Factory shells are like BOB seed

[Native Hunter]

We all know that BOB seed mixes can have a different mixture from year to year but still be called by the same product name.

Well, I learned today that Hornady ammo is the same way.

I am a reloader and have bought almost no factory rifle shells in my life. However, last year I decided to try some of the Hornady Superformance in a new rifle. I was amazed at the accuracy. My first 4 shot group went into 1/2 inch at 100 yds. I then fired two shots as a final check at 200 yds, and they were also very close (don't remember exactly but maybe a tad over an inch).

So, I thought - "If these loads shoot so well, why even reload?" So, I buy a few boxes via the Internet. First thing I notice is that the box design has been changed but the Product Number is still the same.

But, now the ammo from the new box is giving me 1.25 inch groups instead of 1/2 inch.

I called Hornady today and asked them about this. What the representative told me was that this load could be loaded with one of 4 different powders (or even mixes of those powders) based on what they had available. Their goal is to give the same velocity regardless of which powder is being used.

Same velocity sounds fine and dandy unless you have been a reloader and know better. There can (and usually is) a big difference in group sizes with different powders, even if the loads are adjusted to the same velocity.

Oh well...I'm not mad. I learned a good lesson I probably should have already known, but not being a factory load guy I just didn't know. So, back to the loading bench for this old boy. The rifle appears to be a tight shooting gun, and I'm sure it won't take me long to back to 1/2 inch with a little tinkering.

Best wishes!!!

 

[Kabic]

I've heard if you find a load your gun likes, to get a few boxes of the same lot number. Your post explains why.

Just looked at two boxes of Hornady shells I picked up. Different lots from the same shelf. Maybe I should be paying more attention.

 

[Drycreek]

We all know that BOB seed mixes can have a different mixture from year to year but still be called by the same product name.

Well, I learned today that Hornady ammo is the same way.

I am a reloader and have bought almost no factory rifle shells in my life. However, last year I decided to try some of the Hornady Superformance in a new rifle. I was amazed at the accuracy. My first 4 shot group went into 1/2 inch at 100 yds. I then fired two shots as a final check at 200 yds, and they were also very close (don't remember exactly but maybe a tad over an inch).

So, I thought - "If these loads shoot so well, why even reload?" So, I buy a few boxes via the Internet. First thing I notice is that the box design has been changed but the Product Number is still the same.

But, now the ammo from the new box is giving me 1.25 inch groups instead of 1/2 inch.

I called Hornady today and asked them about this. What the representative told me was that this load could be loaded with one of 4 different powders (or even mixes of those powders) based on what they had available. Their goal is to give the same velocity regardless of which powder is being used.

Same velocity sounds fine and dandy unless you have been a reloader and know better. There can (and usually is) a big difference in group sizes with different powders, even if the loads are adjusted to the same velocity.

Oh well...I'm not mad. I learned a good lesson I probably should have already known, but not being a factory load guy I just didn't know. So, back to the loading bench for this old boy. The rifle appears to be a tight shooting gun, and I'm sure it won't take me long to back to 1/2 inch with a little tinkering.

Best wishes!!!

I had the very same experience with Superformance ammo. So much difference I came to call it "Stupidformance". I had already bought about 20 boxes of it though...........

 

[j-bird]

The tolerances of mass-production. Very big difference between perfect and "close enough"...especially based on your perspective! I see it every day. I try to stay within lot numbers if I can with factory ammo, but sometimes that is a challenge as well. In most cases while hunting I'm not shooting more than 100 yards anyway and 1/2" or 2" really makes little difference when I'm aiming for a target the size of a paper plate. Obviously some folks have a desire/need for something more precise than that....and if you can't buy it....you do it yourself!

 

[dogghr]

We all know that BOB seed mixes can have a different mixture from year to year but still be called by the same product name.

Well, I learned today that Hornady ammo is the same way.

