Foodplotting In The Mountains...The Sequel
- Thread starter dogghr
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dogghr
Well-Known Member
Soil thru a microscope.
Here you go Chip. Disclaimer I know only what I read and am not an expert or microbiologist as some might be on here. The internet and youtube are amazing sources if you can weed thru the false and true.
I got my first microscope for Christmas one year at age of six from my self educated dad. He knew the value of learning despite his poor abilities in the public schools.
We all have been exposed to Ray the soil guy by now. The impetus of no till and rotational cropping is quite common with farmers here and across the country. It's foundation is soil health and less abuse of its inherent properties. Same can be applied to everything on our land from food plots, to fruit trees, to the mighty oak. Any of those are dependent in some way on the highest and lowest organisms of plant and animal life.
One teaspoon of soil contains 4 billion microorganisms. From microbes of bacteria and fungi to small invertebrate providing the drive of the carbon/nitrogen cycle of plants and eventual animals. The horn on the deer is somehow related to the microbes of the soil. One cannot exist without the input of the other. It is easy to look at all trees, and admire them, much harder to take heed of what is happening within the soil that allows the trees growth, which allows the prey, which allows the predator, which circles back to allow the soil community.
The microcomunity within the soil is constantly building and breaking down contents that are used for plant health. Thus our clover can't reach optimum results if our soil is lacking. Throwing amendments on the ground may help but does not always improve the underlying requirements of the soil. This is why crop rotations work so well in our plantings. Each contributing.
Soils have a bunch of fancy named organisms, including workers and even microscopic predators. Without them, the soil is a desert striving to grow a plant. I'm not going in to the bacteria, protozoa, fungi, etc that exists and their functions. And most of us don't have resources for the microscope that can visualize many of these organisms. So I shall defer to youtube, a great source and almost endless supply of info. This particular young lady explains things quite well and I'll let her explain what I'm not smart enough to do. But make sure, if you acknowledge what is taking place in health soil, it will change the way you plant anything from clover to trees. Enjoy, kinda sexy listening to a female microbiologist. And who thot deer p orn could be so arousing??
Here you go Chip. Disclaimer I know only what I read and am not an expert or microbiologist as some might be on here. The internet and youtube are amazing sources if you can weed thru the false and true.
I got my first microscope for Christmas one year at age of six from my self educated dad. He knew the value of learning despite his poor abilities in the public schools.
We all have been exposed to Ray the soil guy by now. The impetus of no till and rotational cropping is quite common with farmers here and across the country. It's foundation is soil health and less abuse of its inherent properties. Same can be applied to everything on our land from food plots, to fruit trees, to the mighty oak. Any of those are dependent in some way on the highest and lowest organisms of plant and animal life.
One teaspoon of soil contains 4 billion microorganisms. From microbes of bacteria and fungi to small invertebrate providing the drive of the carbon/nitrogen cycle of plants and eventual animals. The horn on the deer is somehow related to the microbes of the soil. One cannot exist without the input of the other. It is easy to look at all trees, and admire them, much harder to take heed of what is happening within the soil that allows the trees growth, which allows the prey, which allows the predator, which circles back to allow the soil community.
The microcomunity within the soil is constantly building and breaking down contents that are used for plant health. Thus our clover can't reach optimum results if our soil is lacking. Throwing amendments on the ground may help but does not always improve the underlying requirements of the soil. This is why crop rotations work so well in our plantings. Each contributing.
Soils have a bunch of fancy named organisms, including workers and even microscopic predators. Without them, the soil is a desert striving to grow a plant. I'm not going in to the bacteria, protozoa, fungi, etc that exists and their functions. And most of us don't have resources for the microscope that can visualize many of these organisms. So I shall defer to youtube, a great source and almost endless supply of info. This particular young lady explains things quite well and I'll let her explain what I'm not smart enough to do. But make sure, if you acknowledge what is taking place in health soil, it will change the way you plant anything from clover to trees. Enjoy, kinda sexy listening to a female microbiologist. And who thot deer p orn could be so arousing??
Chipdasqrrl
Active Member
Awesome, thanks! I’ll check the video out. I didn’t think there would be much good information on the Internet about this. I’ve got a microscope waiting to be used!
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Now know how Hillary felt. Fight a losing battle. Maybe I'll just change direction of thread.
Well, then RESIST the urge to wrap this up...
