Imox Mix

[X-farmerdan]

cagantpr - explain that name to me. I digress. cagantpr, the choice is yours. I, personally, don't see a whole lot of downside to another application of Imox, especially if the smartweed is threatening your clover. Wow. That makes it sound like a matter of life and death! Yes, maybe a label somewhere says to limit yourself to one application per year. Labels are valuable and based on sound research and on the company's desire to protect itself from any liability risk, no matter how small. So, if your project goes south, it's all on you.

Well, I think you can probably get away with another 4 or 5 oz (acre equivalent) application without doing harm to your clover. It, the clover, was planted this year....this spring? And, it's doing well? I did a mega-dose last year about the end of July and was happy with the results.
But, I was ready to lose the clover (I didn't) and had no plans for over-seeding anything. Another does of IMOX and forget that possibility.

 

[dogghr]

I can't say my soil is perfect, but it isn't horrible. Kind of low on PH, which I have been trying to correct for a while. I did the LickCreek rotation for at least 5 seasons (that's why the top end of the field is "new" clover). Unfortunately my deer density is too high. I had success with the WR, but the brassica would get eaten down as soon as it popped. This year I decided to switch over to 100% clover to see if it would hold up better. My smart weed takeover didn't happen until last summer.

I guess the best thing for me will be to just live with the smart weed this year. The older clover isn't infested, so I might actually have enough browse this year. Then, frost seed again next winter and give it all a stronger dose of Imox late next spring.

I'm not sure how your soil tests look, but if you can afford it, I would get the ph to a 6+, and the other amendments to VH levels and I think you will see more bang for your buck no matter what you do.
You prob are already going to, but I'd overseed this fall with a WR which will take up excess moisture, help control weeds, and if left thru summer will shade out a lot of crap. And your problem with brassica is why I suggested throwing them in with the grain, not as a true LC rotation mix.
Also, if you mow, mowing too short or frequent can allow unwanted to move in to plot. Trust me I know of high deer density and heavy browse, it can really affect a plot. And it is for that reason I no longer do the true LC rotation but throw the whole bucket in the mix each year. I hate to always thow it out, but my Buffalo clover plot of mismanaged grasses is almost a weed free plot. There is a reason.
But can't say much as you clover field you showed looks pretty nice. Hope you can kick the nasty stuff. Again good luck.

 

[dogghr]

cagantpr - explain that name to me. I digress. cagantpr, the choice is yours. I, personally, don't see a whole lot of downside to another application of Imox, especially if the smartweed is threatening your clover. Wow. That makes it sound like a matter of life and death! Yes, maybe a label somewhere says to limit yourself to one application per year. Labels are valuable and based on sound research and on the company's desire to protect itself from any liability risk, no matter how small. So, if your project goes south, it's all on you.

Well, I think you can probably get away with another 4 or 5 oz (acre equivalent) application without doing harm to your clover. It, the clover, was planted this year....this spring? And, it's doing well? I did a mega-dose last year about the end of July and was happy with the results.
But, I was ready to lose the clover (I didn't) and had no plans for over-seeding anything. Another does of IMOX and forget that possibility.

I agree with you X, kinda. But the quick jump to a chemical or even sometimes mechanical fix for a problem ignores what is going on to begin with. I know you know that more than me. But I agree, the world will not end with another Imox application but with poor ph and prob soil analysis, I think the dog is barking up the wrong tree.

 

[cagantpr]

cagantpr - explain that name to me. I digress. cagantpr, the choice is yours. I, personally, don't see a whole lot of downside to another application of Imox, especially if the smartweed is threatening your clover. Wow. That makes it sound like a matter of life and death! Yes, maybe a label somewhere says to limit yourself to one application per year. Labels are valuable and based on sound research and on the company's desire to protect itself from any liability risk, no matter how small. So, if your project goes south, it's all on you.

Well, I think you can probably get away with another 4 or 5 oz (acre equivalent) application without doing harm to your clover. It, the clover, was planted this year....this spring? And, it's doing well? I did a mega-dose last year about the end of July and was happy with the results.
But, I was ready to lose the clover (I didn't) and had no plans for over-seeding anything. Another does of IMOX and forget that possibility.

There's the answer I wanted!
Actually, I think I only need to do a couple passes over a very limited area at the very top (beyond the ATV) of the pic I posted. As a matter of fact, the Smart Weed takeover area is so isolated, I wonder if my sprayer clogged up there or something.
cagantpr doesn't have any fun meaning. Its part of an old email address I set up that mashes up my name with the company where I used to work. It was also the name I used on that old forum that shall not be named here. My pic is of Dick Proenneke, though. That is a nod to my building an off the grid cabin on my hunting land. I started in 2012, I expect to be finished at some point.

