Now is the Time for Clover Plot Maintenance

[dogghr]

I agree w the 0-20-20. But in part it depends on the soil. My ridgetop plots simply perform better when fertilized and my bottom plots could care less. The upper soils are poor and even tho soil tests are very high in all categories ,I think the poor texture does not allow uptake of nutrients easily as do the lower plots thus requiring addendum.

That’s why I often rag Native as his 20 ft of topsoil in his Eden would grow dollar bills. And the fact he’s good at it but I don’t want him get the big head bragging about his plots and fescue!!


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[Native Hunter]

I agree w the 0-20-20. But in part it depends on the soil. My ridgetop plots simply perform better when fertilized and my bottom plots could care less. The upper soils are poor and even tho soil tests are very high in all categories ,I think the poor texture does not allow uptake of nutrients easily as do the lower plots thus requiring addendum.

That’s why I often rag Native as his 20 ft of topsoil in his Eden would grow dollar bills. And the fact he’s good at it but I don’t want him get the big head bragging about his plots and fescue!!

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I know you are trying to get me to post the picture of the Fescue Monument, but instead I will just come over this fall and sew you a new batch of fescue seed.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I agree w the 0-20-20. But in part it depends on the soil. My ridgetop plots simply perform better when fertilized and my bottom plots could care less. The upper soils are poor and even tho soil tests are very high in all categories ,I think the poor texture does not allow uptake of nutrients easily as do the lower plots thus requiring addendum.

That’s why I often rag Native as his 20 ft of topsoil in his Eden would grow dollar bills. And the fact he’s good at it but I don’t want him get the big head bragging about his plots and fescue!!


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What is the difference between a hippie and a true Kentucky farmer?
A hippie cultivates weed and calls it mind blowing. A Kentucky farmer cultivates a specific weed and calls it Kentucky 31
(Sorry @Native Hunter i couldn't resist picking on good ole Kentuckybluegrass. But this gives you the right to pick on the mennonites)

 

[Native Hunter]

What is the difference between a hippie and a true Kentucky farmer?
A hippie cultivates weed and calls it mind blowing. A Kentucky farmer cultivates a specific weed and calls it Kentucky 31
(Sorry @Native Hunter i couldn't resist picking on good ole Kentuckybluegrass. But this gives you the right to pick on the mennonites)

Looks like I have one more stop to make on my upcoming fescue seed tour.

 

[MarkDarvin]

4 years ago a locally renowned forester told me that I have the nicest plot of Ladino Clover that he has ever seen. My heart was filled with pride, and I decided that growing clover was the easiest plot species that there is. In fact, growing clover was so easy that I just totally stopped buying fertilizer for several plots, since it seemed like a waste of money if clover is such an easy crop to grow. My thought process followed a popular food plot myth that no crop is being removed from a food plot because the deer are replacing the nutrients they consume with deer droppings.
However, after 3 full years of growing those clover plots without fertilizer I have been brought to my knees and humbled in the worst way possible. After three years of no fertilizer, what was my best number one award winning clover plot before, is a total failure now, even though I have applied my best efforts to keep it alive, other than applying fertilizer of course, since I was doing this as a test to see if fertilizer is really necessary, and how long I can keep clover going without fertilizer, and I admit that I was totally convinced that i could keep these plots going indefinitely without applying any fertilizer.
Well, the end result has come in. In spite of my best efforts, this plot is totally up in weeds with very little clover. So I have to admit that I will have to change my philosophy on growing clover, since, on the first post of this thread I stated: fertilizer for clover is important, but not my top priority. (edited now to say top priority)
My new philosophy for growing clover reads like this: #1; Anyone can grow clover if they have 0-20-20 fertilizer.
#2; Even expert farmers will have difficulty growing clover if they don't have 0-20-20 fertilizer.
I have over a dozen clover plots on 5 different properties in 3 different counties, and I only did the no fertilizer experiment on some of them, and there is a clear pattern of connection between the lack of fertilizer application and the planted clover fading out.
I tried alternating multiple different herbicides, but the weeds still took over. Out of desperation to get ahead of the weeds and save the one plot I tank mixed several clover herbicides together, and killed everything! I frost seeded and interseeded fresh seed, but the bare spots persisted.
I drilled small grains into the plots to scavenge nutrients and smother weeds. This actually worked to a degree on one plot and shows a lot of potential, but it needs to be very intensive, done at least twice a year, and the failed plots were only seeded with grain once a year or less. I don't think that seeding small grain into clover can be a total replacement for fertilizer, but I believe it can be a valuable tool to reduce the amount of fertilizer needed, and the cost of the small grain seeding can be recouped in the dollar value of the fertilizer savings, plus getting the soil building properties and wildlife feeding values of the grain for free as a bonus.
So, along with a yearly dose of herbicide, lime to keep the ph around 6.8, and a twice a summer mowing, 200-400 lb per acre of 0-20-20 fertilizer (or whatever the soil tests call for) is VERY important to have a good stand of clover.
In the attached picture below there are three beautiful gobblers, standing on an ugly plot with no clover. This is still prime turkey habitat, but there's very little here for a deer, and the deer voiced their displeasure to me by going elsewhere for lunch. So, by default of no grazing vs intensive grazing when my plot was good, fertilizer does have a direct input in growing big antlers.