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dogghr
Well-Known Member
So I lied, I will show more clover pics. So many bent out of shape of grasses and weeds and what chemical to use on their clover. Just a few new pics of same philosophy I have with grasses. Do you know one actually functions in conjunction with the other??. A symbiotic relationship I doubt, but a mutually contributing contract. Why do grasses seem to take over a clover field? Of course as we all know the excess available N that the clovers have processed and deposited into the soil. Ignore what youve read from the authorities, most of which are connected to seed and chemical sales. Now if you are a for profit farmer, this doesn't apply.
Anyways, the grasses are soaking up the extra N that if allowed, and indeed sometimes managed, which indirectly helps prevent nusuince weeds some of which have no deer attraction that can become a problem in food plots.
Come follow along and let me show some pics as proof of what I suggest. I may be wrong, but it would be the first time!
Now make no mistake, I do sometimes spray grasses, as I plan to do in a few weeks for the first time in 3-4 years.
What a mess, look at these. Now I'll admit, some of this you see is a grain overseeding done last fall as I do each year into perennials. Great preventer of weeds and helps soak up some of that N, in addition, feed deer thru early winter, and early spring. This plot has endured a yearlong drought in '17 and record rain in '18. Take it from me, never, I say never redo a perennial clover food plot because you think its run its course. I've done that and a complete waste of time. Just rethink your management protocol.
Look at this mess....the clover has to be struggling, almost dead, suffocating, right? WHI or QDMA mags would surely excommunicate me from the annals of clover management. And pay attention to the distant right, we will be there in a minute for the easiest foodplot you will ever do.
But wait, what do we have here, no way, no possible. Fake photography. Yep clovers a foot deep, after I just mowed them. Think the deer care the grasses were there? Look close at the unmowed part. Do you see an infestation of weeds, particularly Thistle that can be my nightmare? Why the heck is that? Think outside the box, not what you constantly read.
Now normally I allow the grains and underlying grasses to go thru their normal process without spraying or mowing as this field is being done. Invasive weeds? Find them. No food for the deer? Bet you. By mid summer as the grain matures and dies, this field will be tore up from beds of deer, bear, and turkey. Why the devil would I not want that. Hiding place for fawns from predators some worry so much about. God Bless America, I love it. And wait, its even better. Some of the cheapest, easiest planting, low maintenance, year round food seed on the face of the earth.
Yep it got reds and whites and chicory and radish and turnips. A big mess.
Lets go over to that distant field I told you pay attention to previously, the infamous Buffalo Plot. Didn't do anything here, never planted, never fertilized. Only allowed the green buffalo to browse and trample the grasses occassionally and clovers began to seed themselves making for a sweat free labor, free seed by nature, food plot. Deer like this one as well as any I've planted. You don't need to buy expensive seed. You don't need to own expensive equipment. And I promise you, there are few weeds in this unmangaged field. You don't need spend every waking minute managing your deer plots. Stop. Listen. Look. Let her teach you how she has been doing it for thousands of years. And I risked my life laying my good hat into this tick and flea infested mess just for you guys. Thank me later.
Seriously I'm not trying to ride a high horse, only showing you can keep it cheap and easy and not lose sleep. Enjoy your land. Nature is going to continue to do her stuff long after we are gone, perhaps better. And the deer will birth, and grow, and rut, and do it all again each year just as they have done for mellineums. Have a great summer. Peace.
"Nature is ever at work building and pulling
down, creating and
destroying, keeping everything
whirling and flowing, allowing no rest
but in rhythmical motion, chasing
everthing in endlesss song out of one from into another." ---John Muir
Anyways, the grasses are soaking up the extra N that if allowed, and indeed sometimes managed, which indirectly helps prevent nusuince weeds some of which have no deer attraction that can become a problem in food plots.
Come follow along and let me show some pics as proof of what I suggest. I may be wrong, but it would be the first time!
Now make no mistake, I do sometimes spray grasses, as I plan to do in a few weeks for the first time in 3-4 years.
What a mess, look at these. Now I'll admit, some of this you see is a grain overseeding done last fall as I do each year into perennials. Great preventer of weeds and helps soak up some of that N, in addition, feed deer thru early winter, and early spring. This plot has endured a yearlong drought in '17 and record rain in '18. Take it from me, never, I say never redo a perennial clover food plot because you think its run its course. I've done that and a complete waste of time. Just rethink your management protocol.
Look at this mess....the clover has to be struggling, almost dead, suffocating, right? WHI or QDMA mags would surely excommunicate me from the annals of clover management. And pay attention to the distant right, we will be there in a minute for the easiest foodplot you will ever do.
