Another Question !😬

[Drycreek]

Y’all did so well on the Elbon Rye question I thought I would press my luck. I’m about to change my entire method of planting. In the past I have went with WW, MRC, Daikon radish, or AWP for my fall plots. Whatever was growing prior to planting I usually nuked with gly. As my soils are sandy, minimal discing was all that was necessary to give the seed some cracks to fall into when I broadcast and dragged with a tire drag. I’ve always managed to have a good wheat crop and it did what it was supposed to do……attract deer.

In the spring I would mow the wheat as the deer had abandoned it, (I never seemed to have much clover overwinter), and nuke it. I only did this if I were planting a spring/summer plot. On my lease this spring I didn’t plant, and at home I planted a Green Cover mix that turned out very well. Even though we haven’t had a rain in a month, and high nineties to hundred degree temps for the same period it still looks pretty darn good. The deer have been hitting it pretty hard.

What I want to do now is broadcast into the standing crop (at home) and crimp it. I’ve tried TnM in the past and hogs ate the seed. If I can broadcast heavy and crimp, maybe I can keep the hogs from eating ALL the seed until it germinates. I’ll have to time it before a rain and that may be tricky. On my lease, I’ll do it the old fashioned way, nuke and lightly disc, with the hope that I can start the new process there next year.

My question is this; what do y’all think of this mix ? Anything to add, anything to leave out ? I could use another Green Cover mix but it has some brassicas in it that I’m pretty sure our deer won’t eat, or eat very little of.

Elbon Rye at 50 lb.
Buckwheat at 20 lb.
Daikon Radish at 5 lb.
Crimson Clover at 10 lb.

I meant to post a pic of the Green Cover mix.

 

[KSQ2]

I would add at least a little chicory, you’re in the same boat with me with rain, meaning lack of it. Chicory is so drought tolerant, it amazes me. Even with little clover to feed it nitrogen, it still hangs on. I’m doubling to amount I’m putting in our fall mix this year. I would also add some medium red clover, it’s cheap and pretty drought tolerant too. All of this is coming from a fella who doesn’t have to deal with hogs at all, so keep that in mind.

 

[KSQ2]

Just to reiterate, as you know, we are in the worst drought of my lifetime and the ONLY hung alive in our regenerative plots is the chicory, I wish there was more of it out there.

 

[Drycreek]

Any other opinions ?

 

[MarkDarvin]

I'd maybe toss in some type of biennial clover that can come with the rye in spring.

X2 for the chicory as well. Go heavy on the chicory.

 

[Drycreek]

How much chicory would you add to the mix I proposed ? Anybody ?

 

[yoderjac]

My comments are referring to the following mix:

Elbon Rye at 50 lb.
Buckwheat at 20 lb.
Daikon Radish at 5 lb.
Crimson Clover at 10 lb.

First, I would not add chicory to this mix. It makes no sense to me. Chicory is a perennial. It can be a great companion to less persistent perennial clover like Ladino. I used it with Ladino for many years. When I switched to Durana, which is more drought tolerant and persistent, I found it was not worth it. In my area, in dry years, the Durana only goes dormant for a small time unlike Ladino which went dormant much of the summer when chicory shined. Durana is slow to establish but more aggressive than ladino and in a couple years out-competes the chicory. So for me, benefit of chicory was not worth the added cost.

The mix you mention is a fall oriented mix. The buckwheat is a bit unconventional as it is not cold tolerant. It can work well as an early season attractant. It dies at the first frost and makes room for other seeds in the mix. I would say that 20 lbs/ac is a pretty high rate for buckwheat in a mix. Buckwheat is a short-lived annual that germinates much faster than most fall seed. It can shade out other plants in your mix if the rate is too heavy. In most cases, I won't go heavier than 10 lbs/ac in a general mix.

Crimsion clover is an annual clover, but in my area it acts as a reseeding annual. That will depend on your location. I like it in the mix. I find it bounces back in the spring and becomes the primary food source when the WR begins to get rank.

As for adding seed, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. For example, if one was concerned about late season food (in some locations like mine in 7A), I'd cut the radish rate down to about 3 lbs/ac and add 2 lbs/ac of PTT. In my area, the deer would first be attracted to the young buckwheat which would germinate first, and then the young WR. The also will hit the radish tops early. As the season progresses here, they begin to hit the radish tubers. They don't hit the PTT leaves until after a couple frosts unless we have a mast crop failure. I don't think the frost are the driver, just coincident with deer use. Finally, after our season is over, in late Jan and Feb, the deer hit the turnip bulbs hard.

Best of luck!

 

[KSQ2]

How much chicory would you add to the mix I proposed ? Anybody ?

