Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. That would be something good for me to test next year.
Qustion for the Raddish Gurus
- Thread starter Native Hunter
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Thanks for the info. That would be something good for me to test next year.
Elkaddict
Well-Known Member
IMO, it's worth your testing. It's possible that on year 3 of brassicas, they've found them presently more tasteful than radish. They are on them much earlier than last year. Even the bears have taken a fancy. My present view is there is something about them that is more attractive than GHR, PTT or DER. Can't wait to see what happens with the bulbs this winter.
j-bird
Well-Known Member
Native - I almost gave up as well. I noticed the deer have taken to the radish more so than the turnips. At first I didn't plant radish at all, but I read some place that the deer seem to take to the radish better than the turnips. I don't see much if any use of the tuber. I have began to see some limited use of the radish and some "carry over" to the turnip as well with time. I think it simply takes the deer time to figure the new plants out. I plant the brassica as insurance and diversity and have no intention of carrying my deer on them alone. They are not prefer in my area, not buy a long shot, but they will eat them some now. I like to plant my fall annuals as a mix and any use of the brassica is simply a bonus.
The deer around my place hit the turnips the first year I planted them, but like most folks have experienced, they don't start on them until a couple of good freezes have hit. Last year was the first year I tried radishes. The deer hit them early and often, like someone else mentioned earlier the deer kept them pretty well grazed to the ground through the winter, so they didn't put on much for tubers. Had an awesome stand of turnips, but only got one so-so freeze late November, then a bunch of rain. Deer didn't seem to touch the turnips last year (although didn't have a cage, so they were probably grazing a little). Also had an AMAZING overabundance of acorns, so the deer were feeding on them until green up this spring. Still, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend brassicas in general and turnips specifically to anyone that asks me about winter foodplots. I would think that after starting to hit the radishes that your deer would be more likely to take to the turnips, but I would also question whether there was a need. It sounds like your deer aren't limited by food at the moment, so if you're planting just because "everyone else is", I'd just stick with what's working for you and not worry about it. If you're trying to come up with some alternatives for a rotation I'd say put the turnips and radish together in a mix and go with it.
Thought I had some better pics (particularly was thinking I had a daylight pic of a deer with a turnip stuffed in its mouth), but short search didn't come up with it. This one shows the bulbs they've pulled/pawed up (all the white dots in the photo are not rocks, those are the bulbs)
And this one is a nighttime shot of one with a turnip in her mouth (got a few of the ragged leaves left on it hanging out the side).
Thought I had some better pics (particularly was thinking I had a daylight pic of a deer with a turnip stuffed in its mouth), but short search didn't come up with it. This one shows the bulbs they've pulled/pawed up (all the white dots in the photo are not rocks, those are the bulbs)
And this one is a nighttime shot of one with a turnip in her mouth (got a few of the ragged leaves left on it hanging out the side).
Native Hunter
Well-Known Member
Good discussion guys. Lots of great information here.
Historically, both domestic stock and wildlife had to produce and reproduce for mankind given only the resources available upon the landscape. Recently, modernization of agriculture placed new plants upon the landscape and soil amendments in an effort for man to better provide for the productivity of the animal. During the course of that transition, there were steep learning curves for both the animal and for mankind. Those learning curves have become what is called 'nutritional wisdom'....moreso for the animal than for the man...and often at the animal's expense!
Wild brassica and related plants are common to compacted soil and/or among overgrazed pasture plants....never seen them in a forest setting and rare in good rangeland. In some areas, it is likely deer haven't had the opportunity to use these plants in their diet and have no 'nutritional wisdom' of using brassica. So naturally when you plant a crop type brassica it may take years before deer develop the wisdom needed to include that plant in the diet....all depends on past related wild plants on offer. All plants contain both toxins and nutrients to whit the animal must learn to deal with!