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What kind of weeds took over? I wonder if the same would happen with a native clover like dutch white? 3 years seems really fast for a clover plot to peter out.

I still use some ladino in my blends, but I've switched back to dutch white, no so much because it's native, but because I was hoping it wouldn't be so quick and aggressive to canopy like ladino.

 

[Native Hunter]

Smartweed is what eventually causes me to have to redo a clover plot. The deer eat the clover but ignore the smartweed. You can’t mow it low enough to keep it from reseeding. So, how do others deal with smartweed where it’s prevalent? Keep in mind that I like chicory in my plots too.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Smartweed is what eventually causes me to have to redo a clover plot. The deer eat the clover but ignore the smartweed. You can’t mow it low enough to keep it from reseeding. So, how do others deal with smartweed where it’s prevalent? Keep in mind that I like chicory in my plots too.

Smartweed is a PITA. It's always growing when the clover is stressed, so it's hard to not injure clover. And it's a "good seeder".

 

[Native Hunter]

Smartweed is a PITA. It's always growing when the clover is stressed, so it's hard to not injure clover. And it's a "good seeder".

A good, effective and affordable pre-emergent herbicide would solve the problem. I could keep plots going forever, because I can deal with all of the other weeds on my place.

 

[Mennoniteman]

A good, effective and affordable pre-emergent herbicide would solve the problem. I could keep plots going forever, because I can deal with all of the other weeds on my place.

Some people report good success spraying smartweed in clover with Butyrac200. Smartweed is a broadleaf and Butyrac200 is a broadleaf killer so it might work, but i would mow first, then spray several days after mowing. I have also killed smartweed with imazethapyr 2sl by mowing first in midsummer right after it emerges, waiting several days, then hitting it with 4oz to the acre and 0-20-20 fertilizer all at the same time.
The best weapon to use keeping clover weed free is to keep the clover that thick and healthy that it chokes out the weeds by using lots of lime and fertilizer, with herbicide for additional help as needed. A case in point; I've had a perfect, weed free 2 acre clover patch that I pulled up sod divots from turning too aggressively with my mowing tractor, and within a week ragweed and marestail weeds werr popping up on the exposed soil in the middle of a lush clover field, proving that the weed seeds were present all along, but the clover choked them out or kept them from germinating.
A successful clover stand is easy, as long as you don't skip any of the necessary steps, and don't have an excessive drought. As I just recently proved, something as simple as skipping fertilizer will allow weeds all the edge that they need to take over.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Smartweed is a PITA. It's always growing when the clover is stressed, so it's hard to not injure clover. And it's a "good seeder".

You are correct, that's a tough time to work on clover. I like to mow spray and fertilize clover before or right after the midsummer heat and drought.

 

[Mennoniteman]

What kind of weeds took over? I wonder if the same would happen with a native clover like dutch white? 3 years seems really fast for a clover plot to peter out.

I still use some ladino in my blends, but I've switched back to dutch white, no so much because it's native, but because I was hoping it wouldn't be so quick and aggressive to canopy like ladino.

The weeds that took over my clover plots were all the usual fastgrowing suspects; cattails, ragweed, marestail, wild pickles, etc. I think that it became a case of whatever was around was filling a void, the stronger overcoming the weaker because too much sunshine was hitting the ground.
Although I'm like you in the area of always being on the lookout for a better clover, I do like the quick and aggressive traits of Ladino, it seems like the perfect deer clover. White Dutch clover doesn't give us the volume of forage that we need to hold our deer, and Red clover takes too much mowing and maintenance to keep it nice.

 

[RGrizzzz]

You are correct, that's a tough time to work on clover. I like to mow spray and fertilize clover before or right after the midsummer heat and drought.

The hard part is getting to camp at the right time to do the mowing and spraying. The PA drought this year has been problematic.

 

[Native Hunter]

Some people report good success spraying smartweed in clover with Butyrac200. Smartweed is a broadleaf and Butyrac200 is a broadleaf killer so it might work, but i would mow first, then spray several days after mowing. I have also killed smartweed with imazethapyr 2sl by mowing first in midsummer right after it emerges, waiting several days, then hitting it with 4oz to the acre and 0-20-20 fertilizer all at the same time.
The best weapon to use keeping clover weed free is to keep the clover that thick and healthy that it chokes out the weeds by using lots of lime and fertilizer, with herbicide for additional help as needed. A case in point; I've had a perfect, weed free 2 acre clover patch that I pulled up sod divots from turning too aggressively with my mowing tractor, and within a week ragweed and marestail weeds werr popping up on the exposed soil in the middle of a lush clover field, proving that the weed seeds were present all along, but the clover choked them out or kept them from germinating.
A successful clover stand is easy, as long as you don't skip any of the necessary steps, and don't have an excessive drought. As I just recently proved, something as simple as skipping fertilizer will allow weeds all the edge that they need to take over.