I’m adding 5 lb to the acre of forb feast chicory to our fall Mix this year. And this is putting it in conventionally in most of the plots, where germination rate will be very high.
I usually agree with Yoder, but with the droughts you and I are facing, I couldn’t disagree more. Chicory is bulletproof, clover is not. We are not battling “normal droughts”, you and I….

 

[Drycreek]

I’m adding 5 lb to the acre of forb feast chicory to our fall Mix this year. And this is putting it in conventionally in most of the plots, where germination rate will be very high.
I usually agree with Yoder, but with the droughts you and I are facing, I couldn’t disagree more. Chicory is bulletproof, clover is not. We are not battling “normal droughts”, you and I….

Correct ! My county and the surrounding counties just put us all in the fire ban. We got some timely rains this spring but the spigot is off now, hell I’m even running a well into my pond. I hope this is not a repeat of 2011 !

 

[Drycreek]

My comments are referring to the following mix:

Elbon Rye at 50 lb.
Buckwheat at 20 lb.
Daikon Radish at 5 lb.
Crimson Clover at 10 lb.

First, I would not add chicory to this mix. It makes no sense to me. Chicory is a perennial. It can be a great companion to less persistent perennial clover like Ladino. I used it with Ladino for many years. When I switched to Durana, which is more drought tolerant and persistent, I found it was not worth it. In my area, in dry years, the Durana only goes dormant for a small time unlike Ladino which went dormant much of the summer when chicory shined. Durana is slow to establish but more aggressive than ladino and in a couple years out-competes the chicory. So for me, benefit of chicory was not worth the added cost.

The mix you mention is a fall oriented mix. The buckwheat is a bit unconventional as it is not cold tolerant. It can work well as an early season attractant. It dies at the first frost and makes room for other seeds in the mix. I would say that 20 lbs/ac is a pretty high rate for buckwheat in a mix. Buckwheat is a short-lived annual that germinates much faster than most fall seed. It can shade out other plants in your mix if the rate is too heavy. In most cases, I won't go heavier than 10 lbs/ac in a general mix.

Crimsion clover is an annual clover, but in my area it acts as a reseeding annual. That will depend on your location. I like it in the mix. I find it bounces back in the spring and becomes the primary food source when the WR begins to get rank.

As for adding seed, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. For example, if one was concerned about late season food (in some locations like mine in 7A), I'd cut the radish rate down to about 3 lbs/ac and add 2 lbs/ac of PTT. In my area, the deer would first be attracted to the young buckwheat which would germinate first, and then the young WR. The also will hit the radish tops early. As the season progresses here, they begin to hit the radish tubers. They don't hit the PTT leaves until after a couple frosts unless we have a mast crop failure. I don't think the frost are the driver, just coincident with deer use. Finally, after our season is over, in late Jan and Feb, the deer hit the turnip bulbs hard.

Best of luck!

I can understand cutting the buckwheat rate down and I know it will die at frost. The PTT I’ve planted before and the deer, or even the hogs, would not touch them. I even pulled some up and piled them for the hogs and no takers ! I ain’t seen much that a hog won’t eat but they wouldn’t eat the turnips. I grew a wonderful brassica plot one year, Frigid Forage brand, and nothing ate them either. I think brassicas, turnips, and the like do better in a colder climate. I know this sounds funny, but “my” deer will literally tear the daikon radish tops up, but won’t eat the root. Maybe it’s a Southern thang.

 

[KSQ2]

I can understand cutting the buckwheat rate down and I know it will die at frost. The PTT I’ve planted before and the deer, or even the hogs, would not touch them. I even pulled some up and piled them for the hogs and no takers ! I ain’t seen much that a hog won’t eat but they wouldn’t eat the turnips. I grew a wonderful brassica plot one year, Frigid Forage brand, and nothing ate them either. I think brassicas, turnips, and the like do better in a colder climate. I know this sounds funny, but “my” deer will literally tear the daikon radish tops up, but won’t eat the root. Maybe it’s a Southern thang.

You might be onto something with the brassicas down south, besides the forage radishes, our deer won't touch them either UNTIL it gets frigid, usually the tail end of season on into the heart of winter.

 

[yoderjac]

I can understand cutting the buckwheat rate down and I know it will die at frost. The PTT I’ve planted before and the deer, or even the hogs, would not touch them. I even pulled some up and piled them for the hogs and no takers ! I ain’t seen much that a hog won’t eat but they wouldn’t eat the turnips. I grew a wonderful brassica plot one year, Frigid Forage brand, and nothing ate them either. I think brassicas, turnips, and the like do better in a colder climate. I know this sounds funny, but “my” deer will literally tear the daikon radish tops up, but won’t eat the root. Maybe it’s a Southern thang.

