Recreating a Deer Woods

[Mennoniteman]

I like our Browning cameras, but this year we bought 4 Browning Dark Ops HD Max - BTC-6HD-Max because we've been noticing the mature bucks being camera shy if a red light blinks, anyway, these camers don't take good nighttime pictures, they all look like there's a heavy fog, this gets much worse as the batteries go down.
Which models are you using, and have you had this issue?

 

[Chainsaw]

There are four dark ops in the mix Mennoniteman. Their night time pics are good enough to check the deer out but are not great photos. They work especially well for taking poachers pictures at night as the poachers do not sense the cameras without a flash like the mature deer do. However as with deer the night pictures without flash are not so clear.

The models we are using that are not out yet for the season are HD850-C(Strikeforce 850HD), SHOP(Strikeforce HD PRO), and 5HDX(Strikeforce Extreme). Those out in the field are also Strike Force but could be different model numbers/older. So far all of the Strikeforce models have taken great photographs. Have been able to buy Strikeforces on sale at mostly $99, no shipping and sometimes no tax either.
EDIT-The 5HDX was purchased this year so that one has not been out yet. It also looks like an older model than the Strikeforce Pro.
Here all mature bucks have shown themselves to be sensitive to every camera we have used including Reconyx. We normally mount them just above knee level. Tried mounting high but it cut down on the field of view size. Most deer have been especially sensitive day or night when they are walking directly towards the camera and when it is pointed at a deer bed or too close to their line of travel. They have been less sensitive to the cameras when we have them set further back from the deer activity, and when the cameras are mostly perpendicular to the trail and not too close. The exception to further back would be deer beds—have been unable to get them far enough back from the beds due to brush, trees and such. This is not to say that bedding pictures have not been taken but that they are rare as the deer of all ages generally haven’t tolerated it. All of the mature bucks here generally do not like the cameras day or night yet sometimes some will not be bothered at some locations yet are highly bothered at others. No mature deer get their picture taken by the same camera for more than a couple days in a row at a particular site here even though they may not show any sensitivity in their first encounter. The cameras do not appear to cause the mature deer to leave the property but it does appear the mature deer avoid them once they know they are there. And these observations are made with cameras that are not being checked and are generally set to reactivate in 30 seconds on trails and take four rapid exposures with each hit.

Making a trip into the property to check cameras appears to have the same negative affect to mature buck daytime movement as going in hunting does. Here I believe if we checked our cameras weekly our mature buck sightings which are few enough already might be reduced to zero.

Note, I use the word “here” a lot and expect that in other properties like everything else the deer may react differently.

 

[swat1018]

I haven't noticed a price fluctuation, but it seems I get a 100 pack about the same time every year.

 

[Chainsaw]

Encouraged by the thirty-two degree temperatures and a north wind I hunted the back side of the property yesterday morning. Accessing the back of the property put me by several cameras so on the way out I pulled the cards and restocked them with fresh cards. The amount of natural daytime deer movement at lower impact stand locations was very encouraging and a couple of weeks earlier than normal. Achieving better and better daytime movement that we can more easily access is something we have been working on for many years as we have worked on habitat changes. Although the property is eons ahead of where it used to be there is still more that can be done to encourage more daytime movement within the property. Actually that is an understatement; the more habitat improvements done to the property, the more improvements get added to the list. Here are some of the pictures from yesterday’s card pulls;


The ground is littered with thousands and thousands of apples so a large amount of does are on the property and getting their pictures taken every hour of every day and still more apples are falling. I don't know if we are seeing signs of an early rut or if all the does are causing some of the bucks to move earlier in the daytime. Or maybe this property is just seeing what is normal deer movement when the deer feel secure. In any case it is definitely SHOW TIME.