 

[cagantpr]

I'm not sure how your soil tests look, but if you can afford it, I would get the ph to a 6+, and the other amendments to VH levels and I think you will see more bang for your buck no matter what you do.
You prob are already going to, but I'd overseed this fall with a WR which will take up excess moisture, help control weeds, and if left thru summer will shade out a lot of crap. And your problem with brassica is why I suggested throwing them in with the grain, not as a true LC rotation mix.
Also, if you mow, mowing too short or frequent can allow unwanted to move in to plot. Trust me I know of high deer density and heavy browse, it can really affect a plot. And it is for that reason I no longer do the true LC rotation but throw the whole bucket in the mix each year. I hate to always thow it out, but my Buffalo clover plot of mismanaged grasses is almost a weed free plot. There is a reason.
But can't say much as you clover field you showed looks pretty nice. Hope you can kick the nasty stuff. Again good luck.

I can't get a lime truck in this plot easily. I have 2 more like it that are even less accessible. It would have to weave around the apple and pear trees. I broadcast as much pelletized lime as I can stand to do every year. Last I checked, I had it up to 5.6 - 5.8. I also have great drainage, btw.
I wasn't planning on WR again this fall since I was 100% clover, but I really like your suggestion. It takes very well and I can see how well it builds the soil. I bet it will help with any new clover I need to frost seed too. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[cagantpr]

Here is a pic of a second plot. There is some grass in the clover, but the Smart Weed is gone now. I really am starting to think that my sprayer wasn't working for the Smart Weed takeover portion of the other plot now. Also, the exclusion cages show about 3X clover growth. So, it is probably getting mowed too short, but not at my hand.

 

[dogghr]

Well finally made it back to farm. Five wks since I sprayed the Imox mix.
If you think Cleth requires patience for kill , you best pull up a chair, build a fire, let Triple do a 12 hour butt roast, read about every plant Native Hunter knows, review the Mennonite spray chemical combos he recommends , and re read all the great land threads on here as it is slow to work. Perhaps in part due to monsoons we’ve had this year constantly.
It has killed most grasses and even put a good hurt on the sedges. It set back many weeds like horse nettle ,marstail, and goldenrod. In one field it seems to have prevented reaccurance of thistle which it often had, and inhibed its growth in another. Overall pleased
But since I typically don’t worry much of weeds or grasses in plots, I prob would be just as happy w cleth ive used in past. I also think if I could’ve mowed the clover/alfalfa within couple wks of spraying then the kill would have been even better.
Good stuff but not a miracle spray.

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[Dr. Wally]

With herbicides, its the surfactant that is harmful to water critters. Clearcast/Raptor has no surfactant. I assume IMOX doesn't have surfactant either.

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The label recommends Nitro-surf . It is a surfactant and AMS (similar) source

 

[Mennoniteman]

The label recommends Nitro-surf . It is a surfactant and AMS (similar) source

Yes, Nitro-Surf is a Nitrogen and Surfactant mix intended for use instead of a surfactant and AMS. But the added convenience of using and stocking only one product is offset by the extra cost, and mixing the two products the traditional way works just as good. I buy AMS in 50lb bags for about $13 a bag and crop oil for around $13 per 2 gallons. Nitro-surf is $32 for 2 gallons, and the amount of product is considerably less than the 50lb bag and 2 gallon jug of crop oil. Nitro-surf is also not recommended for use with any Glyphosate product.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Well finally made it back to farm. Five wks since I sprayed the Imox mix.
If you think Cleth requires patience for kill , you best pull up a chair, build a fire, let Triple do a 12 hour butt roast, read about every plant Native Hunter knows, review the Mennonite spray chemical combos he recommends , and re read all the great land threads on here as it is slow to work. Perhaps in part due to monsoons we’ve had this year constantly.
It has killed most grasses and even put a good hurt on the sedges. It set back many weeds like horse nettle ,marstail, and goldenrod. In one field it seems to have prevented reaccurance of thistle which it often had, and inhibed its growth in another. Overall pleased
But since I typically don’t worry much of weeds or grasses in plots, I prob would be just as happy w cleth ive used in past. I also think if I could’ve mowed the clover/alfalfa within couple wks of spraying then the kill would have been even better.
Good stuff but not a miracle spray.