A lot depends on deer densities and habitat in general. As for PTT, deer did not touch it for the first 3 years that I grew it. Then in the 4th year, we had a mast crop failure. That year, they ate everything in our plots including PTT bulbs. Every since then, they still ignore the PTT until late season, but hit it pretty hard in the winter.

Sometime deer need to learn that a food that is new to them is a good resource. It took that mast crop failure to acclimate my deer to PTT. We don't have hogs here (yet) fortunately. I can't speak to them. My deer certainly prefer radish over PTT. We are a bit undersized for it, but we are trying to do QDM. So, the fact that the deer leave the PTT until later in the winter is a good thing as it helps fill that gap when acorns are not bountiful.

 

[MarkDarvin]

How much chicory would you add to the mix I proposed ? Anybody ?

At least 5 lbs/ac. I wouldn't shirk away from 8lbs per acre either. Perennial plots are a killer on the pocketbook to establish, but they pay dividends for years. My longest running stand of chicory was planted in 2019, and it's as thick as ever this year. Just close your eyes and slide the credit card. You'll be glad you did.

 

[yoderjac]

My comments are referring to the following mix:

Elbon Rye at 50 lb.
Buckwheat at 20 lb.
Daikon Radish at 5 lb.
Crimson Clover at 10 lb.

First, I would not add chicory to this mix. It makes no sense to me. Chicory is a perennial. It can be a great companion to less persistent perennial clover like Ladino. I used it with Ladino for many years. When I switched to Durana, which is more drought tolerant and persistent, I found it was not worth it. In my area, in dry years, the Durana only goes dormant for a small time unlike Ladino which went dormant much of the summer when chicory shined. Durana is slow to establish but more aggressive than ladino and in a couple years out-competes the chicory. So for me, benefit of chicory was not worth the added cost.

The mix you mention is a fall oriented mix. The buckwheat is a bit unconventional as it is not cold tolerant. It can work well as an early season attractant. It dies at the first frost and makes room for other seeds in the mix. I would say that 20 lbs/ac is a pretty high rate for buckwheat in a mix. Buckwheat is a short-lived annual that germinates much faster than most fall seed. It can shade out other plants in your mix if the rate is too heavy. In most cases, I won't go heavier than 10 lbs/ac in a general mix.

Crimsion clover is an annual clover, but in my area it acts as a reseeding annual. That will depend on your location. I like it in the mix. I find it bounces back in the spring and becomes the primary food source when the WR begins to get rank.

As for adding seed, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. For example, if one was concerned about late season food (in some locations like mine in 7A), I'd cut the radish rate down to about 3 lbs/ac and add 2 lbs/ac of PTT. In my area, the deer would first be attracted to the young buckwheat which would germinate first, and then the young WR. The also will hit the radish tops early. As the season progresses here, they begin to hit the radish tubers. They don't hit the PTT leaves until after a couple frosts unless we have a mast crop failure. I don't think the frost are the driver, just coincident with deer use. Finally, after our season is over, in late Jan and Feb, the deer hit the turnip bulbs hard.

Best of luck!

If you do add the chicory, I'd replace the Crimson clover with a perennial clover. If it is going to be a perennial plot for the long run it makes sense to use a long-lived clover rather than a reseeding annual. I typically uses the Crimson when I'm going to replant a buckwheat/sunn hemp mix for summer.

 

[Drycreek]

It won’t be a perennial plot, it will go into another mix next spring.

 

[yoderjac]

It won’t be a perennial plot, it will go into another mix next spring.

That is why the chicory makes no sense to me. It is a perennial that does take time to establish. In order to get any real value out of chicory, it needs to be in a perennial plot.

 

[KSQ2]

It won’t be a perennial plot, it will go into another mix next spring.

Will you be working ground this-coming spring, or throw and mow/no-till? If you’re working ground, I agree with yoder, chicory would be a waste of money.

 

[yoderjac]

Will you be working ground this-coming spring, or throw and mow/no-till? If you’re working ground, I agree with yoder, chicory would be a waste of money.

Or burning down with gly or Liberty before planting in the spring.

 

[KSQ2]

Or burning down with gly or Liberty before planting in the spring.

Chicory will survive cleth just as well as clover.

 

[yoderjac]

Chicory will survive cleth just as well as clover.

It can be hard for a spring plant to compete with even annual clover and chicory in the south as they have a head start. I don't find Cleth effective for a pre-plant burndown in the spring in my area. It will kill the WR, but not my Crimson Clover which will hurt germination in my area.