Urban flight to rural land

[Triple C]

Not to contradict but to point out that you are comparing well managed pine stands to oak stands that have not been managed. An oak stand that has canopied over is long overdue for a thinning/ harvesting. A forester with a degree will tell you that well managed oak stand will have similar or better deer browse than well managed pines.
Of course, there's a lot of difference between PA and GA. I have attached a video of how a well managed oak stand in PA looks.

I get it. I drove from KC to Columbia, MO 3 weeks ago on biz. All hardwoods with an occasional pine tree here and there. Traveled a good bit up in PA as well through miles and miles of hardwoods. Guess I should have qualified my comment with "down south". And yes, I agree, a well managed hardwood stand that is thinned with sunlight hitting the floor will produce great habitat. A mature, well managed pine stand is a deer magnet. On the other hand, a 12 to 14 yr old pine stand that has not undergone it's first thinning and has canopied over is a deer desert.

 

[THE LLC]

The VAST majority of what you saw along I-70 would not qualify as “well-managed” hardwood stands. Most are also full of locust trees.

 

[OkieKubota]

I will agree and add that virtually all do so without animosity or condescension. That is indeed refreshing and well above normal for lots of forums. This is a great bunch of folks and I’ve learned a bunch by being here !

We have a great forum with a great knowledge base. We separate the wheat from the chaff real well here...

 

[Deadeye]

Deadeye...Well managed pine stands thinned to a basal area of 50 or less provide great habitat for deer and actually produce more food over the course of a year than oak stands that have canopied over. I always love hunting oak flats because I could see so far. Still love them when the acorns are dropping. I'm about 60% pine and 40% mature hardwoods. But for year round forage, particularly forbs, aggressively thinned stands of pine along with prescribed fire every 2 to 3 years will support many more deer than a mature oak stand over the course of a year.

I recall in 2012 when I bought the adjoining 73 acre tract to my original 214 acre tract. It was 90% 22 yr old pine at the time and had it not joined me I would have passed on it as it was mostly all in planted pine. Didn't take me long to find out that the deer density on the 73 acres exceeded that of my 214 which is comprised of 50% hardwoods and 50% planted pine. Most sits, it's a parade of deer meandering thru the pines browsing on forbs and bedding in cover.

Thank You for that Info, I had no idea.

Being raised in North West Pa the only real Pines I knew were in small clumps here and there. The Deer did like to bed there but they Fed in the Oaks. Hemlock was also a big deal there. Large Growth of Hemlock the Temps were always cooler with almost no understory which made hunting them great when Deer were moving, you could see far.

Just never really considered Pine as a Major Food Source

 

[Deadeye]

Not to contradict but to point out that you are comparing well managed pine stands to oak stands that have not been managed. An oak stand that has canopied over is long overdue for a thinning/ harvesting. A forester with a degree will tell you that well managed oak stand will have similar or better deer browse than well managed pines.
Of course, there's a lot of difference between PA and GA. I have attached a video of how a well managed oak stand in PA looks.

Good Points as well.
I was in the Timber Industry for about 6 Years in Pa. From the Harvest to the Sawing, and Grew Up around it with my dad.

My Dad worked in the woods from the time he left school on 10th Grade. Drew the Logs out with Horses in the Beginning, got old 8mm films of him doing that. Dad would NEVER go below 20" on the Stump Breast High. He always said if you did that in 20 Years you could come back and Timber it again. One of the things that kill our Business was the Guys that started going down further and further in size.

It went from 20" to 18" to 16" to the Last Company I worked for wanted down to 12" in order to get the Bid. Others were all bidding at 12" and you couldn't compete if you didn't. Most Land Owners just looked at the end Check, not that they were loosing their Forest for their Lifetime.

One company started doing what they sold as "timber stand improvement" They claimed the only took out the trees that needed cutting and a BUNCH of Land Owners went with them because of that. What they ACTULLY did was Rape the Land of the Best Stock and then only took the Veneer Butt and One Cut Up Logs leaving litterly Thousands of Dollars of Timber left to rot on the ground. It was nasty to see as a Woodsman and a Timber Man.

But a well planned out Thinning provides a BUNCH of Food for all wildlife. Brush and Briars so thick you can't walk through them-- but the Deer can and do.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Thank You for that Info, I had no idea.

Being raised in North West Pa the only real Pines I knew were in small clumps here and there. The Deer did like to bed there but they Fed in the Oaks. Hemlock was also a big deal there. Large Growth of Hemlock the Temps were always cooler with almost no understory which made hunting them great when Deer were moving, you could see far.

Just never really considered Pine as a Major Food Source

The PA hemlock trees are mostly gone due to the Hemlock Woolly Adelgid.

 

[Deadeye]

The PA hemlock trees are mostly gone due to the Hemlock Woolly Adelgid.

Didn't know that. I'll have to ask my Brother if the ones on his Property were effected.

 

[Native Hunter]

All I know is that if I see any of those guys in dresses near me that Geo posted, I'm moving somewhere else..............

 

[Mennoniteman]

All I know is that if I see any of those guys in dresses near me that Geo posted, I'm moving somewhere else..............

We can still go fishing, wear our old blue jeans;
But when it comes to showtime, we'll be country queens . . .

 

[George]

All I know is that if I see any of those guys in dresses near me that Geo posted, I'm moving somewhere else..............

They can't run you off, however it is safe to say, dresses for men won't catch on any time soon in Kentucky.

I don't see many buying $1400 fake grass stained overalls either.

G

 

[Drycreek]

They can't run you off, however it is safe to say, dresses for men won't catch on any time soon in Kentucky.

I don't see many buying $1400 fake grass stained overalls either.

