The New Coyote and Other Predators..... Can You Win?
- Thread starter dogghr
- Start date
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Yep, this thread has been more fun than a barrel of dead coyotes....err....I mean a barrel of monkeys....
Perhaps even a better thread would be: The New Modern Man....Can you win??? Most of the ills of nature and unbalances are a result of what we as humans do and have nothing to do with the glorious and magnificent intelligent way it was designed.
In ending, I will say that I can get along with anyone who has good intentions and good character. My life is a testament to that fact.
But, if you need pizza insurance or software to tell you when and where your dog pooped, I'm going to be at least a little suspicious of you...
Thanks again dogghr for all the fun.............
Perhaps even a better thread would be: The New Modern Man....Can you win??? Most of the ills of nature and unbalances are a result of what we as humans do and have nothing to do with the glorious and magnificent intelligent way it was designed.
In ending, I will say that I can get along with anyone who has good intentions and good character. My life is a testament to that fact.
But, if you need pizza insurance or software to tell you when and where your dog pooped, I'm going to be at least a little suspicious of you...
Thanks again dogghr for all the fun.............
I agree with most of that Swampcat, especially the last line, that is a mouthful. I do disagree with removal of coyote makes the remaining ones less effective. Most any study along those lines show when the hierarchy is disrupted, the less dominant then work harder to be the alpha and that leads to more game loss. I've seen that on my own place and why I have the respect of my grey bearded alpha and I think why he would walk thru a bedding area without hardly a sniff of the does laying there as I described in my first post.
I really do agree with most of what everyone has posted on this thread. But I especially want the newby, that is bombarded by how the predator is destroying all his work to realize there is somewhat a balance in the web and that there are other ways to help circumvent the issue if they don't or can't shoot or trap predator.
They are a real problem in many areas of the country and if a property has the fawning and bedding cover adequate then predator removal is much more effective when done. I certainly know predators don't sit around the campfire with their prey singing KumBaYa and they can be a factor in management .
I appreciate the civility of all these comments and have really enjoyed all the opinions and hopefully I didn't sound too gruff on some of my late night tirades. Its snow and zero deg so off the farm to drop some trees for midwinter snacks for my deer. Luckily was a great hard mast this year because its been a nasty one. Maybe I'll see a coyote searching for mice in the snow.
It does take all viewpoints to provide someone pondering the same questions the full story. What that person has to understand is that someone who has never been to his place can not supply him the answers because they, unconsciously, will be basing their response on their own circumstances. I also think someone considering predator removal to increase game populations needs to set realistic expectations. I think a lot of the studies come to conclusions based upon not providing exceptional results. One of the state biologists told me that removal of predators would not provide any “Substantial” results and that it was expensive and would have to be done every year to achieve any ongoing results - that I would be better off improving my habitat. “Substantial” is a subjective word. I dont expect a 100% increase in fawn recruitment - if I could average 10 to 20 percent increase per year - I am esctatic. And for someone like me who lives on their own property - trapping is as inexpensive as any management technique I have ever employed. And I dont believe me taking two or three coyotes from the population in May is going to spur an increase in the reproductive rate a year later or a mass migration of coyotes into the area. And yes, I believe as hunters, most of us understand the very basis for hunting is that we kill game this year, they repopulate, and we kill some next year - and the next. That is not a foreign concept to us - yet the authors of a lot of the coyote studies always expound on the fact that coyotes would have to be removed every year to have any long term effect. Well, no kidding. I have been in the wildlife management business for forty years and have found “one and done” techniques to be pretty much non-existent. And the concept “you should spend your time improving the habitat” instead of removing predators. Talk about something that is expensive and time consuming - I have 350 acres and my annual habitat improvement and maintenance cost budget is well into five figures every year - and I am working on it pretty much year round. Trapping coyotes for two weeks is about the cheapest, least labor intensive thing that I do.
And you can talk to the very same biologist about hogs and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is “you have to trap them to have any effect”. Studies have shown you have to remove 75% of the hog population to stay even. That takes a lot of time, expense and effort to do that. I know - I trap hogs too. So why do they tell me to to trap hogs and dont bother to trap coyotes? They will even furnish hog traps. I promise, coyotes kill far more fawns every year than do hogs.
And, as Baker has said - they remove coons in an effort to increase turkey nesting success - why not adise removing coyotes to increase fawn recruitment. Because the areas he deer hunts have plenty of deer and a low number of turkeys. If that were reversed - if he was hearing a dozen gobblers every morning of season and seeing a lone spike buck every three days of hunting and had a fawn recruitment of .25 - he might well be trapping coyotes instead of coons.
