Herbicides for No Till LC Rotation with Marestail

[Brinktown]

We have been using the LC rotation for years and want to now try doing that with a no till drill. This year I burned down the plots with gly (with ams) a day before planting the brassicas on 8/11. Planning to plant my version of the cereal mix (rye, wheat, awp, gfr, clover) Labor Day weekend. We checked the results of our gly burndown last weekend (a week after spraying) and it looked generally good except I could see some resistant marestail.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a good no till herbicide routine for the LC rotation? I’m looking to add something to the gly to control marestail but have learned most of the options require delay after spraying to not affect growth of the brassicas and/or cereal mix. I looked into Liberty/glufosinate but the label says wait 70 days before planting brassicas, rye, wheat.



Ideally, we would mow in early July, plant brassicas in early August, and plant cereal mix early September, and our spray routine would involve spraying at the same time as one or more of those events.

Thanks



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[wsucoug]

Have you tried adding and 2,4 D to your burn down mixture? I add it if in am not spraying and planting the same day. I think there is a 14 to 30 day restriction. I add between 8-16 oz or acre. Mixing instructions attached.

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[X-farmerdan]

No, I don't think you have a effective option for the LC mix. When you say "some resistant marestail," you mean what? Some means acres and acres? A couple plants? Thousands of plants? And is there some marestail that did get eliminated with you initial gly application? I assume these plants are bolting (tall) rather than rosettes?

 

[Brinktown]

Have you tried adding and 2,4 D to your burn down mixture? I add it if in am not spraying and planting the same day. I think there is a 14 to 30 day restriction. I add between 8-16 oz or acre. Mixing instructions attached.

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I haven’t tried 24D yet but it might be the best option to try, thanks. This is my first year trying no till and haven’t needed/wanted such a complete burndown before because usually tilled.


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[Brinktown]

No, I don't think you have a effective option for the LC mix. When you say "some resistant marestail," you mean what? Some means acres and acres? A couple plants? Thousands of plants? And is there some marestail that did get eliminated with you initial gly application? I assume these plants are bolting (tall) rather than rosettes?

We weren’t well prepared this year. We didn’t mow at all this year and sprayed a good dose of gly onto relatively tall weeds that had taken over the spent rye mix and spent brassica mix plots since spring. Here’s a photo of one of the plots as I was spraying.



Here is photo (sorry, blurry) of one of the fields a week after spraying. This is probably the worst field. But I just want to do my homework to keep it from getting worse. The marestail is certainly bolted and 12”+ tall. We don’t have a bad infestation of marestail. I don’t think the gly killed any of it. We have commercial ag fields bordering us.



What about this plan?
Mow early July and that same weekend spray mix of gly and 24D only on the mowed areas planned to be brassicas. Return early August to plant brassica areas and spray mix of gly and 24D on the areas planned to be cereal mix. Return early September to plant the cereal mix. I know there is some question whether 24D would knock out the marestail when bolted but I would hope by mowing it perhaps the 24D would have more effectiveness on shorter plants.




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[wsucoug]

I can not comment on the plan as I have not tried it, but I will add one more thing to your arsenal. Stinger (http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/labels/Stinger.pdf) can be sprayed on your brassicas to knock out marestail...see label. There is a one year planting restriction to go back to broadleaves/legumes, but if you overseed winter rye this fall into your brassicas this fall (fairly heavy), you can leave the plot fallow next summer, then plant next falls LC mix into the rye thatch. Just an option.

 

[X-farmerdan]

Ugh. I wouldn't be so quick to declare gly resistant marestail. I don't mean to be a wise guy, but you're lucky you killed anything a all. I don't know where to start. Let me ask this - what rate of gly did you use and in how much water? And why no-till?

 

[Brinktown]

Ugh. I wouldn't be so quick to declare gly resistant marestail. I don't mean to be a wise guy, but you're lucky you killed anything a all. I don't know where to start. Let me ask this - what rate of gly did you use and in how much water? And why no-till?

We haven’t sprayed any gly on the plots in the last five years because our tiller turns over mowed ground well without needing a kill. But we have routinely needed to spray our rock covered parking area to prevent it from looking like a lawn. In doing that, I have found gly resistant marestail in our parking area, so I presume there is the same out in the fields. Maybe one of your points is gly might be effective if it’s still in the rosette stage, which I probably haven’t tried in our parking area. I think I did end up getting a kill on some of the bolted marestail in the parking area with a really high rate of gly. But it was in a hand sprayer and I don’t remember the mix.

Our boom sprayer sprays 24 gallons per acre at 45 psi, and I used 2 quarts gly per acre with ams. AIXR nozzles on Fimco UTL-7-60. Below is what most of the plots looked like a week later.



I know spraying at that height is not ideal. We aren’t lazy but have two new kids at home and it is difficult to get sleep now much less get away to the farm. We simply didn’t have time to mow and wanted to try to get the plots in for this fall.

One reason for no till is to save time compared to covering the 10 acres with a pto tiller. The other is we thought the moisture conservation would help the plots. When tilling for brassicas we usually lose any moisture we have in the soil and plant into dust. Hoping not losing the moisture and keeping the mulch layer will be an added benefit to the time savings.

