J-birds place

[j-bird]

What bullet are you shooting in the 30-30? I know options are limited for tube magazines, but if you don't mind a '2 shooter' then have someone hand-load you some 150 gr Nozler partitions.

I was simply using factory remmington ammo - wal-mart special stuff I had. It was some round nosed, soft point semi-jacketed bullet. I also have had it suggested to look into Hornady as they have a plastic tipped bullet as well. I just like blowing a big hole in the critter - makes finding them a lot easier.

 

[OkieKubota]

Hornady Lever-evolution 160 grain rounds from Hornady look pretty nice and I have shot a few at targets out of my 30/30 but when ammo became scarce and it was impossible to find a few years ago I went back to the 150 grain Remington Corelokt due to availability and the fact I have had no issues in the many years I have used them on game. I have also went back to hunting with a Marlin 336 30/30 from my Bolt Action 30/06. I was switching rifles almost daily in season but have decided since I hunt really short range deer in the woods exclusively and the Marlin packs so easy and is compact that I would just stick with that gun.

My first ever deer rifle was a Marlin 336 with a 3 x 9 Bushnell Sportview scope with see under mounts and I killed a bunch of deer with it. Somewhere along the way I started reading a bunch of deer mags that touted bolt rifles with more powerful cartridges and I decided I needed one...Now a little over 30 years later I am back to the Marlin 336 30/30, 3 x 9 Bushnell, and see under mounts...feels like home...

 

[j-bird]

Hornady Lever-evolution 160 grain rounds from Hornady look pretty nice and I have shot a few at targets out of my 30/30 but when ammo became scarce and it was impossible to find a few years ago I went back to the 150 grain Remington Corelokt due to availability and the fact I have had no issues in the many years I have used them on game. I have also went back to hunting with a Marlin 336 30/30 from my Bolt Action 30/06. I was switching rifles almost daily in season but have decided since I hunt really short range deer in the woods exclusively and the Marlin packs so easy and is compact that I would just stick with that gun.

My first ever deer rifle was a Marlin 336 with a 3 x 9 Bushnell Sportview scope with see under mounts and I killed a bunch of deer with it. Somewhere along the way I started reading a bunch of deer mags that touted bolt rifles with more powerful cartridges and I decided I needed one...Now a little over 30 years later I am back to the Marlin 336 30/30, 3 x 9 Bushnell, and see under mounts...feels like home...

Lots of folks seem to like a lever 30-30 in the woods. This was my first year with it and I liked it in the stand and blind. Sure it isn't a 200 yard deer killing machine, but it handles well in it's compact design and doesn't beat the crap out of the shooter. If I can find a bullet that will expand a bit better I would be thrilled, but if not it has done a fine job as it is. Just looking to improve if I can.

 

[j-bird]

Just had an "AaHa" moment thanks to some folks over on HT. The discussion spun into one of how we teach our kids about hunting and Tap recommended an article as I had posted a very similar post prior about the process I went thru with my son.

www.brothersofthebow.com/tooyoung.htm

It then dawned on me that I had not gone thru this with my daughter and that it may be why we had some issues earlier this season with target panic. It drove home the point that I need to stop and go back and do it the right way. I feel pretty stupid for not seeing this earlier, but we all make mistakes. I hope to learn from this mistake and put my daughter on the same path that has worked before. She wanted to deer hunt and I was so excited about that we skipped most of the "training" and looking back that is a VERY important of the whole picture. I have done what I have swore I would never do with someone else. I set her up to succeed without really putting the effort or understanding into it. I want to raise a "hunter" not a "killer".

 

[j-bird]

At the suggestion of another forum member I decided to physically write a letter - I know right, what's that! I have contacted various levels of my state DNR in the past, but mostly thru e-mail and I am not sure just what impact that has or if they even read it. I figure at least a letter will land on their desk and maybe curiosity will get the better of them and they will at least read it. The letter is below. I am sending it to my State Deer Biologist, the regional wildlife biologist and the area wildlife biologist as well. For some background IN (like many states) has been in a deer reduction mode for some time. The DNR has added additional antlerless season, increased weapons choices and increased the allowable level of antlerless harvest across nearly the entire state. Couple that with 2 outbreaks of EHD and record level harvests and we have certainly sent the deer population into decline...... However since we have seen a steady decline in the harvest numbers the message and more importantly actions, from our DNR remain the same....."Kill more deer".


I am not sure if I will receive any sort of reply, but I hope so. I fail to understand how the DNR claims to "manage" deer based on reactionary data like harvest. They don't estimate even a state wide deer population and they sure don;t seem to know what they wan't that population to be, just "lower". Well sooner or later with that sort of mentality your going to hit bottom. My specific area seems to be steady in it's population, but that doesn't mean I am willing to ignore the issue on a state wide basis.

