catscratch
Well-Known Member
Good supply of young bucks running around (and yotes too). We haven't had a cold snap yet. He'll be hurting when this front hits Wednesday.
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
House and Habitat build thread:
- Thread starter catscratch
- Start date
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
catscratch
Well-Known Member
We started seeing mange in the late 80's... when the bleeding hearts stopped wearing fur and started throwing red paint on people who did. Pelt prices dropped and predator populations exploded. Since then mangy yotes have been common. I shoot them when I get a chance, just because I think freezing to death would kind of suck. I don't mind too much if their whole den dies though...
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Turkey Creek
Well-Known Member
You would be surprised at how hardy those yotes are. I have seen coyotes worse than that one in February after lots of bitterly cold weather. Usually here they will burrow into hay stacks or be found in barns trying to keep warm.
Kinda makes you wonder what our ancestors thought and talked about many centuries ago when first arriving in North America....."Ahh gee, Clarkie, there are way too many predators on this new land...the Spanish were right!"......"Lew....dude, you realize how much money our govt can make off this fur?"...."Janey, can I have another drag off that peace pipe?" Yet, the early explorer accounting of bison, elk and deer herds were well in number above current herd size....before...well before...expansion of the fur industry! The fur industry was born to pave new venues of white man....it wasn't created to repair predator/prey imbalances! The camp-fire talk behind the edited formal writing of explores would have been hilarious! Dude....you better rephrase that for the king or he'll have your head!
Yep....we gotta manage things...right?
Well before that exploration....settlers had brought cattle of Indian and Mexican origin into the US plains.....gray wolves which followed bison herds, soon found imported naïve cattle an easy meal. Predation losses...combined with collapse of the Spanish export beef market in the SW US forced imported cattle to become abandoned and then 'feral' in the brush country of south Tejas as their herders returned for more prosperous endeavors (thanks to American Indians for stealing their horses, other items of value, and taking the occasional scalp) south of the border. South Tejas, BTW is OUTSIDE the historical range of the gray wolf (coincidence?). It should be of no surprise then to you...that Canis latrans, aka coyote was historically labeled 'prairie wolf' or 'cased wolf' by the white man...and I suspect back then viewed just as dastardly as the true wolf, thus the wolf nick-names! These feral cattle.....would become the only true US 'adapted breed'.....aka longhorn cattle....fat feral individuals rounded up in recent history, driven along historic trails, and slaughtered in the eastern beef market...thus creating the American Cowboy Legend'!
So....is it any surprise that many brain-washed modern Americans view coyote as a 'enemy of the herd'? Despite the fact that most of the longhorn adaptation phase would be centered around coyote as top predator? Extincted cattle....not hardly.....adapted individuals and growing new breed...yes!
Yes, I have listened to the 'justifications?' for two solid weeks now....'we aren't seeing any big deer because there are too many coyote'....'coyote were all around me last night and I got scared'.....'rifle season is over, let coyote season begin'.....'first bobcat I ever saw was on your ranch and if you weren't at the barn today, I'da window shopped his arse!'....okay, the last part I didn't hear but can read minds pretty well! Nary a thought is ever given to the 100s of does available for service within arm's reach of mature buck's home range (because of our own stubbornness to thin the doe herd) before he would need to return to your land and service your does there (that is if he isn't rutted out first!)....and trying to do this while dealing with the stress your 'camp-life' has brought upon his secure homeland?
The main writing which comes to mind after hearing such predator gibberish is 'Diary of a Serial Killer (Retired)', by Walt Davis....and one of his prophetic phrases in other writings......'great care and understanding should be taken by those whose job is to dole out death on a regular basis', paraphrased.
To just sit and watch the normal interaction of prey, predator, omnivore, and scavenger is to live a life of understanding and develop trust in the natural model! It is an opportunity to try and understand something well beyond our wisdom and year! The first time you ride upon a prairie wolf pup, deceased from malnourishment and starvation, then you will have a moment of sorrow and soon realize the animal doesn't need much help in the management department....it faces many challenges on a daily basis if left alone! Natural checks and balances, sometimes appearing cruel to our eye, are more than able to correct situations and imbalances we feel compelled to undertake! Very few times in my life, have I ever seen a true stock killer.....but I meet new assassins of supposed stock killers on a weekly basis....Diaries of Serial Killers?....still many authors and chapters out there!
+
Yep....we gotta manage things...right?