Deer will figure out how to use the many plants you have on offer long before you will figure out how, when and why they use them. Such things are easier to figure out in lean times but less so in abundant times. Brassica (in moderation) do a good job of improving soil physical properties and enhancing soil nutrient recycling rate. That is far more important for health and growth of future plants or companion plants and long term soil quality, than if the animal uses the plant at all. WHEN YOU WANT the animal to use the plant may not be the time when the animal want's to use the plant. Having grown brassica in mixtures practically year around.....I can tell you that deer will use them at practically all stages of growth in varying degrees, but when they use them varies tremendously from year to year and I can't tell you why or when they will use them! Plants contain primary, secondary and tertiary chemical compounds which constitute what we call 'nutrients' and 'toxins'.....the animal is far superior in figuring out which of these compounds are needed in their diet and remedies for compounds from other plants....moreso than the modern science of animal selection and preference can figure out. If you don't believe that deer have evolved to deal with plant toxins, then the next time you open one up take a hard look at the liver in relation to body size....it is a huge % of body weight....and the liver is a detoxifying organ and an organ of metabolizing nutrients...feedback from the liver and other organs drives plant selection through chemical and neural signals received by the gray matter of the brain!
Related example to your sudden brassica use....I was sitting a stand recently overlooking a small mixed warm and cool season plot. A doe and fawn eased through and the doe was actively selecting the top 1/3rd of sorghums regrowth (could have been millet or EW or WGS or SS).....I thought that quite odd and texted deerpatch the observation. Earlier in the week, I eased through the destination area and it was swarming with bees and wasps....I looked around for flowers and there were none! The sorghums were exuding a sugary sap from the leaves and that is what multitudes of insects were feeding upon. Recent weather patterns may have increased the sugar content of sorghums leaf and that is why the deer were using them.....who knows? The point is that that a plant is rich in a compound at a time when use of that compound is favorable for deer and insect use.
When choosing seeds to plant in a food plot, opt for 1) seeds of plants which are needed to address the soil limitations you are dealing with, 2) seeds which increase biodiversity, and 3) seeds of plants which are know to have broad deer use (even if you don't see some of those plants used heavily). Just enjoy watching the animals use what you have provided and take note of novel observations! Remember one thing, nutritional wisdom of the animal is a book with very long history!
Wild brassica and related plants are common to compacted soil and/or among overgrazed pasture plants....never seen them in a forest setting and rare in good rangeland. In some areas, it is likely deer haven't had the opportunity to use these plants in their diet and have no 'nutritional wisdom' of using brassica. So naturally when you plant a crop type brassica it may take years before deer develop the wisdom needed to include that plant in the diet....all depends on past related wild plants on offer. All plants contain both toxins and nutrients to whit the animal must learn to deal with!
Deer will figure out how to use the many plants you have on offer long before you will figure out how, when and why they use them. Such things are easier to figure out in lean times but less so in abundant times. Brassica (in moderation) do a good job of improving soil physical properties and enhancing soil nutrient recycling rate. That is far more important for health and growth of future plants or companion plants and long term soil quality, than if the animal uses the plant at all. WHEN YOU WANT the animal to use the plant may not be the time when the animal want's to use the plant. Having grown brassica in mixtures practically year around.....I can tell you that deer will use them at practically all stages of growth in varying degrees, but when they use them varies tremendously from year to year and I can't tell you why or when they will use them! Plants contain primary, secondary and tertiary chemical compounds which constitute what we call 'nutrients' and 'toxins'.....the animal is far superior in figuring out which of these compounds are needed in their diet and remedies for compounds from other plants....moreso than the modern science of animal selection and preference can figure out. If you don't believe that deer have evolved to deal with plant toxins, then the next time you open one up take a hard look at the liver in relation to body size....it is a huge % of body weight....and the liver is a detoxifying organ and an organ of metabolizing nutrients...feedback from the liver and other organs drives plant selection through chemical and neural signals received by the gray matter of the brain!
Related example to your sudden brassica use....I was sitting a stand recently overlooking a small mixed warm and cool season plot. A doe and fawn eased through and the doe was actively selecting the top 1/3rd of sorghums regrowth (could have been millet or EW or WGS or SS).....I thought that quite odd and texted deerpatch the observation. Earlier in the week, I eased through the destination area and it was swarming with bees and wasps....I looked around for flowers and there were none! The sorghums were exuding a sugary sap from the leaves and that is what multitudes of insects were feeding upon. Recent weather patterns may have increased the sugar content of sorghums leaf and that is why the deer were using them.....who knows? The point is that that a plant is rich in a compound at a time when use of that compound is favorable for deer and insect use.