 

[stevenk03]

Very well said j-bird hope they get your point, and take it under consideration.

 

[stevenk03]

Here in jasper county the bonus doe is 8 , I have not seen a fraction of deer I did years back.

 

[j-bird]

Here in jasper county the bonus doe is 8 , I have not seen a fraction of deer I did years back.

Hey Steven - glad to see you stuck around. I saw your post about the buck in your avatar and saw you where pretty new and hoped you would stick around. I also gave you some smack, but that was all in good fun.

My place has never had a ton of deer, but that is my "norm". I know many across our state are seeing far fewer deer and although that was the intent, my fear is that the DNR lacks a plan to know when enough is enough. Other than collecting harvest data and the reports that come to them like crop damage and deer/vehicle accidents I don't think they really know. I don't understand how you manage something without knowing how much of it you have and how much of it you want to have. I think some areas really needed reduced as well, but 2 rounds of EHD and record level harvests put a BIG dent in that, yet the DNR continues to push to kill more deer.

I have no idea if a physical letter will amount to anything, but so far the DNR doesn't appear to be willing to listen. I figured I would try another route and see if that matters. Not that any one letter will matter, but it beats just sitting around and complaining about it.

 

[SoInHunter]

I hunt in south central Indiana and this year i have also noticed a definite decrease in the deer population. The population needed to be reduced from where it was 5 years ago, but I think we have went too far, too fast. A lot of people blame the DNR but they were not pulling the trigger. Hunters need to asses the area they hunt and make an educated decision on whether they harvest antlerless deer or not. This is the first year in the 8 years that i have hunted my main property that i have not harvested at least 4 doe. This year i harvested zero, due to the drastic decline. Last year on the last morning i hunted i saw 23 antlerless deer. This year the most i saw from stand in one sit was 6. Dramatic decrease.

 

[OkieKubota]

jbird I am kind of confused... I think in this very thread you killed 3 antlerless and a buck this year off your place yourself and not sure if your daughter took any or not but I know where we are at (Whitetail Hollow 80, Home 10 - 25 acres, or 1500 acre deer lease) adults kill no antlerless deer (buttons or does) because the numbers are just not there. We have the ability to kill either 2 bucks (both can be archery or 1 each by rifle and muzzleloader or 1 archery and 1 with a gun of some sort) and 4 does or we can kill 1 buck and 5 does or we can kill 6 does and THEN we have another frigging rifle season for Antlerless for 10 days starting the 16th of this month! I have seen bucks shed off by then in some instances and some big old bucks have fallen legally and illegally during this time.

I guess bottom line is if the numbers are down it takes hunter restraint. I killed 1 buck this year and wounded a second. Not proud of it but I did everything humanly possible to recover and the consensus was that the deer lived through the initial and would either die at the hands of another hunter during that rifle season or would either get well or die from infection at a later date. My wife killed no deer and my grandson who is 11 hasn't gotten a deer yet. There is a possibility we will have a doe and a buck on the ground this year out of tags for 16 deer we have.

I too am very concerned about our deer herd and you have seen my oak regen on our place so there is no way we are anywhere near overpopulated so antlerless will get a pass other than the occasional one for the grandkids until our state decides to stop some of this "kill em all" madness!

 

[j-bird]

jbird I am kind of confused... I think in this very thread you killed 3 antlerless and a buck this year off your place yourself and not sure if your daughter took any or not but I know where we are at (Whitetail Hollow 80, Home 10 - 25 acres, or 1500 acre deer lease) adults kill no antlerless deer (buttons or does) because the numbers are just not there. We have the ability to kill either 2 bucks (both can be archery or 1 each by rifle and muzzleloader or 1 archery and 1 with a gun of some sort) and 4 does or we can kill 1 buck and 5 does or we can kill 6 does and THEN we have another frigging rifle season for Antlerless for 10 days starting the 16th of this month! I have seen bucks shed off by then in some instances and some big old bucks have fallen legally and illegally during this time.

I guess bottom line is if the numbers are down it takes hunter restraint. I killed 1 buck this year and wounded a second. Not proud of it but I did everything humanly possible to recover and the consensus was that the deer lived through the initial and would either die at the hands of another hunter during that rifle season or would either get well or die from infection at a later date. My wife killed no deer and my grandson who is 11 hasn't gotten a deer yet. There is a possibility we will have a doe and a buck on the ground this year out of tags for 16 deer we have.

I too am very concerned about our deer herd and you have seen my oak regen on our place so there is no way we are anywhere near overpopulated so antlerless will get a pass other than the occasional one for the grandkids until our state decides to stop some of this "kill em all" madness!

