MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I don't buy that. I refuse to believe the food supply is doomed to get $hittier and more scarce from here. If the people demanded quality food, the market would provide it.
Regenerative Plotting
- Thread starter MarkDarvin
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Okvet03
Member
Not trying to hijack this thread but it seems the most appropriate place to post as I’d really like to go regenerative from day one. I have a 6 acre field with very sandy soil and plenty of bare patches. It was last disked and planted in WR three years ago. It’s coming back as an old field with a lot of ragweed, little blue, broomsedge and other natives. My plans are to no-till in a diverse mix, similar to a green cover seed soil builder mix. My thoughts are that nature will provide enough browse for the deer in the spring so my initial primary goal will be soil health then concentrate on more deer oriented mix in the fall. I’m fine with having weeds in my plot as they develop. My goal is to use as little inputs as possible if any. I know this might sound like a recipe for failure to many but I won’t know until I try. My pH is 5.4. Is it possible for a diverse mix to buffer itself or should I add lime?
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I think it sounds like a great plan! Deer like a lot of those weeds, any many have a lot of nutritional value. Also remember that weeds that will grow in acidic and sandy soil will help change that soil. That's what they were meant to do...
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dogghr
Well-Known Member
I think your plan sounds good and while I agree w Cat, I’d add lime this spring if u can afford to get that ph up. Proper ph helps plants utilize what in soil or any fert you might choose to add. Deer love ragweed btw.
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weekender21
Well-Known Member
I have (had) similar soil PH @ 5.6. I’ve yet to add fertilizer or spray but I have been spreading lime annually. Planning to conduct a soil test this summer after two years and two lime applications.
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BenAllgood
Well-Known Member
Not doubting, but I'd like to know if there are examples of where people raised the pH of the soil without any additives except plants.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Plants and organic matter lower soil PH, not raise it. Liming is the only practical way to raise soil PH. There's no reason to be scared of liming soil, it's not a poisonous chemical, it's only ground powdered rock. The following primer off of Wikipedia spells out what determines soil PH;
Factors affecting soil pH
The pH of a natural soil depends on the mineral composition of the parent material of the soil, and the weathering reactions undergone by that parent material. In warm, humid environments, soil acidification occurs over time as the products of weathering are leached by water moving laterally or downwards through the soil. In dry climates, however, soil weathering and leaching are less intense and soil pH is often neutral or alkaline.
Sources of acidity
Many processes contribute to soil acidification. These include:
- Rainfall: Acid soils are most often found in areas of high rainfall. Rainwater has a slightly acidic pH (usually about 5.7) due to a reaction with CO2 in the atmosphere that forms carbonic acid. When this water flows through soil it results in the leaching of basic cations from the soil as bicarbonates; this increases the percentage of Al3+ and H+ relative to other cations.
- Root respiration and decomposition of organic matter by microorganisms releases CO2 which increases the carbonic acid (H2CO3) concentration and subsequent leaching.
- Plant growth: Plants take up nutrients in the form of ions (e.g. NO−3, NH+4, Ca2+, H2PO−4), and they often take up more cations than anions. However plants must maintain a neutral charge in their roots. In order to compensate for the extra positive charge, they will release H+ ions from the root. Some plants also exude organic acids into the soil to acidify the zone around their roots to help solubilize metal nutrients that are insoluble at neutral pH, such as iron (Fe).
- Fertilizer use: Ammonium (NH+4) fertilizers react in the soil by the process of nitrification to form nitrate (NO−3), and in the process release H+ ions.
- Acid rain: The burning of fossil fuels releases oxides of sulfur and nitrogen into the atmosphere. These react with water in the atmosphere to form sulfuric and nitric acid in rain.
- Oxidative weathering: Oxidation of some primary minerals, especially sulfides and those containing Fe2+, generate acidity. This process is often accelerated by human activity:
- Mine spoil: Severely acidic conditions can form in soils near some mine spoils due to the oxidation of pyrite.
- Acid sulfate soils formed naturally in waterlogged coastal and estuarine environments can become highly acidic when drained or excavated.
Total soil alkalinity increases with:
- Weathering of silicate, aluminosilicate and carbonate minerals containing Na+, Ca2+, Mg2+ and K+;
- Addition of silicate, aluminosilicate and carbonate minerals to soils; this may happen by deposition of material eroded elsewhere by wind or water, or by mixing of the soil with less weathered material (such as the addition of limestone to acid soils);
- Addition of water containing dissolved bicarbonates (as occurs when irrigating with high-bicarbonate waters).
- The accumulation of alkalinity in a soil (as carbonates and bicarbonates of Na, K, Ca and Mg) occurs when there is insufficient water flowing through the soils to leach soluble salts. This may be due to arid conditions, or poor internal soil drainage; in these situations most of the water that enters the soil is transpired (taken up by plants) or evaporates, rather than flowing through the soil.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Pelletized lime is a premium price, and has no more value per bag than powdered. For a six acre field I'd try to get a lime spreader truck in, it's so much cheaper and easier then bags. I'd ask around the local farmers of local feed mill, often there's a guy doing it that doesn't advertise, because all of the farmers talk to each other at the local restaurant over coffee in the morning and know who to get.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
On smaller plots that aren't accessible to equipment, like a half acre or so, I buy a ton (40-50lb bags for $94.00) of powdered lime, put on old clothes and a dust mask, distribute the bags over the plot, and then pour half a bag in a five gallon bucket and walk along slinging it to the downwind side as I walk. Several hours of work and it's done, but then a shower and clean clothes are in order.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Do remember that improving OM or soils already with good OM tend to buffer ph changes so focusing on that aspect can help you save time and money over time with your lime applications. In addition choice of crops and / or their rotation can also inhibit drops in ph. Soils and location have an obvious large affect as sandy and clay soil being difficult to maintain a good ph. Clay soils more amendable by its nature to improve qualities. Nitrogen and sulphur additions can tend to cause acidity especially without diversified crop rotation.