 

[pinetag]

Encouraged by the thirty-two degree temperatures and a north wind I hunted the back side of the property yesterday morning. Accessing the back of the property put me by several cameras so on the way out I pulled the cards and restocked them with fresh cards. The amount of natural daytime deer movement at lower impact stand locations was very encouraging and a couple of weeks earlier than normal. Achieving better and better daytime movement that we can more easily access is something we have been working on for many years as we have worked on habitat changes. Although the property is eons ahead of where it used to be there is still more that can be done to encourage more daytime movement within the property. Actually that is an understatement; the more habitat improvements done to the property, the more improvements get added to the list. Here are some of the pictures from yesterday’s card pulls;

View attachment 20291
View attachment 20292 View attachment 20293 View attachment 20294 View attachment 20295 View attachment 20296 View attachment 20297 The ground is littered with thousands and thousands of apples so a large amount of does are on the property and getting their pictures taken every hour of every day and still more apples are falling. I don't know if we are seeing signs of an early rut or if all the does are causing some of the bucks to move earlier in the daytime. Or maybe this property is just seeing what is normal deer movement when the deer feel secure. In any case it is definitely SHOW TIME.

That last buck is a hoss! Hope you have a stand nearby.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, Pics look encouraging. It’s clear you superior soils really impact horn growth. I’m sure jealous about your late dropping apples. Our apples finished dropping (and were eaten) a month ago.

 

[Triple C]

Dave - One of my favorite threads to follow on the forum. Always good stuff!

 

[George]

Dave I would say that you have a pretty legit deer farm.

G

 

[Chainsaw]

That last buck is a hoss! Hope you have a stand nearby.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

You are spot on Pinetag, that buck is something special, a real anomaly for this area. I had fully intended to hunt that buck exclusively this season but have changed my mind at least for now. I’m not ready to give up the thrill of following him thru the seasons with trail cams. Each year the buck just gets better, he is developing his first drop tine this year. Now if he steps out in front of me one day all bets are off; for now though he is not on my hunt list. He is at the top of my wife’s hunt list though so needs to not let his guard down if he is to make it thru another season. I’m rooting for both of them.

 

[Chainsaw]

Dave, Pics look encouraging. It’s clear you superior soils really impact horn growth. I’m sure jealous about your late dropping apples. Our apples finished dropping (and were eaten) a month ago.

Tom, it is really unexpected but very exciting that we are growing multiple deer with antlers over 130 here where ten years ago that was not happening at all and seemed impossible. The great soils are definitely a factor but we have always had that so other things are also in play.

The apples are a definite plus to this property and are at the top of my list to preserve what trees there are while adding many, many more. While with the drought experienced here, this year is a relatively poor apple year the sheer number of apple trees is still creating a draw that is unmatched locally. Even with the early leaf drop some trees are still holding well. Ryan from Blue Hill Wildlife Nursery is helping me pick out apple tree winners from this property worthy of using for grafting to create even more winners here in the future as well as pick out special stock that he may want to use in his nursery business. Here is an October 25 picture (two days ago) of a couple trees that have just begun to drop some apples that we are watching closely. These trees are extremely tall and thus may be a fit for properties with bears. They have managed to grow tall despite them being located in a stand of hickory and hard maple. If a bear fell out of the tops one of these babies he or she would be history.

I'll keep in touch with you on any late trees from here that Ryan puts into production just in case you want to add late dropping apples to your property. Growing apple trees for deer is becoming a lot easier than it used to be. This is due to using wild apple tree scions from trees that have shown to be disease resistant and using seedling rootstock that grows full size trees versus dwarfs and semi-dwarfs and such. Note; not all wild stock of course is disease resistant and only a handful of the thousands of orchard type apple trees are disease resistant.

Warning; This apple thing can become quite addicting and can take on a life of its own. For example last year I planted around 125 year old apple and pear trees, grafted over 600 and now have 240 (360 failed-1st attempt so expected) growing in my nursery area. And another 125 or so additional apple trees are on order for spring 2021 delivery. And to top it off here the deer are moving like crazy and I'm in the woods searching for and evaluating the performance of the some of the three thousand wild apple trees already growing on the property. And wives hate February when you fill up the refrigerator with bags and bags of wood( technical word for scions taken off apple trees to be used for grafting). With all of that said, I am having a ball with it and would love to see your property full of late holding apple trees in a few years.

