Fighting mortality
- Thread starter Baker
- Start date
Triple C
Well-Known Member
Baker, that's a stud buck for sure. Like the previous post, would love to see the buck that took him down. Interesting phenomenon that is occurring in our area is the number of fights we witness now as compared to years ago when the buck/doe ration was really out of whack. I went many years and never saw 2 bucks square off. Heck, back in the 80s and 90s I hardly ever saw 2 bucks in the same sit. Now that we have a tighter ratio, it's fairly common to see bucks squaring off and so many with broken up racks. My son witnessed 2 nice 8's go out at yesterday morning. It's a cool thing to see and quite amazing at how hard they go at each other in a full blown battle. What was the age of that buck?
It goes with the territory. As you get more bucks and more bucks in the older age classes with a tight ratio fights are inevitable. makes for a furious rut and big fun hunting but them killing each other is the downside. Our best guess is this buck is 6. Typically we see most of the real fighting with the 3 and 4 yr olds so this kind of blows my theory on older bucks managing the rut better and less prone to fight. I guess the moral is that there are no absolutes with deer.
Steve Bartylla
Member
Sorry to see that, my friend (and thanks for the surprise in the mail a few months back....wow, just wow).
An issue we have as humans is that we when determine that an age class of deer are "prone" to or have a "tendency" to do this or that, we expect won't ever do the opposite. The definition of the terms tendency or prone means they actually will do the opposite, just not as much as what they tend or are prone to do.
My experiences line up with your beliefs, in that the bucks on the cusp of maturity (I see a buck as being fully mature when they reach 5 myself) have to fight more, in an effort to carve out a higher rung on the dominance ladder and when they must struggle to find an area to claim as their own. In my opinion, we must look at the big picture tendencies when trying to form beliefs on these topics. There will always be outliers. In fact, there will often be a good number of outliers, as there are pitifully few if any hard and fast rules to this stuff. We're merely trying to peg tendencies, after all.
We are the ones that seem to try so hard to assign rules to wild animals (I sure do, at least). Truth be told, when it comes to this type of stuff, the only "rule" I can think of that never gets broken is that every rule has its exceptions in the deer world.
An issue we have as humans is that we when determine that an age class of deer are "prone" to or have a "tendency" to do this or that, we expect won't ever do the opposite. The definition of the terms tendency or prone means they actually will do the opposite, just not as much as what they tend or are prone to do.
My experiences line up with your beliefs, in that the bucks on the cusp of maturity (I see a buck as being fully mature when they reach 5 myself) have to fight more, in an effort to carve out a higher rung on the dominance ladder and when they must struggle to find an area to claim as their own. In my opinion, we must look at the big picture tendencies when trying to form beliefs on these topics. There will always be outliers. In fact, there will often be a good number of outliers, as there are pitifully few if any hard and fast rules to this stuff. We're merely trying to peg tendencies, after all.
We are the ones that seem to try so hard to assign rules to wild animals (I sure do, at least). Truth be told, when it comes to this type of stuff, the only "rule" I can think of that never gets broken is that every rule has its exceptions in the deer world.
Hey there, haven't seen you in a while. Hope season going well for you and all is well up in the Hebron valley.
Got some video of this one Sunday. 9 yr old with his best rack yet. Steve B and I have a running discussion on what is a bucks best age. Might be a sub specie thing but we consistently see 7 yr plus deer looking very strong. This buck has 18 pts and best guess a tad over 190"
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John Paul
Well-Known Member
Man that's a beauty right there. I do miss it sometimes, was just down in Texas for Thanksgiving which was nice to get back down there.
deer patch
Well-Known Member
Dang Baker that thing is a toad!! Is any of these on the hit list or so they still need one more year?
I will get my buddy on the drop tine buck with archery gear next week with any luck. Not sure what we will do with the other yet. While he is certainly big there is a strong chance he could break 200" with another yr. I hope to find him again before season end and decide. He is a 7 yr old and I figure he has 1-3 yrs yet to peak.
deer patch
Well-Known Member
You sure do blow away the theory on deer going down hill at 6 or 7 yrs old. Thanks for the info.
wbpdeer
Well-Known Member
Baker's habitat is as good as it gets. If his bucks lived where most of us do, I suggest they would go down hill years sooner..
Because he gives year round feed, his deer have better longevity. We don't see 160 inch deer and some of his in that scoring range get killed in fights to the death. So deer patch where we hunt they struggle with a lesser habitat. My 2 cents ...
Because he gives year round feed, his deer have better longevity. We don't see 160 inch deer and some of his in that scoring range get killed in fights to the death. So deer patch where we hunt they struggle with a lesser habitat. My 2 cents ...
deer patch
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know he feeds year round but the last two deer if I read right is in Mexico and if I remember right it's free range (low fence). The oldest buck I have ever taken and aged was 6 yrs old and that deer had his best rack at that same age. I didn't pass him because I don't own enough land to cover a bucks home range and I knew one of my neighbors was hunting him. Point being Baker owns or controls enough land to pass on a deer at 6 or 7 yrs of age and most landowners doesn't. I still think he has shown strong merit that deer don't peek at said age as most people think.
The last two deer posted above are from my ranch in Mexico. They aren't really in line with the original intent of the thread but I saw a poster on line with brush country experience and thought he might appreciate.