Well before that exploration....settlers had brought cattle of Indian and Mexican origin into the US plains.....gray wolves which followed bison herds, soon found imported naïve cattle an easy meal. Predation losses...combined with collapse of the Spanish export beef market in the SW US forced imported cattle to become abandoned and then 'feral' in the brush country of south Tejas as their herders returned for more prosperous endeavors (thanks to American Indians for stealing their horses, other items of value, and taking the occasional scalp) south of the border. South Tejas, BTW is OUTSIDE the historical range of the gray wolf (coincidence?). It should be of no surprise then to you...that Canis latrans, aka coyote was historically labeled 'prairie wolf' or 'cased wolf' by the white man...and I suspect back then viewed just as dastardly as the true wolf, thus the wolf nick-names! These feral cattle.....would become the only true US 'adapted breed'.....aka longhorn cattle....fat feral individuals rounded up in recent history, driven along historic trails, and slaughtered in the eastern beef market...thus creating the American Cowboy Legend'!
So....is it any surprise that many brain-washed modern Americans view coyote as a 'enemy of the herd'? Despite the fact that most of the longhorn adaptation phase would be centered around coyote as top predator? Extincted cattle....not hardly.....adapted individuals and growing new breed...yes!
Yes, I have listened to the 'justifications?' for two solid weeks now....'we aren't seeing any big deer because there are too many coyote'....'coyote were all around me last night and I got scared'.....'rifle season is over, let coyote season begin'.....'first bobcat I ever saw was on your ranch and if you weren't at the barn today, I'da window shopped his arse!'....okay, the last part I didn't hear but can read minds pretty well! Nary a thought is ever given to the 100s of does available for service within arm's reach of mature buck's home range (because of our own stubbornness to thin the doe herd) before he would need to return to your land and service your does there (that is if he isn't rutted out first!)....and trying to do this while dealing with the stress your 'camp-life' has brought upon his secure homeland?
The main writing which comes to mind after hearing such predator gibberish is 'Diary of a Serial Killer (Retired)', by Walt Davis....and one of his prophetic phrases in other writings......'great care and understanding should be taken by those whose job is to dole out death on a regular basis', paraphrased.
To just sit and watch the normal interaction of prey, predator, omnivore, and scavenger is to live a life of understanding and develop trust in the natural model! It is an opportunity to try and understand something well beyond our wisdom and year! The first time you ride upon a prairie wolf pup, deceased from malnourishment and starvation, then you will have a moment of sorrow and soon realize the animal doesn't need much help in the management department....it faces many challenges on a daily basis if left alone! Natural checks and balances, sometimes appearing cruel to our eye, are more than able to correct situations and imbalances we feel compelled to undertake! Very few times in my life, have I ever seen a true stock killer.....but I meet new assassins of supposed stock killers on a weekly basis....Diaries of Serial Killers?....still many authors and chapters out there!
+
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Dang, D, did you cross over to the dark side of dogghr, the predator advocate??? Better watch that blasphemy. I'll be starting such a thread after first of year for entertainment.
BTW, Cat,not to derail an excellent thread, I forgot to give you kudos on that work you do on your house. Quite impressive. I like your talent.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
D, I never gave much effort in trying to controlling coyote populations as I always figured there would end up being a natural balance (predator/prey cycles up and down in relation to each other, disease, etc...). Plus I doubt I would ever be effective enough at killing them to hurt a coyote population. But, I don't live in wolf country either and I've heard they can devastate prey populations in quick manner. My experience with predators has never been negative like that. We currently have a lower deer population than in the hey-day of the 80's but I've found very little evidence that it is due to the yotes.
I want to digress to coons. I know someone (closely) who has trapped hundreds of coons in the last couple of yrs. Their quail populations has rebounded well. How do you feel about controlling raccoons? I see them a little differently than yotes...
I want to digress to coons. I know someone (closely) who has trapped hundreds of coons in the last couple of yrs. Their quail populations has rebounded well. How do you feel about controlling raccoons? I see them a little differently than yotes...
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Lol, thanks for the compliment but it's a long ways from talent and the derail is awesome discussion. I'm just trying to build things (quite unsuccessfully) that I imagine when I look at the basement spaces. I really just need to get it done so that I can get outside a little more!
Ohh....the little masked guys....baby grizzly....tea cup version of the black bear....nuisance!
Enhance tree mast for deer and they too respond!