 

[Elkaddict]

Keep me posted on the apples. I remember visiting with you when you were planning a substantial timber harvest and opining that all the new growth would significantly increase both browse and cover. That, your apples and your low pressure hunting style is probably the greatest contributor to what you are seeing. I suspect things will improve for a number years...until another timber harvest or substantial hinge cuts are required. About the only thing I can imagine that would accelerate things is 20 or 30 acres of summer protein (clover or soybeans). Can’t wait to see what your deer paradise evolves into.

 

[Buckly]

Speaking from my experience. Bears like my taller apple trees. Maybe they feel better more isolated up there. They always break branches on my taller trees up top. Shorter trees seem less affected. I have seen bears tumble out of tall trees. They hit every branch they can on the way down. Then hit with a thud and run away Maybe they feel it later Lol.

 

[Chainsaw]

Speaking from my experience. Bears like my taller apple trees. Maybe they feel better more isolated up there. They always break branches on my taller trees up top. Shorter trees seem less affected. I have seen bears tumble out of tall trees. They hit every branch they can on the way down. Then hit with a thud and run away Maybe they feel it later Lol.

That is very interesting Buckly. We do not have bears on our property but expect that someday we will. With that in mind I was thinking that taller, larger trees would hold up better than the normal twenty foot type trees. And of course large, tall trees don’t grow overnight either and given full sun they would branch all the way up which would slow down their falls. And how tall are your taller trees that the bears damaged at the top? From what you have seen regarding bear damage do the multi-stem trees fare better than single stem trees?

 

[Chainsaw]

Keep me posted on the apples. I remember visiting with you when you were planning a substantial timber harvest and opining that all the new growth would significantly increase both browse and cover. That, your apples and your low pressure hunting style is probably the greatest contributor to what you are seeing. I suspect things will improve for a number years...until another timber harvest or substantial hinge cuts are required. About the only thing I can imagine that would accelerate things is 20 or 30 acres of summer protein (clover or soybeans). Can’t wait to see what your deer paradise evolves into.

Yes Tom, we were working on doing a substantial timber cut and just as I had hoped and you had predicted it has grown into extreme deer cover and provides a large amount of browse. The cut areas are still producing food and cover but it did take a couple of years after the cutting for the cover part to fill in. We had left some acreage uncut and it is probably about that time to begin lining up a cutover of the uncut area.

It is timely you should mention adding the summer protein element to the property. As you know Dennis has been growing mostly grains on thirty - five acres or so of our fields for quite a few years now (no-till) and combining it for feeding cows.
Well, an aggressive weed called Cheat Weed has overtaken all of the grain fields to the point that very little wheat, rye or triticale was even combined for the cows this past summer. None of the crop this year was clean and thus could not be used for future seeding. So we were left with the dilemma of how to cleanup the cheat weed.

Dennis does not need corn or soybeans; his fields grow both better corn and soy than mine and more than enough to meet his needs. So that left us with hay fields as an alternative for a couple of years to clean up the cheat weed. And Dennis figured we could throw perennial clover into the mix so we did. Annuals like soybean, radish, kale, rye and turnips also went into the seed mix but of course the annuals will mostly only affect this season. The plan was for Dennis to make the first cuts as late as possible in June to avoid running over fawns.

The fields were sprayed and more cheat weed appeared so the fields were sprayed again and then planted but a large amount of volunteer green came up between no-till rows which we think may be more cheat weed. We will know for sure next spring but for now our plan to eliminate the cheat weed thru growing hay is off to a weak start. And with the cheat weed seeds maturing in late spring early summer that puts the need to first cut the fields possibly right during the maximum fawn birthing period.

