The New Coyote and Other Predators..... Can You Win?

[SwampCat]

I believe this thread has generated such interest because the predator situation is so varied all across the continent. It is not like someone asked is it better to plant wheat or rye. There are SO MANY things to consider when speaking of predators that it is difficult to take all into account. So many in fact, that it is easy to generalize and not see the whole picture. It is an incorrect statement to say you cant do anything about predators or they are not negatively impacting your game. It is also an incorrect statement to say you need to control your predators or predators are negatively impacting your game. To say one or the other shows either your narrow mindedness or ignorance of the situation. But, if you say predators are not impacting the game populations in MY AREA - that could well be a true and accurate statement based upon YOUR knowledge of YOUR area.

I have worked in the wildlife management business for forty years now, and the impact predators will have on an area is probably as varied as anything we deal with. I have two properties eight miles apart in the same river bottoms - and the impact predators have on those two areas is night and day difference. And to be honest, the area they negatively impact less has a lot more predators than the other area.

I think that is why predators generate so much interest - because their impact is so varied across the country. I cuss them in May and June - on only one of my properties - and welcome them the other ten months of the year - at least for now.

 

[Baker]

I believe this thread has generated such interest because the predator situation is so varied all across the continent. It is not like someone asked is it better to plant wheat or rye. There are SO MANY things to consider when speaking of predators that it is difficult to take all into account. So many in fact, that it is easy to generalize and not see the whole picture. It is an incorrect statement to say you cant do anything about predators or they are not negatively impacting your game. It is also an incorrect statement to say you need to control your predators or predators are negatively impacting your game. To say one or the other shows either your narrow mindedness or ignorance of the situation. But, if you say predators are not impacting the game populations in MY AREA - that could well be a true and accurate statement based upon YOUR knowledge of YOUR area.

I have worked in the wildlife management business for forty years now, and the impact predators will have on an area is probably as varied as anything we deal with. I have two properties eight miles apart in the same river bottoms - and the impact predators have on those two areas is night and day difference. And to be honest, the area they negatively impact less has a lot more predators than the other area.

I think that is why predators generate so much interest - because their impact is so varied across the country. I cuss them in May and June - on only one of my properties - and welcome them the other ten months of the year - at least for now.

It could also be added that in some circumstances predators add value. For example where man has allowed deer populations, or any prey specie, to over populate. Balance is a tricky equilibrium that is rarely in stasis.

 

[SwampCat]

It could also be added that in some circumstances predators add value. For example where man has allowed deer populations, or any prey specie, to over populate. Balance is a tricky equilibrium that is rarely in stasis.

Yes - without a doubt. The city of Atlanta feels the coyotes help control their urban deer. I feel - in my area - the coyotes also take a lot of young pigs. I am not sure that is not a major food source. Lot of tender coyote fodder in the attached pic. I have caught young pigs before - surely a coyote can.

 

[Mennoniteman]

View attachment 11178

Yes - without a doubt. The city of Atlanta feels the coyotes help control their urban deer. I feel - in my area - the coyotes also take a lot of young pigs. I am not sure that is not a major food source. Lot of tender coyote fodder in the attached pic. I have caught young pigs before - surely a coyote can.

But if this is indeed correct, why is the pig population at such high numbers in lots of different areas where coyotes are also found?

 

[SwampCat]

But if this is indeed correct, why is the pig population at such high numbers in lots of different areas where coyotes are also found?

I guess it could be said just think how many pigs there would be if coyotes werent eating some of them. I dont know if the yotes are killing them or feeding on dead carcasses. We have no rabbits, turkeys, quail or any other small animal for them to feed on. That leaves coons, possums, deer or hogs to eat.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I guess it could be said just think how many pigs there would be if coyotes werent eating some of them. I dont know if the yotes are killing them or feeding on dead carcasses. We have no rabbits, turkeys, quail or any other small animal for them to feed on. That leaves coons, possums, deer or hogs to eat.

Quote "We have no rabbits, turkeys, quail or any other small animal for them to feed on" Why not? I'm going to guess that predators ate all of these already, and are left with mice, deer and wild pigs. Which of these tastes better and is easier to get? Think a piglet would be easy to take away from a mad tusker? I don't agree that having yotes around is a good thing because they'll supposedly keep the undesirables under control. Coyotes are opportunists that are eating mostly the same easy to get tasty game year-round that us sportsmen are also after.

 

[SwampCat]

Quote "We have no rabbits, turkeys, quail or any other small animal for them to feed on" Why not? I'm going to guess that predators ate all of these already, and are left with mice, deer and wild pigs. Which of these tastes better and is easier to get? Think a piglet would be easy to take away from a mad tusker? I don't agree that having yotes around is a good thing because they'll supposedly keep the undesirables under control. Coyotes are opportunists that are eating mostly the same easy to get tasty game year-round that us sportsmen are also after.