Trapping them? Kinda like cleaning hair from a shower drain....more comes back real soon! But it is fun trap and makes sense!
IMO.....best ace for ground nesters is 3 good rainfall years back to back during nesting/brooding!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Enhance tree mast for deer and they too respond!
Trapping them? Kinda like cleaning hair from a shower drain....more comes back real soon! But it is fun trap and makes sense!
IMO.....best ace for ground nesters is 3 good rainfall years back to back during nesting/brooding!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Do you know a good rain dance? Had a good start to those 3 yrs back to back of rain this yr, but three in a row seems to be pushing it!
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
You've had like 1.5-2x normal rain this year and asking me for a dance?...I need to be asking you! Lol
That is what quail biologist claim for our area.
Saw a covey from the stand late Oct.....don't know how many....they were skittish.
More quail when there were more cattle and folks didn't spay weeds often. Think over rest of pasture plays a role in low #s.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That is what quail biologist claim for our area.
Saw a covey from the stand late Oct.....don't know how many....they were skittish.
More quail when there were more cattle and folks didn't spay weeds often. Think over rest of pasture plays a role in low #s.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Well, you did say 3 yrs... We were in the red part of the drought map many times over the last 4 yrs, I'll never complain about extra rain.
I've thought the same about farming and ranching. Equipment and sprays are so efficient that there are few weeds in fields and little grain dropped after harvest. When there are weeds it's usually a single crop and only useful for a short period of time.
What's your view on prairie chickens? We have a small flock that use our place but the large huntable numbers are long gone. Thoughts on their lack of numbers?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
I've thought the same about farming and ranching. Equipment and sprays are so efficient that there are few weeds in fields and little grain dropped after harvest. When there are weeds it's usually a single crop and only useful for a short period of time.
What's your view on prairie chickens? We have a small flock that use our place but the large huntable numbers are long gone. Thoughts on their lack of numbers?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
I our area I think alot of game bird issue is from more hawks and nest predators.Grant Woods claims that even a large boar coon will kill a fawn and some of the latest studies show 50% fawn kill from coyotes.You will never exterminate coyotes but I darn sure want to keep them thinned out along with coons
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I heard of the hawk theory before. People use to shoot them at will, now there are a ton of them. Opossums and skunks probably contribute too.
Buckdeer1 did I see that you were once an elk guide?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Buckdeer1 did I see that you were once an elk guide?
Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Turkey Creek
Well-Known Member
Road to road farming and almost no milo planted here anymore are the 2 biggest factors affecting our pheasant and quail numbers. What little cover that remains is easily hunted for nests by all types of predators during nesting season. Our prairie chicken numbers are stable to maybe slightly increasing.
I have flushed coveys and had hawks dive into them and knock down quail while brush hogging.Another is the times of year that pasture burns are done now.yes i guided for an outfitter out of Fruita CO and my buddy guided for a guy just a few miles away.It sure takes the fun out of hunting.I have harvested a couple bulls with my bow and we usually try to do a DIY hunt out west every year or so,We have done elk,mule deer,antelope,in a couple states and I moose hunted in CO and WY
Just type NRCS and LPC into Google...there are many CSP and EQIP job sheets addressing LPC decline....that info will give you a synopsis of the issues considered important for their numbers to return. It boils down to decreased land fragmentation, wildlife friendly fencing, and boom/bust style range management. Essentially you create edge....edge of long recovery range adjacent to early successional range habitat.....it is critical to have nesting habitat ( long recovery) adjacent to brooding habitat (early succession) to increase bird numbers. That edge definition held true in AFGC (AR game and fish) wild turkey nesting surveys...the highest density of turkey nests occurred on the edge of 3-4 yr recovery from fire adjacent to a current prescribed burn unit. Planned time control grazing can be used to create the same edge in prairies simply by skipping a paddock to create the edge in a rotational system or by using patch burn/grazing under set stocking to create the edge. Once the habitat is correct for nesting success, then you must have the correct weather pattern several years in a row in order for the population to increase. You will always have predators....and should always have predators....and their numbers should ebb and flow. But, the question most often NOT asked is 'do you have alternate prey species to take the brunt of predation loss in relation to the prey species you are trying to encourage? For example, do you have the enough brush and bramble or other short thick cover to promote rodents (rats, rabbits, mice etc)?....if so hawks and coyote will stay busy enough.....if not, then ground birds and other wildlife become primary prey! Like anything else you are trying to manage.....the ecosystem must be evaluated as a whole comprised of several key parts!