Butyrac200 would probably work for me if it wasn’t for my chicory. I do have a couple of pure clover plots but I really like chicory in most.

 

[Mennoniteman]

The hard part is getting to camp at the right time to do the mowing and spraying. The PA drought this year has been problematic.

I hear you. I have more than a 2 hour drive to my main food plots, and, while we didn't quite have a drought, it's been uncommonly dry the last two summers, and that made everything about taking care of our food plots more difficult. I usually depend on May and June for lots of growth to get us through the hot and dry weather in the middle of the summer, but the past two years have been dry in May and June, and this has been especially hard on our nicest clover plots.

 

[dogghr]

You know MM we have different opinions on managing clover especially keeping it weed and grass free. But I will say Goldenrod has become my nemesis in recent years in them.
And the only thing I’ve changed to allow this is failure to apply your 0-20-20 and Boron on a yearly basis as I used to do. Deer unlike cattle do not replenish pasture with their excrement. Different makeup and texture w no dung beetles promoting nutrient return to soils.
This fall begins my 10 month crusade to regain control.
As for redoing a clover plot. Never again.


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[Mennoniteman]

You know MM we have different opinions on managing clover especially keeping it weed and grass free. But I will say Goldenrod has become my nemesis in recent years in them.
And the only thing I’ve changed to allow this is failure to apply your 0-20-20 and Boron on a yearly basis as I used to do. Deer unlike cattle do not replenish pasture with their excrement. Different makeup and texture w no dung beetles promoting nutrient return to soils.
This fall begins my 10 month crusade to regain control.
As for redoing a clover plot. Never again.


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I wouldn't say that we even have different opinions on clover management, most of the time we are both saying the same thing in a different way. My clover management is about exactly the same as yours, but I generally take mine a step further than you. I actually have one balanced clover plot on the powerline that would make you proud of me, I haven't done anything but mow in ten years and it was still going strong, with the clover maintaining a balance between it and some assorted grasses all on it's own, with a little input tweaking from me to get it started. However, my loggers have been turning their 18 wheelers around on it for the past month, and its totally gone right now, so I need your recommendation to get it started again...

 

[dogghr]

I wouldn't say that we even have different opinions on clover management, most of the time we are both saying the same thing in a different way. My clover management is about exactly the same as yours, but I generally take mine a step further than you. I actually have one balanced clover plot on the powerline that would make you proud of me, I haven't done anything but mow in ten years and it was still going strong, with the clover maintaining a balance between it and some assorted grasses all on it's own, with a little input tweaking from me to get it started. However, my loggers have been turning their 18 wheelers around on it for the past month, and its totally gone right now, so I need your recommendation to get it started again...

I don’t think any thing can really kill WC, except logging trucks and their compaction. I am about to deal with the same as loggers move in to my place this fall.
And I’m sure you already know what to do with your experience. I would probably go at it with a subsoiler, broadcast heavy WR, and a mix of WC, RC, and a tubor brassica, assuming you are attacking it this fall.
Good luck and always enjoy your posts, especially your chemical spray knowledge.

 

[Mennoniteman]

A rite of spring; March 25th, out on the tractor no-tilling 100 lb oats per acre into my existing clover plots. Last year I sprayed herbicide for grass on the clover plots in the early spring, so this year I'm skipping that step because I killed most of the early grasses last year, but I do have a bit of cattails and other late season grasses, so this year I will move my seasonal spray to late summer for these late season grasses, sometime after the oats mature. I'll probably let the oats ripen and the turkeys and deer will eat the seed heads. A little known fact is that deer love eating oat heads.
Last fall I drilled oats into this clover, which winterkilled, the remnants of those oats can be seen in the picture. The fall oats and clover combo was a huge hit with the deer, but I'm still asking myself why I didn't drill fall rye instead, because I wouldn't need to be out here drilling oats right now, because the rye would still be growing. As I recall, it had something to do with price and availability...
I also threw a bag of Regal Graze clover into the small seed box, set at 4 lb per acre, just as insurance to keep my clover plots in good population.
Notes: broadcasting these oats would take 200 lb per acre, when drilling, every seed grows, when broadcasting, half the seeds grow.
Also, as you can see by the soil on the closing wheels, it was a bit wet, to wet to plant corn, but early oats will do just fine in this moisture.

Aug 27th, I'm finally getting back into this clover plot for the first time since the March 26th oats, 400 lbs ac of 0-20-20, drilling fall rye, radishes, and mowing.

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