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Not sure if you did it this way but just wanted to point out to others, the Imox and Thunder recommendation is to mow first, then spray right after mowing. This produces faster results, since the weeds are gone (mowed off), the residual in the soil prevents weed regrowth, and the legumes can grow right back without any competition.
Spraying on tall weeds and clover doesn't work well, the tall weeds are harder to kill, and the tall clover prevents the active ingredient from reaching the soil to provide the residual coverage.
P.S. I'm no rocket scientist on chemicals, I just read labels, which is something that all of us should be doing.
Hint: read chemical labels online when you are stranded at O'hare International for 18 hours straight like I am right now. 30 hrs and 5 airports to get from PA to Montana due to thunderstorms.

 

[Lewi B]

Go to the international bar....it's always entertaining.......
BTDT too many times.......

 

[dogghr]

Not sure if you did it this way but just wanted to point out to others, the Imox and Thunder recommendation is to mow first, then spray right after mowing. This produces faster results, since the weeds are gone (mowed off), the residual in the soil prevents weed regrowth, and the legumes can grow right back without any competition.
Spraying on tall weeds and clover doesn't work well, the tall weeds are harder to kill, and the tall clover prevents the active ingredient from reaching the soil to provide the residual coverage.
P.S. I'm no rocket scientist on chemicals, I just read labels, which is something that all of us should be doing.
Hint: read chemical labels online when you are stranded at O'hare International for 18 hours straight like I am right now. 30 hrs and 5 airports to get from PA to Montana due to thunderstorms.

Yea that is how it was done. I have never sprayed tall weeds or grasses as it’s not as effective. Usually mow then spray within the wk.


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[Mennoniteman]

Go to the international bar....it's always entertaining.......
BTDT too many times.......

United Club with free pass.

 

[deer patch]

Dogghr....Any updates on planting turnips and radishes after Imox yet?

 

[dogghr]

Dogghr....Any updates on planting turnips and radishes after Imox yet?

I can give you a limited response. I planted brassica w decent shower few days later. Got good growth of about 10 inches so imox had no limitation on planting. Haven’t been back since early Aug to the farm but since we have had no rain since those showers in July I expect everything is dead from browse and drought. Sept broke 113 yo record for lack of rain and in addition temps have been in 80s daily which is high for my mountains.


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[deer patch]

I can give you a limited response. I planted brassica w decent shower few days later. Got good growth of about 10 inches so imox had no limitation on planting. Haven’t been back since early Aug to the farm but since we have had no rain since those showers in July I expect everything is dead from browse and drought. Sept broke 113 yo record for lack of rain and in addition temps have been in 80s daily which is high for my mountains.


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Thanks for the info. At least we know that it didn't effect your plantings. I may have to try some now. Hopefully you will make it out sometime this season and give another update.

 

[X-farmerdan]

Let me offer this again. To get an EPA registration and regulatory (don't grind your teeth) release to manufacture and sell a herbicide a study on persistence in the environment must be provided. The studies are replicated across different climates and longitudes and latitudes.
How long it takes for the herbicide to breakdown is measured in days to half-life. In simpler words, if you apply 6 oz of product, how many days until there's the equivalent of 3 oz left in the environment? That breakdown depends on a lot of stuff like OM in the soil, rainfall, permeability and porosity of the soil, temperature, etc.

If you use the labelled rate for a crop, the the half life is 35 - to 50 days. Me? I'd be willing to plant most anything after that window closes. If you use a higher does, then you might need to wait. You can play the other factors that influence the soil persistence. The one most interesting to me is water solubility. Seems like lots of rain would quickly render the herbicide inactive quickly. On the other hand.....



The "official" language is below.

Promised half life:
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem_search/reg_actions/registration/fs_PC-129171_22-May-97.pdf
Loss from hydrolysis, photo decomposition, and/or volatilization: Imazamox is hydrolytically stable at pH 5, 7, and 9. Photodegradation is rapid in water (half-life of 6.8 hours) but slow on soil. Volatilization is not significant. Resultant average persistence: The range of dissipation half-lives is 15 to 130 days with the more representative half-lives appearing to be 35 and 50 days. The limited persistence will restrict much of imazamox from reaching ground water.
=============================================================
So herbicidal activity will be affected (on soil) by rate of use. If i use 9 oz, then I'm taking a risk planting in less than 100-150 days. At the 3 oz rate maybe a minimum of 35 to 50 days.