I would not recommend right off the cuff that someone “needs” to remove the predators on their place. To me, it is more of a last resort - or - something integrated in to your entire management plan. But, I would recommend that anyone that does any management work needs to partake in a least a little trapping. If only for the reason that trapping is one of the best learning tools there is when it comes to wildlife. You will pay more attention to where animals travel, pay more attention to different food sources, what animals have been eating, etc. i have always said biologists can give a good guess on how many animals there are, what they are eating and where they are living. A trapper can tell you all that - and where they are going to put their foot. Trapping is a great sport to get kids invloved in the outdoors. There is the anticipation as you approach each trap. It is a learning experience of all things wildlife related. You see animals up close and personal. And you dont have to be still or quiet. And it is inexpensive.
And to reflect on something I previously indicated - that predator removal is an ongoing process - maybe it isnt. Maybe the coyote removal, not shooting does, habitat improvement, consecutive years of favorable weather - all combine to increase deer populations to the point that the number of does present are able to produce enough fawns - regardless of fawn recruitment numbers - that coyote removal in no longer necessary. To be honest, of the nearly forty years I have lived here, it has only been the last five years that I thought coyote removal might be warranted to improve deer populations. It was probably five years ago - our bow season opened mid-september and our muzzle loading season opened about Oct 20. I hunted at least part of every day with the exception of three days - from opening of bow season to the first first day of muzzle loading season. The first deer I saw was opening day of ML season - a spike - which is not a legal animal in my state. Neither me or my wife killed a deer that year. That is when you know you have to pull out all stops.
I think most of us who live, eat, and sleep managing our wildlife, would probably exhaust all possibilities in attempt to increase the population. I had always trapped off and on - but never with the intent of doing it to increase the population of another animal. My first efforts were during the winter trapping season - and I will concur with the studies that say in most cases, the animals removed will be replaced within a few months. My experience is that the removal needs to be just prior to fawning season - especially on a small scale effort which most of us will experience. I am not saying it would work for everyone or that everyone has the capabilities. It is just one more tool in the bag.
As someone with a healthy hog population - do you notice much coyote scat containing hog hair?
Jeff H
Well-Known Member
I've just discovered and read through MOST every word on this thread this morning. Yes, I've passed over some of the repetitious long winded parts. Sorry trying to work a job and read this thread at the same time.
The one thing that really jumps out at me is the nature in which you gentlemen who have differing views are conducting yourselves. On so many other forums this kind of subject would have been derailed two pages ago!
It's probably the sole reason I continue to read and to some degree participate here and nowhere else.
It's so very easy I suppose to flame someone half a country away via your keyboard. Restraint has been applied here and it's a testament to your character. Nice job fellas! Great discussion. Carry on.
The one thing that really jumps out at me is the nature in which you gentlemen who have differing views are conducting yourselves. On so many other forums this kind of subject would have been derailed two pages ago!
It's probably the sole reason I continue to read and to some degree participate here and nowhere else.
It's so very easy I suppose to flame someone half a country away via your keyboard. Restraint has been applied here and it's a testament to your character. Nice job fellas! Great discussion. Carry on.
Yep, this thread has been more fun than a barrel of dead coyotes....err....I mean a barrel of monkeys....
Perhaps even a better thread would be: The New Modern Man....Can you win??? Most of the ills of nature and unbalances are a result of what we as humans do and have nothing to do with the glorious and magnificent intelligent way it was designed.
In ending, I will say that I can get along with anyone who has good intentions and good character. My life is a testament to that fact.
But, if you need pizza insurance or software to tell you when and where your dog pooped, I'm going to be at least a little suspicious of you...
Thanks again dogghr for all the fun.............
Easy to see that hunting season is over, folks have some discretionary time on their hands and we are all fidgety spending time on hunting forums. I think your idea of new threads to fully occupy our time and maybe even get everyone worked up is solid.Here's a partial list of options which I'm sure others may want to add too that might occupy us till next season.
The new modern man
Culling bucks and how that improves genetics
shooting spikes
boycotting the NFL cause they take a knee
the many values of game fencing
CWD
deer breeders
how to increase the worm population in your food plots
is round up safe
BOB vs generic
......I'll stop there but it is a target rich environment!
I've just discovered and read through MOST every word on this thread this morning. Yes, I've passed over some of the repetitious long winded parts. Sorry trying to work a job and read this thread at the same time.
The one thing that really jumps out at me is the nature in which you gentlemen who have differing views are conducting yourselves. On so many other forums this kind of subject would have been derailed two pages ago!
It's probably the sole reason I continue to read and to some degree participate here and nowhere else.
It's so very easy I suppose to flame someone half a country away via your keyboard. Restraint has been applied here and it's a testament to your character. Nice job fellas! Great discussion. Carry on.