I dont doubt that the coyotes help rid the area of small game. But, so do coons and possums and crows and skunks and snakes and hawks and all sorts of predators. We havent had small game in years around my place. And if coyotes were gone, I still doubt we would have small game. Maybe a study could prove coyotes were only scavenging dead pigs - and then I would be right back on the band wagon of seeing no worth for a coyote. Pretty sure the coyotes could catch the piglets and get away with it - I have on a number of occassions.

 

[dogghr]

Coyote DNA study might be of interest....
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...CWyRxv0FTL1FBa86ZL2g3YK4-C1Rhz9S_6BEv7e8w8DFA

 

[pinetag]

Coyote DNA study might be of interest....
https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com...CWyRxv0FTL1FBa86ZL2g3YK4-C1Rhz9S_6BEv7e8w8DFA

I have limited experience with coyotes but I think it's a very interesting topic. Like some others, I would probably classify myself as an opportunistic hunter of them. I'm not looking to wipe them out but I also don't want them to negatively impact my hunting either.

I've read something like this before about coyotes being a mix of coyote, wolf, and dog. I would think based on the points in the article, this definitely gives the eastern coyote advantages over other predators in our area. I'm going to keep an eye on on my camera surveys over the coming years as i have noticed a dramatic increase in rabbit pics (i'll take credit for my habitat work... LOL) and in turn, an uptick in coyote pics as well. I'll be curious to see what the sightings/pics do this year after bringing some of the overhead canopy to the ground and providing more cover for the little, furry critters.

I do have lots of raccoons so it will be interesting to see what happens with them as well.

 

[Drycreek]

I'm a coyote hunter and trapper at times. I always try to kill them when I see them because I see no downside to killing what few I see while deer hunting. Most of my actual coyote calling is on property that doesn't benefit "my" deer whatsoever. Between them and the hogs, our fawn crops are not as good as they were a few years ago. I base that on camera surveys as I have lots of cameras on feeders, food plots, mineral sites, and sometimes just on trails in the woods. I see LOTS of coyotes and even more hogs, but not many fawns. I know coyotes prey on fawns, but not to what extent. They prey on pigs also because I've seen pig hair in coyote scat, but I don't know if the pig was dead or alive when eaten, and I've left my fair share of dead pigs in the woods for them to eat. I'm about to trap here at home if I can get some traps in after it rains tomorrow, because I'm getting about as many coyotes on my cameras as I am deer. The only way I can see that coyote trapping benefits deer is to trap between now and the end of May or middle of June and try to thin out a few before fawns are on the ground.

 

[Bowhunter]

Coyotes don’t kill all the fawns around here like most people believe. Black bears are the ones that can really put a hurting on fawn numbers but no one actually talks about that. Some where I read that black bears are the only animal capable of smelling a fawn in their early days when they are supposed to have no scent.

We have high numbers of both bears and song dogs here and I do my best to keep them both in check. I run a 36 set k9 trap line in the winter and hunt the coyotes pretty hard when my time allows. Even with as much as I try hard to keep their numbers down I still usually only manage around 12-20 K9’s per year.

 

[dogghr]

And another you may peruse....
http://wvdnr.gov/hunting/CoyoteRese...Z5KKGGMvFPrRaLuCltBs6WgHWjGsc32QnC2UY_D-tJOAQ

 

[Mitch123]

Coyotes don’t kill all the fawns around here like most people believe. Black bears are the ones that can really put a hurting on fawn numbers but no one actually talks about that. Some where I read that black bears are the only animal capable of smelling a fawn in their early days when they are supposed to have no scent.

We have high numbers of both bears and song dogs here and I do my best to keep them both in check. I run a 36 set k9 trap line in the winter and hunt the coyotes pretty hard when my time allows. Even with as much as I try hard to keep their numbers down I still usually only manage around 12-20 K9’s per year.

Bears simply put are terrible. As deer hunters/managers, along with habitat enthusiasts there is nothing a bear won’t mess up. They are a huge problem where we hunt in WV. But like you said, it doesn’t get the attention it should because some counties in the state don’t have a problem with them. Along with the fact that the hounds men are in the legislatives pocket, unfortunately I don’t see anything ever getting done about them.

 

[Bowhunter]

Bears simply put are terrible. As deer hunters/managers, along with habitat enthusiasts there is nothing a bear won’t mess up. They are a huge problem where we hunt in WV. But like you said, it doesn’t get the attention it should because some counties in the state don’t have a problem with them. Along with the fact that the hounds men are in the legislatives pocket, unfortunately I don’t see anything ever getting done about them.

I think a lot of it is because people just don't see bears as predators like they are. People see them as majestic animals that they enjoy watching and having around and don't realize the devastation that they can make.