When choosing seeds to plant in a food plot, opt for 1) seeds of plants which are needed to address the soil limitations you are dealing with, 2) seeds which increase biodiversity, and 3) seeds of plants which are know to have broad deer use (even if you don't see some of those plants used heavily). Just enjoy watching the animals use what you have provided and take note of novel observations! Remember one thing, nutritional wisdom of the animal is a book with very long history!
George
Well-Known Member
I'm repeating myself now but this is still a good set of pictures to show radish utilization.
2014 was a typical year for growing 5 pound radishes.
By mid December the radish were frozen up and starting to rot down. I went away for Christmas to be with my Loved One in Michigan figuring late muzzleloader season was going to be a gime.
I returned to find every morsel of radish had been vacuumed up during the week I was gone.
G
2014 was a typical year for growing 5 pound radishes.
By mid December the radish were frozen up and starting to rot down. I went away for Christmas to be with my Loved One in Michigan figuring late muzzleloader season was going to be a gime.
I returned to find every morsel of radish had been vacuumed up during the week I was gone.
G
If the radish were at 5 lbs/ac in a mix with small grains and legumes.....radish might only get 3 lb weight.....but the last photo would show a field of green still producing when you returned. Quite honestly, I've never really understood rotating brassica and small grains when both can be grown well together....the exception might be if one had heavily compacted soil over rich subsoil and he wanted to get access to those nutrients/water faster by breaking the plow pan. And yes, some years you are not going to get the moisture when brassica needs it...but that affects a brassica only plot the same as a mixed plot IME. IF you are dry in Aug...chances are you won't have the subsoil moisture in Sept which plants planted then need for good fall growth in dry years. The radish taproot will chase moisture like no other plant I have seen.....as long as there is something to chase...if not they will sit dormant with 5 leaf until moisture is available!
It is really hard to beat small grains for staying power as a basal winter forage (cattle and wildlife)....the history of this goes back over 60 years in science....and there are A LOT of farmers now using 3-5 way small grain mixes with brassica and legumes. Sixty days of small grain growth for establishment after planting will allow the plant to recover through winter grazing and avoid lodging....about 6-10" height. With deer you kinda get that early deferment coincident with late summer forbs and drop of soft and hard mast...provided of course deer density is reasonable.
If you could just plant 1 mix year after year that will last for 9-10 months would this not be less hassle than a rotation?
It is really hard to beat small grains for staying power as a basal winter forage (cattle and wildlife)....the history of this goes back over 60 years in science....and there are A LOT of farmers now using 3-5 way small grain mixes with brassica and legumes. Sixty days of small grain growth for establishment after planting will allow the plant to recover through winter grazing and avoid lodging....about 6-10" height. With deer you kinda get that early deferment coincident with late summer forbs and drop of soft and hard mast...provided of course deer density is reasonable.
If you could just plant 1 mix year after year that will last for 9-10 months would this not be less hassle than a rotation?
George
Well-Known Member
When I mixed my seeds tonnage dropped, brassica greens and tubers. Plants being smaller and fewer were wiped out before 1st shotgun let alone late muzzleloader.
My ratio started leaning heavier on turnips in later years to have tubers in to late season.
The last picture shows a full planting of rye that was already chewed down in August and September waiting to reshow in March.
So I rotated, radish/brassica then rye, weeds, and clover, to maximize brassica tonnage when I needed it and have the feed and soil benefits from the other plants the rest of the year.
I greatly improved that soil using my rotation.
G
My ratio started leaning heavier on turnips in later years to have tubers in to late season.
The last picture shows a full planting of rye that was already chewed down in August and September waiting to reshow in March.
So I rotated, radish/brassica then rye, weeds, and clover, to maximize brassica tonnage when I needed it and have the feed and soil benefits from the other plants the rest of the year.
I greatly improved that soil using my rotation.
G
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CentralKyHunter
Active Member
I've got radishes in this year also but haven't checked them for a while.
I'm surprised the deer there don't utilize your turnips any.
Mine seem to get a lot of pressure in Jan & February when other food sources are scarce which is why I have stuck with them.
I have never tried Chicory but guess I need to. Rye was on my " to do" list this year but didn't make it. Changing things up a little next year, been experimenting the last few years and got some new ideas working .
