New observation, don’t know what to make of it

[Native Hunter]

Do you have any bell curve data that shows what the average score of a mature whitetail deer is in your area?

Here is data from the Faith Ranch in Texas. Your scores of 135 to 145 are actually on the right side of the curve peak - which means that if your deer came from that place they would be a little above average:

http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/287068/d8f908dabf/1246012115/3ededa88b5/

So, unless your area is better than the Faith Ranch - you took deer above average.

I can tell you the vast majority of mature bucks in my area will be from 130 to 140. I sometimes get deer in the 150s and 160s but they are the exception - and that is exactly what the bell curve I posted above shows.

So, where do the deer you killed hit on the bell curve for your area?? My guess is that they are average or above average...but I'm asking you, because I don't know........

 

[Pacahunter]

I am near bull. I also have smaller properties in 2 separate directions from bull. All my properties have less deer than bull. One property has white cedar and balsam regeneration, which seems to be impossible with even average density. If I had to guess I'm still within 15-20 miles from bull., At the furthest.
My antler obervations are the same as bulls. Older bucks had poor antler development, but younger bucks looked very promising.
I harvested a 4.5 year old buck that was in the upper 140s. Quite honestly that buck was my only clear shooter I had on camera. My buck made a pretty good jump from last year. I thought very hard about not shooting him, but am happy I took him.
For some reason I had at least 3 (shooter)bucks that 100% survived last year, into January. All 3 disappeared this year. Neighbor might have had one picture of one, but not sure. Now that I think of it even lost some 100-120" bucks.
Can excessive rainfall impact antler growth of mature bucks? Just the older bucks 4 plus? 2 and three year olds look great. Maybe my age estimating is off?
We also harvested toad does, but we always do. I don't weigh my deer, just not hard core driven for that data.
Interesting topic bull, thanks for bringing it up. From talking with other hunters, your observations appear to be regional for our party of the state, at least.

 

[Bigeight]

3 deer isn't much of a sample size like others have stated. Sounds like you monitored their antlers from one year to the next on the individuals you harvested, but not their weights, but trying to compare years with those 2 data points. Doesn't make sense to read into it, IMO.


When did you kill the deer ? (sorry if I missed it) like others stated, a deer even killed a week or 2 earlier or later in the fall/winter can have a fluctuation of 10-15#, or 40 from October to late November.
I've been watching a 4.5 yr old here in MI that looks like a 2.5 yr old right now. He has been absolutely non stop chasing does since about Oct 20th and still going like a mad man. About 7 miles away on another small piece we have a 4.5 yr old that looks like fat Albert and I've never seen, or gotten pictures of him concerning himself with the ladies except from about the 3rd-10th where he slowly walked behind a doe. Small Camera survey, and monitoring, but these 2 are insanely different in how they approach life and reflects their body weight tremendously. I could try and pick apart our management practices to reflect this, but it's just nature and nothing I think a spreadsheet should be laminated over.

FWIW, The antler size on average seems to be way up this year from our harvest and camera surveys. Body weight stayed about the same for our harvests on similar dates from years past in MI. The Antler size on the property I hunted in OH the last few yrs seemed to be down considerably compared to previous yrs. I didn't get a chance to check any body weights though and compare

Good luck Bull, I like how your mind keeps looking for more ways to improve, but I think a 2 buck survey over 1 fall is kinda reaching for numbers to tell any story.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I’ve weighed almost every deer for 12 years (I skipped some fawns and small does that were shot)

My data-dressed (top of my head)

1.5 year old - 115-125lb
2.5 year old 130-150lb
3 yr 140-180lb

Earlier season. Heavier the deer. This is where it gets weird and I don’t have as much data

4-150-175lb
5 - 170-180
6 - 175lb
7- 155lb

In 12 years these are the first deer we’ve shot at 200lb. First doe ever at 160lb. Biggest before was 140lb

I am pretty sure the one is 6 years old since I had pictures back till ‘15. He was shot after rut. The other one looks at least 5 and was shot youth weekend - just a pig of a deer. My son and I could hardly get him in the cart.

We take normally shoot 10-20 deer/year so I have some decent data. The comments about 10-15lb float are spot on

 

[George]

View attachment 10532 Bull there is definately something wrong. Your bucks should have put on tremendous growth with back to back mild winters in Wisconsin. I had no problem shooting a 160 plus buck on my place this year. All the bucks were carrying better head gear and more weight. Time to get a better deer plan, stop worring about all your food plots feeding your deer and worry more about natural browse as that makes up a lot of a deers diet. Shot this big boy on 1st sit. 161 3/8. Field dressed at 217. Live weight about 275. Still chasing the other big boy that is bigger than this one.

Damn Tom!!!

G

 

[Bullwinkle]

Well this is fun. Got the tooth age results this morning - confirmed my guess- 5.5 years old

Great one to take off Farm

 

[Pacahunter]

Well this is fun. Got the tooth age results this morning - confirmed my guess- 5.5 years old

Great one to take off Farm

View attachment 10541

I don't see a whole lot to complain about with that buck. Congrats, especially a kid

 

[swat1018]

Bull isn't it true you've never killed a 150 and you're in Deer Nirvana, supposedly? Maybe it isn't the farm? Sometimes you have to sit back and look at everything. Deer figure people out in a hurry, quicker if you're sloppy. How many people total hunt this place? Sounds like you, kids, friends, etc. I get it, I like to share my success too, but maybe it's not the farm or habitat.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Bull isn't it true you've never killed a 150 and you're in Deer Nirvana, supposedly? Maybe it isn't the farm? Sometimes you have to sit back and look at everything. Deer figure people out in a hurry, quicker if you're sloppy. How many people total hunt this place? Sounds like you, kids, friends, etc. I get it, I like to share my success too, but maybe it's not the farm or habitat.