But wait, what do we have here, no way, no possible. Fake photography. Yep clovers a foot deep, after I just mowed them. Think the deer care the grasses were there? Look close at the unmowed part. Do you see an infestation of weeds, particularly Thistle that can be my nightmare? Why the heck is that? Think outside the box, not what you constantly read.
Now normally I allow the grains and underlying grasses to go thru their normal process without spraying or mowing as this field is being done. Invasive weeds? Find them. No food for the deer? Bet you. By mid summer as the grain matures and dies, this field will be tore up from beds of deer, bear, and turkey. Why the devil would I not want that. Hiding place for fawns from predators some worry so much about. God Bless America, I love it. And wait, its even better. Some of the cheapest, easiest planting, low maintenance, year round food seed on the face of the earth.
Yep it got reds and whites and chicory and radish and turnips. A big mess.
Lets go over to that distant field I told you pay attention to previously, the infamous Buffalo Plot. Didn't do anything here, never planted, never fertilized. Only allowed the green buffalo to browse and trample the grasses occassionally and clovers began to seed themselves making for a sweat free labor, free seed by nature, food plot. Deer like this one as well as any I've planted. You don't need to buy expensive seed. You don't need to own expensive equipment. And I promise you, there are few weeds in this unmangaged field. You don't need spend every waking minute managing your deer plots. Stop. Listen. Look. Let her teach you how she has been doing it for thousands of years. And I risked my life laying my good hat into this tick and flea infested mess just for you guys. Thank me later.
Seriously I'm not trying to ride a high horse, only showing you can keep it cheap and easy and not lose sleep. Enjoy your land. Nature is going to continue to do her stuff long after we are gone, perhaps better. And the deer will birth, and grow, and rut, and do it all again each year just as they have done for mellineums. Have a great summer. Peace.
"Nature is ever at work building and pulling
down, creating and
destroying, keeping everything
whirling and flowing, allowing no rest
but in rhythmical motion, chasing
everthing in endlesss song out of one from into another." ---John Muir
pinetag
Well-Known Member
I like your style dogghr! Your low maintenance food plot approach is what I'm striving for on my property. Even though this is my first full year of food plotting, I am seeing good results with perennial clover and grains. Just this past week I found multiple beds in my creek plot and this is the first evidence I have of deer bedding in my upper 20 acres. There are some weeds growing in there but for the little bit of prep work I have applied to the dirt, it is coming along nicely thanks to the guidance/recommendations from you and many others on this site! Keep all the good advice coming!
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dogghr
Well-Known Member
Thanks Pinetag. BrianVT a member on here, and I walked each others properties this past month. Our properties are about 15 min apart as the F16 flies ( ok 1 sec) and 45 min by road. We both talked how it is difficult to find the time to do all we would like. He also was usuing clover as his mainstay. Really liked how his were miniplots of about an acre or less that fed the deer within his forests. I think it is hard to beat clovers and grains, with a few brassica thrown in, for those of us along a belt from PA to NC east to west. Clover plots are nearly a yearround food for us with very little cost and maintenance. As I've said many times, my first plots were done with bed spring and ATV and were some of the best I've ever had. Clovers have some of the highest protein values of any foodplot food. Plus there is no fencing off, no constant mowing if one chooses, and they do decent at even poor ph. I will say weed and grass management is the easiest with ph of 6.5 or better. Remember even weeds, especially ones deer like, are mining the soil for nutrients, and busting up the hardpan with their taproots.
Even I sometimes forget, if I allow the grasses/grains to grow ugly, my bad weeds such as thistle can't take hold. Good luck with your plots, you have a beautiful place.
Thanks G. Dgallow is coming by in a few weeks and knowing how he loves to manage with cattle I'm sure he will want to put some in these fields. Luckily for me, too much clover is not good for many bovine. Hope your place is coming along good, minus the rattlers.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Yep that be great G. I PM you some details when I get a chance.
True, I told him to protect that dome and he sent me pic of his swollen sunburned feet. Not a problem here in WV when we travel south as we never wear shoes no way.
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
If any deer go hungry around you, it's their own fault. Nice plots!
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Just trying to emulate our hero. Please bring me some soil, you can spare it.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Last wk played the odds and planted brassica T&M w rain coming in. Planted around 1# PTT 1# DER 2# Daikon w some lettuce and leftover seed thrown in. 80# urea +150# 19-19-19. Sprayed gly since I’d really let this go fallow. Rain came few days later. Hopefully works. Only brassica planting this year. Will overseed w grains and RC late Oct.