Okie - I think I see what your saying and I will agree that I seem to be a bigot by killing 4 deer myself and then complaining about deer numbers. It's OK - I'm a big boy. Please understand I have data back to 2010 that shows I can harvest 5 to 6 deer a year off my property and not adversely affect deer numbers or the next years hunting. So the deer taken off my property is even below that "norm". My county has very little deer habitat and thus numbers are low, but my little slice is in a better than average area. My county struggles to harvest 2 deer in a square mile on average. I am not concerned about the deer numbers at my place specifically. My areas deer numbers are naturally low and many hunters don't even hunt here because there are "greener pastures" elsewhere. Not that it makes a difference, but of the 3 antlerless deer I took only one was female, so I really did not harm the reproductive capacity of the deer in my local area much at all.

I am concerned about deer numbers across my state and about the lack of true data driven management regarding the resource. Statewide harvest levels are currently the same as they where in 2004, but back then the harvest was increasing. That isn't happening now - harvest numbers are decreasing as a result of a decreasing herd. How far does the DNR want to go? They won't tell us - I don't think they know. All we see and hear is "kill more deer" from our DNR. I am not waiting for this issue of low deer numbers to show up at my porch step. I am trying to be proactive before it reaches me. My state needs to manage deer and not monitor them in my opinion regardless of the herd level, however declining harvests and declining herd numbers is bringing this even more so to the forefront. That lack of data and the lack of a plan are the most concerning. Where are we at?, where do we want to go?, how are we going to get there?, and how do we monitor our progress along the way? That is management. That is want I want to see. My DNR claims they manage deer on a county basis - yet we lack data at a statewide level - so there is no way they have that data on a county level, so again, how is that management?

 

[j-bird]

Was in the process of replying to a post on another site and found myself on a tangent, but thought I would share.

I see lots of folks worried about how to maximize their dollar. These are folks with great intentions and I was there once myself. Limited budgets, limited time or limited resources in general, but still a desire to improve the land they hunt. I still have those limitations, they just are not as bad as they once where.

In my younger days (Not that I'm old - I'm in my early 40's) I was light on money but heavy on time and will power......at least I thought. Well, those first few years where depressing. I would scrap together a weak budget, bust my butt with inadequate tools and essentially force my way thru to plant my tree or food plot only to watch it struggle or even die. Not only did I not consider the ongoing costs of the project but I also simply was spread too thin. Plots need sprayed or mowed and trees need pruned, watered and protected. When it came right down to it - I didn't have it in me to keep up. I would spend year after year trying to recover from the previous failures. Only once I realized that I needed to take the time and effort to do it right the first time did it "click". Sure I didn't get done near the amount of work I wanted to get done. I was wanting to change the world over night just like many other before me had tried - I was focused on the destination and not the journey. But doing it right the first time I saw success. That tree lived or that plot actually became something. Now sure over time I made other mistakes along the way but I realized that - news flash here - Rome wasn't built in a day! So I slowly grew to more equipment, better tools, deeper pockets and sometimes even more time. Now I still don;t have enough of any of those things, but I have more than I had!

We all face limitations, and those limitations may change over time. How we work within those limitations is where we can find the reward of our efforts. Keep projects manageable. I know that sucks...but it's true. Can I truly take care of more plot acres - the costs and maintaining them? Can I truly afford to protect 100 trees I intend on planting? Do we have the time, money, equipment and the like to really see these projects thru without adversely affecting something else I care about?

With deer season coming to an end in many areas the focus will quickly turn to this years project list. I have a long list just like I am certain many of you do as well. However I try to keep them at least in manageable portion sizes. I have come to terms with the fact that I will more than likely never be "done". But unlike before, I am enjoying the journey.......even if the destination is never reached.......that may be a good thing.....because then what would I do? Work within your limitations and ENJOY it, if you don't you will only lead yourself to frustration. This is a hobby.....not a job!

 

[catscratch]

^^^ spot on j-bird!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[dgallow]

The DNRs job is to manage herds on a regional or state level....and to keep cash flow via license and tag sales...to a lesser degree encourage seasonal income for small communities via hunter expenses. There is slim chance state regulations fit each property as the DNR also manages a larger human sector than most property managers..

Deer, however, have localized populations and their productivity dependent upon both density and habitat quality at home range scale. So, it should be the duty of each property manager to set harvest quotas both for antlered and antlerless for his property based upon animal metrics, inside constrains set by the DNA. Deer body condition over the year is the true reflection of proper stocking rate. Body condition will slide long before other byproducts of overstocking manifest (eg uneven twin size, low fawning rates, reduced doe body size, reduced antler mass, reduced buck numbers/age, reduced ability to realiment after rut etc). Ability to maintain body condition should be the primary focus of management along with a sustainable fawning rate to keep herd balance.