I’ve never killed a 150” on my own. Guided hunts I have. My work has produced for others. I’ve done all the stand work and stand selection for everyone. Things like this happen. I sit my gun stand for 8 years, great hunts but no big bucks. Give it up one year to test a new part of farm and a stud gets shot on my gun stand. I pass a large number of deer each year but the 150” has eluded me. This year we didn’t have any over 150” to target. Work limits my days and that’s my biggest problem. This year I didn’t hunt rut because of work. That hurts me

It will happen. My farm is heading to a whole other level with the habitat work I have done. Retirement is within sight. I need about 5 more years

 

[Mennoniteman]

Start weighing your does. If you're taking that many off your property, you should be able to come up with some comparable data in a couple seasons. I'd seriously check your soil for missing nutrients and then plug the gaps in your forage calendar. If your plots are getting completely wiped out, there may be more getting carried away than is being put back on.

More carried away than is put back on? Since food plots aren't harvested and deer are constantly fertilizing it, it should take minimal fert to make up the difference of leaching and a deers body equivalent.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Is anyone aging does and logging weight?

I’ve not done this. Doe fawns and 1.5 year old does are easy to ID. After that it’s just a doe to me. Probably a mistake looking back now

 

[MarkDarvin]

More carried away than is put back on? Since food plots aren't harvested and deer are constantly fertilizing it, it should take minimal fert to make up the difference of leaching and a deers body equivalent.

Are they dropping all they've taken from the plot back onto the plot? More, less, equal, who knows? If plots are getting nailed, I'd consider that getting harvested. Cattle grazers have the same problem in hilly pastures. Cattle will go up a hillside to eat, but go back to the flat ground to lay down. When they stand back up they first crap on flat ground. Nutrients can get relocated.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I spend $1800+/ year on fertilizer. My plots are awesome. That is not my problem.

It’s illegal to use minerals or feed protein. My problem is not quality feed IMO. Heck I hardly have browse like you’d want but have no problem growing very big deer. This year, huge deer, lack of big antlers???

 

[Baker]

I spend $1800+/ year on fertilizer. My plots are awesome. That is not my problem.

It’s illegal to use minerals or feed protein. My problem is not quality feed IMO. Heck I hardly have browse like you’d want but have no problem growing very big deer. This year, huge deer, lack of big antlers???

I keep saying Bull, bucks get fat in the fall,but grow antlers in the spring. Doesn't matter what there weight is in any particular fall. For antlers it is what the consistent nutrient availability has been for the past generation of springs.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Baker - you got me thinking

To be honest I hesitate because it blows up the Sturgis plan which has paid big dividend for me

I can easily get 100 dpsm on my property planting year round food. Your idea will create a huge doe problem for me. Jeff’s plan fixed that till this no acorn year. Your idea - makes a lot of sense if you just think about bucks- in my situation it drives up my population big time.

My land will become a just shoot does property. At least now I get them off the property for a little bit

 

[Baker]

100 dpsq can be supported IF you have sufficient year round nutrition available. The challenge you have as I see it is small fragmented land ownership . You are not managing deer. You can only manage habitat with minimal influence over a herd { without full cooperation of all neighbors over a thousand acres or so }. From the very little bit I have seen of the habitat on your property you are a long ways from effectively supporting 100dpsm.

As a reference the absolute best property I am familiar with runs about a deer to 5 acres. His trophy production is unmatched anywhere. This in the panhandle of Tx. with irrigated alfalfa and extensive supplemental feeding.

 

[Chainsaw]

I keep saying Bull, bucks get fat in the fall, but grow antlers in the spring. Doesn't matter what there weight is in any particular fall. For antlers it is what the consistent nutrient availability has been for the past generation of springs.

I like how you put that Baker and I have come to realize over the last four or five years that combined with the fact that not every buck throughout the country has it in him to be a super star, it is just that simple.

"Bucks get fat in the fall but grow antlers in the spring."

There are very few absolute rules in this deer game but I believe you summed up an important one perfectly with those few words. We have little problem growing 200 lb. deer here as the deer have all the food here they could possibly eat June thru October but we don't yet do so well here for them January thru May or at least haven't long enough and the antler sizes reflect it.

 

[Bullwinkle]

In WI you can’t feed or place minerals

My neighbors don’t do food plots for most part. Some bait/feed. I don’t but plant 18 acres.

I can easily increase population. Plant summer food. I’ve chosen to plant just fall attraction so I don’t get overrun with deer. Worked great till this year with 0 acorns Put it this way on Tue of gun season, in an afternoon hunt one guest saw 61 deer. That is WAY TOO many

I have to reduce does without just shooting them. Think about shooting that many does- if you can get 2-3 a sit you are doing very well. It’s impossible with my work situation.

 

[Baker]

I don't have a solution for you. 18 acres of food will feed about 20-30 deer IF you can get it started. I've seen pics of your browse line.Obviously way too many deer which creates nutritional and social pressures that will be difficult to reverse in your situation all effecting antler growth. Nature will consistently thwart the Sturgis plan. Deer management is never static or in a vacuum nor can it be accomplished on small acreage without full cooperation of a large enough geography to fully impact a reasonable number of deer.

All I'm proposing is that there isn't much of a correlation between the weights you are seeing this year and the antler growth you are seeing this year.

Refresh my memory...how many contiguous acres do you have?

 

[cutman]

“Deer get fat in the fall” certainly does not apply to the deer here in SC. The deer here get fat in the summer and peak (body weight) in September, then they lose weight throughout the fall due to the rut.