My fields were taken from low 5s to 6.5- 7 with one July application of powder lime, no incorporation. And that ph was maintained for 9 years before it began to drop back toward 6. In part that is due to choice of planting choices and methods. Charts are easily available showing plant requirements and effects to soil. If you can get a lime truck to your fields, it is certainly the easiest and cheapest method. Neutral phs around 6-7 makes for good food plotting plant growth typically and improves uptake and incorporation of amendments.
But keep in mind, if one wants to save money, there is a bunch of acid loving plants that deer browse quite aggressivly, such as dandelion and ragweed and several others. Clovers will and do occur naturally and grains can do decent for fall attraction on existing poor soils. Less is sometimes more.
My fields were taken from low 5s to 6.5- 7 with one July application of powder lime, no incorporation. And that ph was maintained for 9 years before it began to drop back toward 6. In part that is due to choice of planting choices and methods. Charts are easily available showing plant requirements and effects to soil. If you can get a lime truck to your fields, it is certainly the easiest and cheapest method. Neutral phs around 6-7 makes for good food plotting plant growth typically and improves uptake and incorporation of amendments.
But keep in mind, if one wants to save money, there is a bunch of acid loving plants that deer browse quite aggressivly, such as dandelion and ragweed and several others. Clovers will and do occur naturally and grains can do decent for fall attraction on existing poor soils. Less is sometimes more.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Lbs per acre depends on the soil test results, but I don't always test soils every year, if a test shows that a plot is low on PH I will put as much on as I can afford or have time and energy to put on. If a plot is way low on PH there's not a lot of danger of getting the PH too high with an application or two. I've put 1 ton on a half acre that had a PH tested at 6.2 and it made the nicest clover plot I've ever had.
DocHolladay
Well-Known Member
I have a plot that was native vegetation for several years before I was given permission to hunt it and plant. I tested it once after I had been planting it for about 3 years and the ph was 6.5. I did fertilize with 13-13-13 once about 3 years ago, but haven’t done it since. I plan on pulling soil tests again this year to see the OM, ph, and any amendments needed.
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MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
You've got a logistics problem. What kind of equipment do you have now, and what kind of neighbors do you have? Any farmers, golf courses, landscapers, or snow removers around?
I rent equipment from about 45 miles away. It costs money to get it delivered, but it can be done. There is a tipping point between buying equipment, renting equipment, or hiring it done.
If you can't come up with any ways to get it spread, I'd start eating that elephant one bite at a time. Segment that plot into 1 acre grids, and spread xx amount per acre at a time as you can get to it. It's taken me roughly three years to get all my lime on a new plot.
I would get another soil test done before you do anything. Make sure you get base saturation numbers, buffer pH, and ppm readings on calcium and magnesium. Odds are you're low in Mg if you're sandy, so you can use the cheaper and more effective dolomitic lime, and lower rates to get your pH up.
Lastly, put the iron back in the grove. If you can raise your organic matter, that will help cover up lots of challenges. Stay away from nitrogen and phosphorus fertilizers too. Where exactly are you located?
Okvet03
Member
As far as equipment, I have a 1971 JD 4320, the SCV's need some work. I have a new Kubota MX5800 with a FEL but no rear hydraulics. I wish I'd bought a little more tractor with this one. I have a 3 pt spreader that works fine on the Kubota. I also have a 6' brush hog, a disc and old Deere DR drill that needs some work. My truck is a 1999 Chevy Z71. My trailer is a light duty single axle. I can rent a TYE No till drill from NRCS. I'm definitely challenged when it comes to moving heavy loads. A roller crimper is at the top of my wish list, I've been drooling over a No till drill, but that won't pass committee right now. The local feed store sells pelletized lime for 215 per ton. There is another store a hour away that loans out a spreader and the aglime is ~60 per ton. I may see if I can borrow a friends truck and go that route. Most of the ag in my area is grazing and some large hay fields. The land is in Tecumseh, OK. Besides the food plots I'm cutting down a lot of eastern red cedars. I'm planning on doing some hack and squirt in the mostly closed canopy timber later this year. I have a fire prescription if the weather ever cooperates and I can get enough people together. the road system breaks the property up in to a lot of 5-15 acre areas. I'm picking 3 roughly 10 acre blocks and working on those for native habitat this year. Total acreage is about 250. I'll end up having about 10-15 acres in plots over time.
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swat1018
Well-Known Member
With lots of pasture around, I'd think someone has a spreader for fert/lime close.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Maybe you can find one of these, it would solve your lime spreading problem. It spreads bagged powdered lime like a dream, a ton at a time, with the application rate being fully adjustable. I picked up this 10' John Deere Lime Drill in good condition at an auction for $175. These things are also called a drop spreader, and years ago every farmer had one.
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
Yep. If you can get your hands on a big enough truck to pull 5,000-6,000 lbs twice, I'd try to make two runs in one day. Wait a year and test your soil again. But make sure you know the analysis on the ag lime. You don't want to put high calcium lime on sandy soil.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
I can get one of those easily and cheap. How do u set for amt of lime/ ac?
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