EHD and the like may in some cases hold true to the laws of over population, but in the vast majority of cases are due to limited numbers of quality watering sites or other communal center issues at landscape scale. Nonetheless, reduced numbers, regardless of how they occur, are an opportunity to bring habitat quality and carrying capacity above what a future increased density can utilize. Use the opportunity to your advantage!

For most of us the $$ budget is set and the available man hours of labor fixed, so how best to exhaust those resources?....intensive management of a few acres?.....or extensive management of the majority of acres?....which will benefit body condition of your herd the most?....which encourage sustainable fawning rate?

 

[j-bird]

I'm not saying a reduced deer population is bad. What I am saying is not having a PLAN or collecting/having DATA is BAD!

My DNR has no published PLAN
MY DNR has no idea how many deer we have
MY DNR has no idea how many deer they want to have

The DNR is entrusted to manage the natural resources because the scope and scale to do so on a sustainable basis exceeds the mean of the individual citizen. The individual and group of individuals can impact very localized areas, but simply lack the means to do so on a grander scale.

I will agree that some of the blame lands on hunters.....however, the lack of true management of the resource by the DNR is NOT to be overlooked as well. IF the average hunter was so easy to convince of their impact collectively we would all have foodplots and have B&C bucks on the wall......and you sure don't see that either! IF hunters where so "in tune" with their habitat we wouldn't need the DNR.......and history shows just how well that worked out!

 

[dgallow]

On pins and needles while the kids are in surgery.....deals like this bother my heart deeply....bringing forth memories I would have rather not lived first hand.

To pass time I picked up Walt Davis' book, How not to go broke ranching".....and went to the marked page of my second over reading. You would enjoy this read, jbird!

I believe this quote sums up my thoughts on this topic, "True husbandry of the environment is much more likely to occur with a free people protecting their own well-being and that of their descendants than at the hands of a politically motivated bureaucracy."

I am officially a grandpa!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[George]

Congratulations Gramps.

G

 

[Fish]

Can i sign your letter, Jbird?
With some habitat projects coming along, i saw more antlerless deer this year than past years. But with 40 acres surrounded by national forest, i let them walk. I agree that hunters are pulling the trigger and ultimately are responsible. But when the majority of hunters take to the woods for two weeks in gun season, they hardly have wise deer management on their minds. Its brown and down. Cant eat them? Kill and donate the meat because it's fun.
I havent killed a doe in many years simply because i dont see enough.

Ive mentioned this to jbird before, but there is a laundry list of state properties where bonus antlerless tags cannot be filled. Why? Because they have killed the piss out of their deer. What do they think is going on elsewhere?
I too, would like to know the "plan“.

 

[j-bird]

On pins and needles while the kids are in surgery.....deals like this bother my heart deeply....bringing forth memories I would have rather not lived first hand.

To pass time I picked up Walt Davis' book, How not to go broke ranching".....and went to the marked page of my second over reading. You would enjoy this read, jbird!

I believe this quote sums up my thoughts on this topic, "True husbandry of the environment is much more likely to occur with a free people protecting their own well-being and that of their descendants than at the hands of a politically motivated bureaucracy."

I am officially a grandpa!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope all goes well for you. I have had my own children have to go thru various surgeries and it's no fun. Grandpa......Wow, now you get to spoil them rotten and then send them home! Congrats!

As for your quote - I agree, however, widespread stewardship I personally think is a pipe-dream. When you can find those special people in close proximity you can have a localized impact.....however those are special people that not many of us have the luxury to have as our neighbors. The thing about freedom is that I can choose to do what I want and so can my neighbor, and because of that we may have totally different desires and priorities. I have no issue promoting stewardship of the land, however it's difficult to sell.

 

[j-bird]

Can i sign your letter, Jbird?
With some habitat projects coming along, i saw more antlerless deer this year than past years. But with 40 acres surrounded by national forest, i let them walk. I agree that hunters are pulling the trigger and ultimately are responsible. But when the majority of hunters take to the woods for two weeks in gun season, they hardly have wise deer management on their minds. Its brown and down. Cant eat them? Kill and donate the meat because it's fun.
I havent killed a doe in many years simply because i dont see enough.

Ive mentioned this to jbird before, but there is a laundry list of state properties where bonus antlerless tags cannot be filled. Why? Because they have killed the piss out of their deer. What do they think is going on elsewhere?
I too, would like to know the "plan“.

You don't need to sign mine.....copy it and send it yourself! Use it as a template or whatever - you are not going to step on my toes.