The following personal observations may take this thread in a different direction so ignore if inappropriate. These are just my opinions.
Without nutrition being 100% 365 days a yr it is difficult to know either a) a deers overall potential or b) when he will peak much less longevity potential. Nutrition makes all age classes of bucks better.
I doubt there is an experienced manager anywhere in Texas that thinks bucks peak at 6. I think we can all agree that each deer is unique but there are generalities. My experience continues to develop. Whereas I tend to think 7-9 is peak I'm slowly considering 8-10. This on an extremely healthy well managed herd in the brush country along the Rio Grande. The biggest buck I have harvested from my ranch since I bought it in the mid 90's was a 10 yr old. Agreed one deer doesn't prove anything but it can be meaningful.
I am less certain of when deer peak in La. We simply haven't had enough deer die of old age to form an opinion. The biggest deer we have killed to date was 5. As he got shot it is impossible to know what future years would look like. The next two biggest deer were 6 and 7 . Both made notable improvements over the previous year. We are now getting a reasonable number of deer in the older age classes to start forming opinions. If I were to guess I'd say 6-7 is peak here [ again a very healthy herd on high nutrition ] though I'm watching closely to learn. I do believe there is validity to the idea that different sub species of deer peak at different ages. Or maybe it is a geographic thing.
I have noticed a couple of things about the biggest bucks. Usually they are big when they are little. Not all but frequently the best bucks show signs early in age. Also the biggest bucks frequently have whatever it takes to live longer and peak later. That is very anecdotal but maybe...
Regarding the comment above about my Mexico ranch being low fenced. Actually I have both down there..high fenced and low. I challenge anyone to be able to tell which pasture the pics were taken from.I can assure you we grow top end bucks in all pastures. I have several decades of experience managing both hi and low fenced properties. Moving the emotional considerations aside the one primary advantage a fence offers is the opportunity to manage age and to some degree density. Beyond that it is what you do inside the fence that determines outcomes. Many a property has ruined their deer herd with a fence and not understanding the management implications inside. Said differently, fences don't grow big deer. It's what you do inside that matters.Same as with low fenced properties.
Hope everyone is having a terrific season and aside from all the above if you see a deer you like and want to shoot him celebrate the opportunity.
The following personal observations may take this thread in a different direction so ignore if inappropriate. These are just my opinions.
Without nutrition being 100% 365 days a yr it is difficult to know either a) a deers overall potential or b) when he will peak much less longevity potential. Nutrition makes all age classes of bucks better.
I doubt there is an experienced manager anywhere in Texas that thinks bucks peak at 6. I think we can all agree that each deer is unique but there are generalities. My experience continues to develop. Whereas I tend to think 7-9 is peak I'm slowly considering 8-10. This on an extremely healthy well managed herd in the brush country along the Rio Grande. The biggest buck I have harvested from my ranch since I bought it in the mid 90's was a 10 yr old. Agreed one deer doesn't prove anything but it can be meaningful.
I am less certain of when deer peak in La. We simply haven't had enough deer die of old age to form an opinion. The biggest deer we have killed to date was 5. As he got shot it is impossible to know what future years would look like. The next two biggest deer were 6 and 7 . Both made notable improvements over the previous year. We are now getting a reasonable number of deer in the older age classes to start forming opinions. If I were to guess I'd say 6-7 is peak here [ again a very healthy herd on high nutrition ] though I'm watching closely to learn. I do believe there is validity to the idea that different sub species of deer peak at different ages. Or maybe it is a geographic thing.
I have noticed a couple of things about the biggest bucks. Usually they are big when they are little. Not all but frequently the best bucks show signs early in age. Also the biggest bucks frequently have whatever it takes to live longer and peak later. That is very anecdotal but maybe...
Regarding the comment above about my Mexico ranch being low fenced. Actually I have both down there..high fenced and low. I challenge anyone to be able to tell which pasture the pics were taken from.I can assure you we grow top end bucks in all pastures. I have several decades of experience managing both hi and low fenced properties. Moving the emotional considerations aside the one primary advantage a fence offers is the opportunity to manage age and to some degree density. Beyond that it is what you do inside the fence that determines outcomes. Many a property has ruined their deer herd with a fence and not understanding the management implications inside. Said differently, fences don't grow big deer. It's what you do inside that matters.Same as with low fenced properties.
Hope everyone is having a terrific season and aside from all the above if you see a deer you like and want to shoot him celebrate the opportunity.
wbpdeer
Well-Known Member
Baker,
I like your phrase - "celebrate the opportunity"
My best friends that have known me a long time, ask me if I am still hunting. I tell them yes. They want to know why.
Because I love it - it is a true joy.
I think we need to remember to have fun. Your deer management is out of this world when the rest of us look at our deer herds and then view your photos. My hat is off to you. Your success is beyond impressive.
Thanks for the info and photos you share.
I like your phrase - "celebrate the opportunity"
My best friends that have known me a long time, ask me if I am still hunting. I tell them yes. They want to know why.
Because I love it - it is a true joy.
I think we need to remember to have fun. Your deer management is out of this world when the rest of us look at our deer herds and then view your photos. My hat is off to you. Your success is beyond impressive.
Thanks for the info and photos you share.