I learned long ago the value of listening to someone with a different point of view. A narrow mind will offer you a limited set of solutions. I have a sideline business and one partner. Our viewpoints on most things are almost 180 degrees apart. I believe in function over form - he thinks a part has to look sexy. I believe in lower pricing to sell more - he believes in higher profit margins and sell less. And the list goes on. But, I believe our differing viewpoints has been what has kept us in business for thirty years - he sees things I dont see and I see things he doesnt see - and we usually meet somewhere in the middle. A lot of times when managing your wildlife - there is no one right way to do something all across the country. Form your own opinions based upon your experiences on your own ground - but always keep an open mind. We are never too old or too smart to learn something new.
Hunting season over? Our bow season is still going and I am hard after the squirrels and coons. Fortunately, though, it is winding down because the crappie are hungry. Then it will be the white bass runnning and bedding bass, and have to find time right in the middle of all of it to hunt some turkeys and catch some frogs. All that right in the middle of spring planting season. I wish there were 48 hours in a day.
I think you and I have a lot in common. I too am retired...well mostly..and spend most of my time hunting , fishing, managing a farm and ranch, and when I'm not doing it actively I'm either reading or dreaming about it. I also see where you once lived in the great state of La. [ where ] Born and raised here myself and have the privilege of living within 5 miles of where i was born. And but for a dream I had one night I too would have been a biologist. Nonetheless have had the privilege of working with some of the best biologist both wildlife and fisheries in the entire nation.
Keep the posts coming
Sounds like you made the right decision in NOT pursuing a professional career in wildlife management.
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
If you get complete agreement on any of those I will vote for you to be the Governor of LA and the President of Mexico at the same time!
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Reliable sources claim that the Pennsylvania Game Commission traded turkeys for coyotes with a western state in the eighties, and then stocked the coyotes in our fair state. True or not, by the early 2000's state biologists were passing out the propaganda that us hunters needn't even try to kill the coyotes, it would only make things worse in many different ways. And Gary Ault was working hard to help the coyotes decimate the herd. They succeeded and PA deer hunting plummeted and many hunters quit, and a multitude of juniors never started. In the seventies when I was a boy deer pheasants, rabbits, quail and woodcock abounded to an abundance. Now the woods are almost empty, except for an abundance of eagles, hawks, bobcats, bears, fox, coons, and yotes, which keep the few remaining gamebirds and rabbits hanging in balance. The message "don't kill predators, it's a waste of time" fits the states message to a T, but is leaving the sportsmen in PA with empty woods. Go back and read Natives post again about how this all fits together and getting rid of sportsmen is on the liberal agenda.
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Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
So what are some solutions instead of rants like my previous? Sportsmen have, are, and need to continue to stick together, doing what has been proven to work. Deer and turkeys are stable in my neck of the woods, even with the aforementioned predators, largely due to most of the sportsmen I know are in harmony with getting all the predators we can, and not shooting any does and hens even though they are legal in the fall.
Sportsmen sticking together, in spite of publicly funded biologists with a hidden agenda that dictate wild game policies that aren't sustainable.
P.S. Small game hunting however, is a distant and precious memory, not coming back anytime soon.
Sportsmen sticking together, in spite of publicly funded biologists with a hidden agenda that dictate wild game policies that aren't sustainable.
P.S. Small game hunting however, is a distant and precious memory, not coming back anytime soon.
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Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Sorry guys, the thread was supposed to be finished before, and I couldn't resist. I'm not sure what comment got me going, but I appreciate each and every post on here, and the civility.
If you are old enough to have trapped back in the 70’s and early 80’s - you will understand better than most. We had quail and woodcock and turkeys and rabbits. Deer herds were blowing up. A hard working trapper or coon huntr might average catching one coon per day. Coyotes and bobcats were few and far between. Our state averaged five poults per hen turkey. The fur market crashed in the late 1980’s - and so did the small game populations in the eastern half of the US. G&F agencies put the blame on deteriorating habitat condidtions. I wont go so far as to say that didnt have something to do with it - but it was primarily due to the overwhelming increase of all types of predators. Quail used to prosper in mediocre habitat. Now they can barely survive in perfect habitat. I used to hunt turkeys in a designated wilderness area - where no habitat manipulation was allowed - yet now the turkeys are gone. Our own g&f has been unable to successfully bring back quail on their own lands designated for quail management - because they refuse to recognize predators as a threat. In my area - deer and squirrels are the only animals that exist in significant numbers - other than predators and hogs.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure this thread will out live me. Round and round it goes where it stops no one knows. Not a problem.
I have a slightly different story. I grew up hunting and fishing a 10,000 acre property lying between the Ms. River and the levee in north east La., some of the most fertile soil in North America. In the late 60's and early 70's I did some trapping for spending money and because I loved chasing critters. Mostly coons, possums, and an occasional fox. I saw a professional trapper catch a coyote and was blown away. Too cool.