Thanks for your help




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[dogghr]

You are going to get lots of opinions on this but keep in mind mine is the only one that is right!!! Seriously, I haven’t had the rototiller out for 6 years now I think. And like you, it did good enough job to not have to use chemical spray with variations of the LC mix.
Now I only broadcast my mixes, most times without spraying to kill standing crop. It is about to die on its own. Sometimes, which I did this year, I do spray and T&M, but for specific reasons I won’t go into now. Personally I think your burn looks good. I wouldn’t worry about some of the green you see, It wont’ affect your outcome.
Here’s how I do it, take it for what its worth. In the LC grain mix, that field is nearly dead by my replanting the brassica mix in to it the following summer Late July/early Aug. Add seed, fert, re fert with urea 30 days later, do a rain dance. In late Oct of that year, I overseed that brassica plot with WR and RC for the winter coverage, which again provides a dying shield the following summer for its rotation into w mix of grain, clover, winter peas, oats about Labor Day.
For the grain mix plots, the following year I broadcast brassica mix as I said July-Aug. Rotated accordingly each year.
Simplify things and keep a good portion of plots in a perennial clover to reduce work and expense and typically guarantee food for deer even if rotational crop weather does not cooperate. Nothing against chemicals, but I don’t use them but once a while and honestly results don’t seem much diff. Good luck and as for chemical tx there are several including those above who can direct you accordingly. Good luck, and kids and family always come first as you know.

 

[X-farmerdan]

Can't go wrong with dogghr's advice. I have an opinion about herbicides and those who use them. Mind if I share? Good! RoundUp / glyphosate has been a miracle! Spray it. It kills stuff. Big, small, in the spring, in the fall, even in the rain, sometimes. Now, the miracle has become an expectation. With high expectations come big disappointments. We are finding places where the miracle won't work.

I'm not a guy that looks in the rear view mirror, too much, unless there's a lesson lingering back there. And I think there is with herbicides. In the past it took some planning and understanding of what was there that needed to be controlled, and some knowledge of the crop that was coming after the crop in the immediate plan. We never expected weed control after the weeds were more than 3 or 4 inches tall. I guess you get where I'm going. Glyphosate has been a wonder. Anybody could kill anything, but that era is about to end.

In regard to the issue above involving possible gly resistant marestail, I'm not ready to go there. With all due respect, Brinktown, there are a lot of things that could have been done better - or not at all. You have a nightmare field to handle. I wouldn't have even attempted to spray it. I'm not sure what I'd have done, to be honest. You probably needed 25 gallons to cover all the vegetation you needed to cover, but, when you do that you dilute the gly concentration. There's some great guidance indicating gly is really, really effective at ultralight gallons per acres - like 5 or 10 gallons with the same amount of gly. But, I don't know if that would have been the right strategy given the level or above ground forage.

If you do have a problem, keep your plots fertile and planted tight all the time. Marestail is a sissy when it comes to competition and shade.
Plant your LC mix and don't worry about it.

 

[Brinktown]

You are going to get lots of opinions on this but keep in mind mine is the only one that is right!!! Seriously, I haven’t had the rototiller out for 6 years now I think. And like you, it did good enough job to not have to use chemical spray with variations of the LC mix.
Now I only broadcast my mixes, most times without spraying to kill standing crop. It is about to die on its own. Sometimes, which I did this year, I do spray and T&M, but for specific reasons I won’t go into now. Personally I think your burn looks good. I wouldn’t worry about some of the green you see, It wont’ affect your outcome.
Here’s how I do it, take it for what its worth. In the LC grain mix, that field is nearly dead by my replanting the brassica mix in to it the following summer Late July/early Aug. Add seed, fert, re fert with urea 30 days later, do a rain dance. In late Oct of that year, I overseed that brassica plot with WR and RC for the winter coverage, which again provides a dying shield the following summer for its rotation into w mix of grain, clover, winter peas, oats about Labor Day.
For the grain mix plots, the following year I broadcast brassica mix as I said July-Aug. Rotated accordingly each year.
Simplify things and keep a good portion of plots in a perennial clover to reduce work and expense and typically guarantee food for deer even if rotational crop weather does not cooperate. Nothing against chemicals, but I don’t use them but once a while and honestly results don’t seem much diff. Good luck and as for chemical tx there are several including those above who can direct you accordingly. Good luck, and kids and family always come first as you know.

Thanks for your advice and sharing your method!


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[Bowhunter]

What about this plan?
Mow early July and that same weekend spray mix of gly and 24D only on the mowed areas planned to be brassicas. Return early August to plant brassica areas and spray mix of gly and 24D on the areas planned to be cereal mix. Return early September to plant the cereal mix. I know there is some question whether 24D would knock out the marestail when bolted but I would hope by mowing it perhaps the 24D would have more effectiveness on shorter plants.
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The only advice I have for you, is to mow and then wait a week or two before spraying. I bet that if you let the young growth come up after mowing and then hit it with the gly then the marestail and everything else won't stand a chance.

I've been using this method when I create a new plot and it has worked very well.