Given that Dennis doesn’t need corn or soy which might be a way to clean up the fields we are not sure of our next steps. We need to figure out the most economical and expedient way to clean the fields of the cheat weed assuming the repetitive hay cutting doesn’t do it. Has anyone else dealt with a cheat weed problem in their crop fields? Suggestions needed.

 

[Elkaddict]

If I were in your shoes, I’d probably put in RR beans even if it meant broadcasting them. Yes, thats a lot of work if you’re not set up for it, but it’s the only way I think you’re going to get a head of your weed problem. I’d at least start in 10 acre increments. It might even take a couple years..... I’m dealing with a similar infestation of lambsquarter. I’ll probably put in 10 acres next year. I’ve got to do something because I’m being overrun by the damned stuff. It even has be looking at no-till equipment which I really don’t want to spend the $ on. Yes, 1st world problems for sure....but I’m still unhappy about it.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Yes Tom, we were working on doing a substantial timber cut and just as I had hoped and you had predicted it has grown into extreme deer cover and provides a large amount of browse. The cut areas are still producing food and cover but it did take a couple of years after the cutting for the cover part to fill in. We had left some acreage uncut and it is probably about that time to begin lining up a cutover of the uncut area.

It is timely you should mention adding the summer protein element to the property. As you know Dennis has been growing mostly grains on thirty - five acres or so of our fields for quite a few years now (no-till) and combining it for feeding cows.
Well, an aggressive weed called Cheat Weed has overtaken all of the grain fields to the point that very little wheat, rye or triticale was even combined for the cows this past summer. None of the crop this year was clean and thus could not be used for future seeding. So we were left with the dilemma of how to cleanup the cheat weed.

Dennis does not need corn or soybeans; his fields grow both better corn and soy than mine and more than enough to meet his needs. So that left us with hay fields as an alternative for a couple of years to clean up the cheat weed. And Dennis figured we could throw perennial clover into the mix so we did. Annuals like soybean, radish, kale, rye and turnips also went into the seed mix but of course the annuals will mostly only affect this season. The plan was for Dennis will make the first cuts as late as possible in June to avoid running over fawns.

The fields were sprayed and more cheat weed appeared so the fields were sprayed again and then planted but a large amount of volunteer green came up between no-till rows which we think may be more cheat weed. We will know for sure next spring but for now our plan to eliminate the cheat weed thru growing hay is off to a weak start. And with the cheat weed seeds maturing in late spring early summer that puts the need to first cut the fields possibly right during the maximum fawn birthing period.

Given that Dennis doesn’t need corn or soy which might be a way to clean up the fields we are not sure of our next steps. We need to figure out the most economical and expedient way to clean the fields of the cheat weed assuming the repetitive hay cutting doesn’t do it. Has anyone else dealt with a cheat weed problem in their crop fields? Suggestions needed.

You need to grow a monoculture of either corn, soybeans, or clover. I'd suggest red clover, since the farmer could make hay, and that's the easiest to spray for the cheatgrass. Frostseed clover in late winter then spray with imazethepyr when the weeds are 3" high. Spray again as needed and the cheatgrass will disappear.

 

[Buckly]

That is very interesting Buckly. We do not have bears on our property but expect that someday we will. With that in mind I was thinking that taller, larger trees would hold up better than the normal twenty foot type trees. And of course large, tall trees don’t grow overnight either and given full sun they would branch all the way up which would slow down their falls. And how tall are your taller trees that the bears damaged at the top? From what you have seen regarding bear damage do the multi-stem trees fare better than single stem trees?