Alfalfa?? Don’t plant it the experts say. Too much trouble. Won’t last. Too expensive. Have to bale or crop will die. You be the judge in this 7 yo plot. Mix of clovers , chicory, alfalfa. Only mowed occasionally. Never baled. Add 0-20-20 fert w boron/borax each year. Deer love it like cocaine. Look close because if you don’t have an exclusion cage you’d swear there was no alfalfa in there. Clover shade it out? Bull crap. Grasses a problem? Bull crap again.
Silky dogwood need to be caged. Produced fruit this year so hopefully birds will be doing some of my planting. I thinks these were planted 2017. Have progressed faster than planted hazelnuts. Hazelnuts slower plus bugs really like them. And deer.
Never using tubes again. Deer just eat new growth as it emerges. Waste of time and money for me. Notice the 8ft tall Goldenrod. Better screening that survives ice wind and snow thru hunting season much better than EW. And it’s free screening.
This was last year’s brassica to be rotated to grain and clover peas. U can see some clover from over seed of. WR/ RC last fall as brassica were browsed.
“Harmony with land is like harmony with a friend; you cannot cherish his right hand and chop off his left.” - - Aldo Leopold
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Alfalfa?? Don’t plant it the experts say. Too much trouble. Won’t last. Too expensive. Have to bale or crop will die. You be the judge in this 7 yo plot. Mix of clovers , chicory, alfalfa. Only mowed occasionally. Never baled. Add 0-20-20 fert w boron/borax each year. Deer love it like cocaine. Look close because if you don’t have an exclusion cage you’d swear there was no alfalfa in there. Clover shade it out? Bull crap. Grasses a problem? Bull crap again.
Silky dogwood need to be caged. Produced fruit this year so hopefully birds will be doing some of my planting. I thinks these were planted 2017. Have progressed faster than planted hazelnuts. Hazelnuts slower plus bugs really like them. And deer.
Never using tubes again. Deer just eat new growth as it emerges. Waste of time and money for me. Notice the 8ft tall Goldenrod. Better screening that survives ice wind and snow thru hunting season much better than EW. And it’s free screening.
This was last year’s brassica to be rotated to grain and clover peas. U can see some clover from over seed of. WR/ RC last fall as brassica were browsed.
“Harmony with land is like harmony with a friend; you cannot cherish his right hand and chop off his left.” - - Aldo Leopold
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Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Awesome 7 year old plot. How many times have you used cleth on it?
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Once w Cleth I believe and this past may w Imox which I really liked. My real nemesis in plot is goldenrod beneath a walnut tree and thistle in the driest section. This is is ridge top and south facing plot that really gets baked. Alfalfa and chicory performs well under those conditions. I spot spray gly on the thistle and mow foot high the goldenrod.
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Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Do you have any trouble with smartweed?
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Not in this plot but yes in my bottom clover plot in some years that are wet. I’m past due thanks to 2 wet years of getting lime spread. Ph has drifted back to 5.8 in some areas. When ph is 6.5 I don’t have problem so much w weeds and grasses. Alfalfa plot is still ph 7. I haven’t added lime for 10 years and I think past crop rotations have helped maintain that. I’m managing as many acres In Fallow mode as I’m planting. Actually much more.
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deer patch
Well-Known Member
Glad to see you posting again on your land tour. I like your ramblings as you call it. You have yet to tell about your results of spraying of Imox or did I miss that one? I'm curious to see if the residual of Imox effects of your plantings.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Thanks Deerpatch. Here is the review I did on another thread to finish it. Results after 5 weeks after spraying. I would use it again but not as frequently as Cleth which I think should be cheaper in the long run. But what it killed it did good with and I think if using in a normal rain year it would work better. Our rains thru June were record levels. I haven't used it yet on a plot I had planned rotation. Really don't think significant residual would be an issue as I can see grasses and goldenrod slowly returning in sprayed fields. Thanks for reading. Following is copy of that review....
If you think Cleth requires patience for kill , you best pull up a chair, build a fire, let Triple do a 12 hour butt roast, read about every plant Native Hunter knows, review the Mennonite spray chemical combos he recommends , and re read all the great land threads on here as it is slow to work. Perhaps in part due to monsoons we’ve had this year constantly.
It has killed most grasses and even put a good hurt on the sedges. It set back many weeds like horse nettle ,marstail, and goldenrod. In one field it seems to have prevented reaccurance of thistle which it often had, and inhibed its growth in another. Overall pleased
But since I typically don’t worry much of weeds or grasses in plots, I prob would be just as happy w cleth ive used in past. I also think if I could’ve mowed the clover/alfalfa within couple wks of spraying then the kill would have been even better.
Good stuff but not a miracle spray.