Back then on that property the deer herd was amazing though very poorly managed. It was not unusual to see 50,60 or more deer in an evening sit; almost all does and if lucky maybe a buck. There were a few quail but huntable numbers with dogs. There was a hunt able population of rabbits. However there were no turkeys. Turkeys were introduced in 1972 and after 3 years the population had exploded. I was the first one to kill a turkey on the club. I too have had the experience of coyotes responding to a turkey call.
Today there are no quail and not many rabbits. I believe annual flooding eliminated both of them. Turkey numbers fluctuate in direct proportion to spring flooding....avoid floods during nesting a couple years and populations increase significantly. With floods there is no nesting success.Nonetheless there is a healthy population of birds to hunt. The place is a coon heaven but the property is so fertile it seems to all work out. Today there is no organized trapping or predator control of any kind. Hasn't been in over 40 years.
Flooding has become more frequent, lasts longer and tends to be higher. This is attributed to the Corp of Engineers. work all upstream not only on the Mississipi River but all the rivers that flow into it. Beyond that all farmers upstream have ditched and worked property so water gets to the rivers faster. All this adds up to bigger, longer,higher floods profoundly impacting anything that can't escape high water. The deer herd is in the best shape ever resulting from improved mgt. and their ability to get across the levee. Interestingly they always return as soon as the water recedes. No one hunts or traps the predators excepting the occasional spot lighting for coons excepting hogs which are hunted night and day.
All this to say that my impression is that flooding on this property has been the deleterious element to small game yet turkeys, deer and anything that can escape flooding flourishes.
Back then on that property the deer herd was amazing though very poorly managed. It was not unusual to see 50,60 or more deer in an evening sit; almost all does and if lucky maybe a buck. There were a few quail but huntable numbers with dogs. There was a hunt able population of rabbits. However there were no turkeys. Turkeys were introduced in 1972 and after 3 years the population had exploded. I was the first one to kill a turkey on the club. I too have had the experience of coyotes responding to a turkey call.
Today there are no quail and not many rabbits. I believe annual flooding eliminated both of them. Turkey numbers fluctuate in direct proportion to spring flooding....avoid floods during nesting a couple years and populations increase significantly. With floods there is no nesting success.Nonetheless there is a healthy population of birds to hunt. The place is a coon heaven but the property is so fertile it seems to all work out. Today there is no organized trapping or predator control of any kind. Hasn't been in over 40 years.
Flooding has become more frequent, lasts longer and tends to be higher. This is attributed to the Corp of Engineers. work all upstream not only on the Mississipi River but all the rivers that flow into it. Beyond that all farmers upstream have ditched and worked property so water gets to the rivers faster. All this adds up to bigger, longer,higher floods profoundly impacting anything that can't escape high water. The deer herd is in the best shape ever resulting from improved mgt. and their ability to get across the levee. Interestingly they always return as soon as the water recedes. No one hunts or traps the predators excepting the occasional spot lighting for coons excepting hogs which are hunted night and day.
All this to say that my impression is that flooding on this property has been the deleterious element to small game yet turkeys, deer and anything that can escape flooding flourishes.
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I went to college at La Tech in the mid-70’s. My future in-laws owned land around Calhoun - a few miles west of Monroe. We ran bird dogs for quail and beagles for rabbits. Turkeys were taking off and there was a pretty good deer population. We didnt even call it a rabbit hunt unless we killed 20. Limits of quail were unusual - but doable. It did seem like a lot more does than bucks - but plenty of deer - but a 2 1/2 yr old 8 pt was a big one. Several of us had coon hounds. $25 dollar coons were a welcome sight for a college student. We hunted them hard - sometimes three or four nights a week. Sometimes we didnt kill one in a week. Two or three a week was a good week. My father in law still owns land there and they still deer hunt on the same land. Deer are not common. A day long hunt doesnt always result in a deer sighting. Coyote sightings are almost as common as deer sightings. I could probably run over two or three coons every night when leaving the camp house. There are no quail, rabbits, or turkeys. My son in law hunts near Coushatta - plenty of deer - and some decent ones. Plenty of coons. No quail, turkeys, or rabbits. Pretty much the same for me in SW AR. No ground nesting game left. Our non-predatory game is deer, squirrels, and some ducks. No rabbits, turkey, or quail. Just north of my location, bears are becoming much more numerous. Plenty of hogs. Our deer hunting is decent - but not as good a it was eight or ten years ago. The only hunting that is better in my area now than it was ten years ago is coon, hog, bear, and alligator.
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Oh, there are a lot more directions this thread could go.
We could visit the New Age Religion story of how man didn't exist until he was created by the coyote. I know that one by heart and would be happy to tell it..... Oh, and that was after the coyote defeated the Wallowa Mountains Monster and freed all of the other animals of the forest (including the deer) from the belly of the monster.
Don't worry...I'm not in the mood tonight to tell it.....
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