Coons and coyotes are omnivores, correct? So that means their diet can be diverse and changes as food availability changes, correct?
Your synopsis suggests that every property managed for deer/turkey benefits from 100% fawn crops or 80% nesting success. I will ask two questions. Is it to the benefit of every property to have 100% success of wildlife reproduction? What are the ramifications of 100% reproductive success every year?
Wood's property is a prime example of my point. I am a long time friend of Grant and watched that property develop over many years...from under stocked to over stocked. IT is a property for 'family hunting use'.....just like many members here. They are at the point where deer numbers have exceeded carrying capacity.....plot growth cannot keep up with deer forage demand during marginal growing years and used as major metric of the match between animal density : preferred plant tonnage....further you go from headquarters the greater this effect...you can see it on a visit! They do not have sufficient doe tags available currently to reduce deer density back within carrying capacity over a 3 year span...and they have plotted all available arable land acres. What would be the most fitting fawn recruitment rate for his property at the present time?....30% or 100%? Would lessening predator removal for a few years help or hinder their effort to reduce deer density? Like anything else you are trying to manage.....the ecosystem must be evaluated as a whole comprised of several key parts.....what is optimum one year may not be optimum several years down the road...one must remain adaptive and flexible! BTW....Grant has told me numerous times they do not have much of a rabbit population....so what prey takes the predation hit? Grant also has the job of promoting hunting and promoting trapping to a broad audience....so there is some give and take in what he does!
Neighbors matter.....neighbors mentality matter ever more.....if neighbors goals do not align with yours, then your management efforts will suffer, especially for properties under 1000 ac managed for deer. This has frustrated me for many years....neighbors are reluctant to remove high numbers of does in a short time span (the easy part) or improve habitat quality (the more intense part)...so there is a limit to what we can achieve on our property. Grant and I think alike.....we would remove a trailer full of does if it were legally doable and the property would benefit from heavy doe harvest. Removing 1 doe per 1 buck is a long term management goal which is most successful when implemented BEFORE deer densities increase (MCAAP is a prime example) and when fawn recruitment is moderate. When deer are too dense 3-4 doe removed per 1 buck may be needed initially to give the habitat a chance to recover. If the main resource limitation to animal production is the amount (tonnage) of preferred high quality forage over the entire year, then nothing short of reducing animal density and habitat regeneration will address that limitation! It's hard to have ample tonnage of good forage if there are too many mouths around and too many hooves standing on the same land too long! When you get a tad low on density, the herd will respond with high reproduction rate....then you start monitoring for the numbers you can support over the next several years as recruitment moderates....the animal is your guide!.
Thirty-50% fawning success fits our habitat and our management very well....healthy predators are a big part of that as the doe tags available are limited....the habitat can support about 50-60 dpsm now....so 30s antlerless and 20s antlered. More importantly, the fun of family hunting is compromised when high doe harvest becomes a forced issue every year. What you are managing must remain fun to manage.....and it should be that way.....but it should also be sustainable long term management! The cats and coyotes on our property are doing the job which our neighbors are reluctant to do....how easy is that!
Last edited:
catscratch
Well-Known Member
So Malthusian theory in practice. Just letting nature do it's thing (with some help or guidance) can solve a lot of issues.
I'll check into programs for the prairie chicken later. Thanks for the info.
Quick question on doe harvest; My boy and I each shot a buck off the place this season, it's time to shoot a couple of does. An adult and her two twins walk by in the last week of December, which do you shoot? The doe or one of her doe fawn twins? Or, do you shoot two and leave one? If so do you shoot both her twins? Do you shoot her and a twin? Do you shoot one of her fawns and a doe or fawn from another group? Or does it really matter who you leave for herd health? I will add that most of our does had twins this yr and from what I've seen the twins are buck and doe.
I'll check into programs for the prairie chicken later. Thanks for the info.
Quick question on doe harvest; My boy and I each shot a buck off the place this season, it's time to shoot a couple of does. An adult and her two twins walk by in the last week of December, which do you shoot? The doe or one of her doe fawn twins? Or, do you shoot two and leave one? If so do you shoot both her twins? Do you shoot her and a twin? Do you shoot one of her fawns and a doe or fawn from another group? Or does it really matter who you leave for herd health? I will add that most of our does had twins this yr and from what I've seen the twins are buck and doe.