I don’t think apple trees naturally grow tall but, as you mentioned if they are in by a hickory grove or imbedded in a bunch of other trees then they can get 30-40 ft or more in cases that I have. Bears have no problem with that height so there’s a lot of branches to fall on with trees that surround. I’ve never seen a 40-45 ft tree out in the open. I will say that these taller trees really don’t have any lower branches or apple down low anyway. Everything is way up on these trees. I have no answers as to why. Possibly they just don’t need to climb on the smaller trees. And with bears it’s highly individual. Some bears are just bears. We don’t have a huge amount of bear but enough. I’ve sat in some stands and looked around and every single apple tree that is in sight Taller ones, have branches busted at the tops. At first I thought just heavy apple loads until I witnessed the perpetrators actions. It’s not every year either. Just particular bears I guess. But normal apples out in the open I think they just eat off lower branches and ground. Tall ones they climb. I’m going to add, it’s awfully hard to kill a mature apple tree. These trees put on a bunch of new growth because of breakage. And I have soooooo many trees I certainly don’t care about the broken branches. If I had an apple farm and wanted nice apples trees then that would be another story

 

[Chainsaw]

Thanks Elk and Mennoniteman for your recommendations. Dennis thinks both would work and I lean towards the clover method because it would give Dennis some hay which he can use. Dennis is sticking to his plan which he had started this summer. Meanwhile, I intend to try the red clover method on a tiny corner of one of the affected fields so if the current attempt doesn’t eliminate the cheat grass we’ll have tested the clover method. And that will give us a clear path to success that can be implemented quickly.

Thanks Buckly for sharing your bear experiences with us. As to tall trees we did have one that measured forty-five ft. tall, had grown up in a hedgerow and had enough lower branches that it likely was open grown. Over a three year period it died and as I look back it could have been fireblight. We had never seen fireblight here before and possibly that giant old apple tree hadn’t either. So in the case of that apple tree it appeared that the propensity to grow so tall was genetically induced. It is definitely not the norm in this area and likely most here have never heard of nor seen a forty ft. tall open grown apple tree. Bears are seen as close as five miles from here and I’m not looking forward to seeing them here. Based on your experience though and for our woods apples it doesn’t appear that it will be a big deal if/when they do move into this area.

 

[Chainsaw]

A bunch of the girls stopped by yesterday evening while I was preparing supper. The way they are hanging around you would think that they never saw a guy cooking while his wife is out hunting giant bucks. Every once in a while they would all stare at me at once and I’d swear they were smiling; little did they know that venison stew was for supper!
Who would have thought when women wanted equal rights and got jobs in the seventies that household duties would end up being shared fifty years later upon retirement? On the good side I cooked enough last night to last us for three days. After that it is the wife’s show for a day or two. Almost forgot the original point of the picture is that the does come to feed by our barn kitchen this time of year to get away from the bucks. So while the bucks are ready not all of the ladies are yet.

 

[Chainsaw]

Over due to post for the Deer Habitat and Deer Hunter forum threads.

But LIFE comes first, even before habitat plans. A ride from Samaritan Hospital via Lewis County Transport to Albany Med proved that. The new focus: a Glioma brain tumor in the parietal region which has affected (hopefully not permanently) my typing and spelling abilities. It is now 2 weeks after surgery, the stitches are out and I'm beginning to see small improvements but not enough to write a coherent sentence. My wife is writing this for me today. The odd thing is that I can speak and carry on conversation as though nothing has happened. So contacting me by phone is welcomed. PM me and I will send you my phone number. In several weeks I will be starting radiation and chemo therapy to keep that monster at bay.

Other than that life blip, all is going well. It is our time of year and it is exciting to start the season. The deer are active and visiting Turning Point (TP) apple tree morning and evening. The lawn was left uncut this year and the deer are enjoying the brush in the yard (good thing we live in the woods.) Friends are helping with habitat efforts to keep things going while I recuperate from surgery. TP and special apple development continues as a focus of our small group of apple developers. One by one we are discovering new trees which are .001% of the trees we see.

Meanwhile my wife and I are having a great time rebuilding our cottage. Over the years we have personally cut trees, sawed timbers into boards. The entire cottage, with the exception of the rafters and sill plates, are made from our wood. The joy of seeing the end product is unexplainable.

We hope you all have a great deer season and I am looking forward to reading about your woods adventures. The Dr. says that I will be deer hunting this year if I slow down!