G

At least I don’t have to fake stain anything. I’m like the little boy on the Peanuts cartoon, there’s a dust cloud that follows me everywhere......

 

[Cap'n]

That was an informative and entertaining thread. Hats off to all who contributed.
I did get a little lost there at the end though......

 

[410001661]

The same is happening in Toronto and surrounding areas. Where I live people are leaving Toronto in droves to buy a house with a front and back yard or a bit of land and are paying large. Torontonians (aka Citiots) are also reeking havoc in cottage country driving prices well above asking so that they can get out of Dodge due to COVID. Many of them have no clue about a cottage or a camp and have no clue what is involved - many have not spend a winter outside of a big city and are in for a big shock.

I say give it a couple of years (when things get back to normal) and I believe there will be lots toys (boats/trailers/snow machines/cottages/camps) on the market.

 

[MarkDarvin]

The same is happening in Toronto and surrounding areas. Where I live people are leaving Toronto in droves to buy a house with a front and back yard or a bit of land and are paying large. Torontonians (aka Citiots) are also reeking havoc in cottage country driving prices well above asking so that they can get out of Dodge due to COVID. Many of them have no clue about a cottage or a camp and have no clue what is involved - many have not spend a winter outside of a big city and are in for a big shock.

I say give it a couple of years (when things get back to normal) and I believe there will be lots toys (boats/trailers/snow machines/cottages/camps) on the market.

Gonna be darn interesting to see where all this settles out when the pendulum comes swinging back. I can't help but think of all the problems this is going to cause given everyone moved right after we did the census. The big blue states ought to be giving up around 10-12 electoral votes after this year the way it is. They should probably give up an extra 10-30 the way they're driving away those that have the ability to flee. Maybe time for an executive order to re-do the census in 2021?

 

[readonly]

Oddly enough, the stumpage price for loblolly pine hasn't inched up a bit. Basically what it was back in 2006 or even less. I just signed a contract for final harvest on 30 yr old loblolly and 2nd thinning of 20 yr old loblolly. Price per ton is less than what I got when I thinned in 2015/2016. I'll probably replant loblolly when we harvest the 30 yr old pines in hopes that 20 years from now the stumpage prices will see a nice gain.

In my part of Virginia, pine prices are up now. Overall though, there is a choke point at the mills...not enough sawmills so that prevents stumpage prices from benefiting fully from supply shortage. Similar to beef shortage but also choke point in meatpacking.

 

[THE LLC]

I’m thinking of moving to where all these idiots are coming from. Can’t be anybody left.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I’m thinking of moving to where all these idiots are coming from. Can’t be anybody left.

A boarded up main street is a forlorn looking place to live.

In my part of Virginia, pine prices are up now. Overall though, there is a choke point at the mills...not enough sawmills so that prevents stumpage prices from benefiting fully from supply shortage. Similar to beef shortage but also choke point in meatpacking.

Hopefully it comes to PA, I have a pulpwood project in the works for 2022.

Gonna be darn interesting to see where all this settles out when the pendulum comes swinging back. I can't help but think of all the problems this is going to cause given everyone moved right after we did the census. The big blue states ought to be giving up around 10-12 electoral votes after this year the way it is. They should probably give up an extra 10-30 the way they're driving away those that have the ability to flee. Maybe time for an executive order to re-do the census in 2021?

Just watch this one; there will be a liberal push to let in illegals from somewhere to vote democrat and fill these empty buildings in the city.

The same is happening in Toronto and surrounding areas. Where I live people are leaving Toronto in droves to buy a house with a front and back yard or a bit of land and are paying large. Torontonians (aka Citiots) are also reeking havoc in cottage country driving prices well above asking so that they can get out of Dodge due to COVID. Many of them have no clue about a cottage or a camp and have no clue what is involved - many have not spend a winter outside of a big city and are in for a big shock.

I say give it a couple of years (when things get back to normal) and I believe there will be lots toys (boats/trailers/snow machines/cottages/camps) on the market.

Me and a lot of people I know are saving cash for that day you're speaking of, so cheap boats and generators won't last long.

 

[Triple C]

In my part of Virginia, pine prices are up now. Overall though, there is a choke point at the mills...not enough sawmills so that prevents stumpage prices from benefiting fully from supply shortage. Similar to beef shortage but also choke point in meatpacking.

And therein lies the real issue as a result of the Great Recession. Mills closed. Fewer mills means the loggers have to haul longer distances and the mills are limited as to how much raw material they can take in on a given day. I recall in 2015-2016 thinning the logger would have to call the mill to see if he could haul wood almost on a daily basis. When the yard is full they ain't taking any more timber.

That should self-correct as supply / demand will lead to more modern and efficient mills.

 

[Triple C]

I say give it a couple of years (when things get back to normal) and I believe there will be lots toys (boats/trailers/snow machines/cottages/camps) on the market.

Well...here we are almost 2 years later and the rural land market is hotter today than it was 2 years ago. County where my farm is located is 1.5 hrs east of ATL. Very rural. 1 grocery store in county. Mostly timber and cattle. Very little infrastructure. And land prices have gone nuts...https://www.landflip.com/land-for-sale/georgia/oglethorpe-county/an-s
Toys are more expensive than ever...if you can find any. UTVs, tractors, ATVs, implements, etc. Seems as if we have gone thru a complete reset with the value of everything now permanently and significantly higher than pre Covid n Biden.

 

[Triple C]

Stumpage prices are finally improving.


Clear cut of 32 yr old pine is about finished.


2nd thinning of 22 yr old stand is underway. Enjoying the comfort of my 1st cab tractor I picked up last December. Holy cow. Should have bought a cab tractor years ago.