Thanks for the continued info that your discussions bring !!
Turnip from mid Aug planting. I planted radishes @ same time so guess I will check them this week now !!
I'm surprised the deer there don't utilize your turnips any.
Mine seem to get a lot of pressure in Jan & February when other food sources are scarce which is why I have stuck with them.
I have never tried Chicory but guess I need to. Rye was on my " to do" list this year but didn't make it. Changing things up a little next year, been experimenting the last few years and got some new ideas working .
Thanks for the continued info that your discussions bring !!
Turnip from mid Aug planting. I planted radishes @ same time so guess I will check them this week now !!
DocHolladay
Well-Known Member
Planted approx 3 acres mid Sept. 1/2 brassica mix(rape, ptt, daikon), 1/2 ww, oats, winter peas. Have had 1/2" of rain since I planted. Just about everything has sprouted to about 2-3" and stopped. Was supposed to get rain yesterday, but that was a wash out(no pun).
George
Well-Known Member
It wasn't my intention to paint a bleak picture above but rather to show how well my radish patch was utilized by deer. With all of the tons of food they cleaned up in that week it was a prosperous Christmas for the deer.
That year was a relatively prosperous year for me too as a deer hunter, Halloweenie buck killed in the brassica patch.
Photo taken 11/6/2014. I found no planting that fed deer more tons of greens. My deer devoured my plantings during the dry periods of late summer and the plantings, particularly radish rebounded and kept producing tons.
11/20/2014. Produced tons and kept producing even after it froze.
That was also the year that I passed on this guy all season because he had a broken tine.
until I decided that he was my deer to kill in 2nd shotgun and you can see where he dropped in his tracks.
Every deer that I killed in Iowa I killed in one of my brassica plots.
So ya I planted one mix of brassicas yearly, the rye and weeds planted themselves and I never saw frost seeding some clover as much of a hassle.
So I think that I can make a pretty good argument for planting brassica as a stand alone crop. Keeping in mind that I either planted them with rye or the rye seeded itself. The rye never competed much with the brassica because it sprouted and disappeared till the following March.
I had turnips lasting till March and rye and clover resuming growth in March and April, practically year around food.
G
That year was a relatively prosperous year for me too as a deer hunter, Halloweenie buck killed in the brassica patch.
Photo taken 11/6/2014. I found no planting that fed deer more tons of greens. My deer devoured my plantings during the dry periods of late summer and the plantings, particularly radish rebounded and kept producing tons.
11/20/2014. Produced tons and kept producing even after it froze.
That was also the year that I passed on this guy all season because he had a broken tine.
until I decided that he was my deer to kill in 2nd shotgun and you can see where he dropped in his tracks.
Every deer that I killed in Iowa I killed in one of my brassica plots.
So ya I planted one mix of brassicas yearly, the rye and weeds planted themselves and I never saw frost seeding some clover as much of a hassle.
So I think that I can make a pretty good argument for planting brassica as a stand alone crop. Keeping in mind that I either planted them with rye or the rye seeded itself. The rye never competed much with the brassica because it sprouted and disappeared till the following March.
I had turnips lasting till March and rye and clover resuming growth in March and April, practically year around food.
G
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Elkaddict
Well-Known Member
Dgallow, do you think the addition of grains reduces the need to rotate away from brassicas every two years for pest/disease control?
George
Well-Known Member
I planted brassica to rye, weed, clover rotation on that particular plot for 10 years straight with no pest/disease issue.
G
The Famous Grouse
Member
I don't know if this is scientific of not, but I had trouble with the deer on my property eating radish and turnip and I saw it suggested on some forum that smell plays a big part so the idea was to walk around the plot and pull one or two radish or turnip every 20 feet and lay them on the ground and stomp the crap out of them. Just mash them up so all that juice and pulp produces scent.
Deer are very, very good at smelling everything including food.
I tied this and it seemed to work that very same year. Suddenly browsing seemed to pick up on a plot that had just been left alone. Again, don't know if this is coincidence maybe, but it's free to try it.
Grouse
Deer are very, very good at smelling everything including food.
I tied this and it seemed to work that very same year. Suddenly browsing seemed to pick up on a plot that had just been left alone. Again, don't know if this is coincidence maybe, but it's free to try it.
Grouse
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