 

[Gator]

I'll admit I got tired of reading and skipped to the end. anyway, is it possible that areas of the country that have a shorter more intense rut whereas most of the fawns are all born around the same time have a higher survival rate than those areas where the rut is spread out so the fawns are born more spread out? My thinking is, if all fawns are born within a 2 week span there's a shorter duration as a whole they are vulnerable to predation

 

[pinetag]

I'll admit I got tired of reading and skipped to the end. anyway, is it possible that areas of the country that have a shorter more intense rut whereas most of the fawns are all born around the same time have a higher survival rate than those areas where the rut is spread out so the fawns are born more spread out? My thinking is, if all fawns are born within a 2 week span there's a shorter duration as a whole they are vulnerable to predation

Interesting thought Gator as our rut is definitely an extended one!

 

[dogghr]

I'll admit I got tired of reading and skipped to the end. anyway, is it possible that areas of the country that have a shorter more intense rut whereas most of the fawns are all born around the same time have a higher survival rate than those areas where the rut is spread out so the fawns are born more spread out? My thinking is, if all fawns are born within a 2 week span there's a shorter duration as a whole they are vulnerable to predation

That is the theory in that the predator can be supposedly overwhelmed by prey numbers thus lower attrition rate. And why trapping or shooting predator in May is more productive to reduce predator numbers. Personally I've never trapped past Feb, and by May I've got my plots overseeded, trees planted, stands maintained, turkey season ends, and I'm off to do other summer activities rather than the farm until rotation plantings in Aug.. I know we can hunt year round coyote but I think trap season ends Feb.
And I"m not sure which preys more, the bear or yote but I do know have pics of both within yards of deer with the deer paying less attention to them than my neighborhood dogs, which also certainly take their share of deer. I think its fair to say fawn attrition rate for most areas is around 50% mortality of all factors.

 

[Zeek]

I think a lot of it is because people just don't see bears as predators like they are. People see them as majestic animals that they enjoy watching and having around and don't realize the devastation that they can make.

Bears only eat honey, and picnic baskets.

 

[SwampCat]

I think it is a variety of things. I dont believe at my place that coyotes depend on deer year round. They eat the heck out of fawns in june and july, but coyote numbers do not increase based upon deer numbers - on my gound. So, as my deer herd grows, the percent of fawns that are taken by coyotes actually lessons, because the coyote numbers dont grow along with the deer numbers. When my camera surveys showed four adult does, I had four or five coyotes around the place. They got all the fawns. As my doe numbers have increased to 25, I still have the same number of coyotes - and a lot of the fawns - by sheer numers alone - make it past the coyotes. As most southern states have recognized, if you cant effectively control the coyotes, you have to reduce antlerless harvest. That is what we did - we quit killing does. Didnt kill one for five years and this year, the grand daughter killed one yearling doe. We used to kill three or four a year and we got the neighbors to cut back. After six years of no doe killing and reducing spring coyote numbers, we have seen fawn receiitment numbers as high as .62 per doe. Previously, we had seen fawn numbers as low as .03 per doe - yes .03 - as near to zero as you can get and still have a fawn.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I think it is a variety of things. I dont believe at my place that coyotes depend on deer year round. They eat the heck out of fawns in june and july, but coyote numbers do not increase based upon deer numbers - on my gound. So, as my deer herd grows, the percent of fawns that are taken by coyotes actually lessons, because the coyote numbers dont grow along with the deer numbers. When my camera surveys showed four adult does, I had four or five coyotes around the place. They got all the fawns. As my doe numbers have increased to 25, I still have the same number of coyotes - and a lot of the fawns - by sheer numers alone - make it past the coyotes. As most southern states have recognized, if you cant effectively control the coyotes, you have to reduce antlerless harvest. That is what we did - we quit killing does. Didnt kill one for five years and this year, the grand daughter killed one yearling doe. We used to kill three or four a year and we got the neighbors to cut back. After six years of no doe killing and reducing spring coyote numbers, we have seen fawn receiitment numbers as high as .62 per doe. Previously, we had seen fawn numbers as low as .03 per doe - yes .03 - as near to zero as you can get and still have a fawn.

Wildlife in balance is a beautiful picture indeed. While I've been critical of coyote numbers in the past, I'm not looking for a zero population, only for balance, which we didn't have in PA when they were first reintroduced. I think that you are correct in your thinking that it takes higher deer numbers than the levels that the state management agencies have/are willing to set in many states to achieve a truly balanced ecological system. And as the above referenced article as per Dogghr says, as deer numbers grow in a coyote area, the herd also grows healthier, with the predators taking the smaller, weaker fawns. Because of various factors that are usually upsetting this balance on the private and public lands surrounding us, the greater burden for maintaining a balanced ecosystem falls upon us private land managers.