I am a reloader and have bought almost no factory rifle shells in my life. However, last year I decided to try some of the Hornady Superformance in a new rifle. I was amazed at the accuracy. My first 4 shot group went into 1/2 inch at 100 yds. I then fired two shots as a final check at 200 yds, and they were also very close (don't remember exactly but maybe a tad over an inch).

So, I thought - "If these loads shoot so well, why even reload?" So, I buy a few boxes via the Internet. First thing I notice is that the box design has been changed but the Product Number is still the same.

But, now the ammo from the new box is giving me 1.25 inch groups instead of 1/2 inch.

I called Hornady today and asked them about this. What the representative told me was that this load could be loaded with one of 4 different powders (or even mixes of those powders) based on what they had available. Their goal is to give the same velocity regardless of which powder is being used.

Same velocity sounds fine and dandy unless you have been a reloader and know better. There can (and usually is) a big difference in group sizes with different powders, even if the loads are adjusted to the same velocity.

Oh well...I'm not mad. I learned a good lesson I probably should have already known, but not being a factory load guy I just didn't know. So, back to the loading bench for this old boy. The rifle appears to be a tight shooting gun, and I'm sure it won't take me long to back to 1/2 inch with a little tinkering.

Best wishes!!!

Well we all know you just arent that good of a marksman, Native. I mean have you ever even won a competition? Seriously that is an interesting observation, much same as checking arrows and broadheads as they certainly are not all the same out of the box.

BTW, you may now post one or two dozen of your match trophies, I'm just ragging you. Some of these guys I bet don't know.

 

[Native Hunter]

Well we all know you just arent that good of a marksman, Native. I mean have you ever even won a competition? Seriously that is an interesting observation, much same as checking arrows and broadheads as they certainly are not all the same out of the box.

BTW, you may now post one or two dozen of your match trophies, I'm just ragging you. Some of these guys I bet don't know.

LOL, dogghr. I hadn't told you this yet, but I decided to retire from the shooting competitions this year - first one I haven't been to since starting in 2001. It's been fun, but I now have some family commitments that are keeping me closer to home more of the time, and the excitement of it has faded as well. I'm much more happy creating outer space fruit trees and keeping you wondering what I'm going to do next.....

 

[Native Hunter]

I've heard if you find a load your gun likes, to get a few boxes of the same lot number. Your post explains why.

Just looked at two boxes of Hornady shells I picked up. Different lots from the same shelf. Maybe I should be paying more attention.

I think you are exactly right concerning the lot numbers. That assures you that the same components (especially powder) are being used.

I think Hornady and probably most other well know manufacturers can prep brass and load more precisely than I can in my basement, so quality of components and loading ability is not likely an issue. In fact, I would suspect their quality is excellent. But, keeping the same components is the issue here as you and I both know.

Good observations!

 

[Elkaddict]

NH, with one exception, I agree with you. The exception is with factory Weatherby ammo (made by Norma). In 300, 340 and 30-378, I’ve never been able to duplicate both velocity and accuracy of factory loads (each of these guns were 1/2” guns with a cold barrel). I could duplicate one or the other (accuracy or velocity), but not at the same time. This isn’t to say all factory loads shot this well—they didn’t. But the particular bullet the guns liked was phenomenal. I’ve bought the same ammo over the decades and they’ve managed to all shoot the same. The maddening thing for me was I even got my hands on Norma’s load data and couldn’t duplicate it. The only variable I can imagine was the factory crimping was done in a manner I couldn’t duplicate. Since moving to NY where internet ammo sales are outlawed and fully stocked ammo shelves for more exotic rounds don’t exist, I hoard the ammo and don’t shoot the rifles much.

I also have a LaRue PredatAR in 308 that shoots lights out with cheap federal blue box soft points. Given the cost of that ammo, I don’t reload for that rifle either.

 

[Native Hunter]

NH, with one exception, I agree with you. The exception is with factory Weatherby ammo (made by Norma). In 300, 340 and 30-378, I’ve never been able to duplicate both velocity and accuracy of factory loads (each of these guns were 1/2” guns with a cold barrel). I could duplicate one or the other (accuracy or velocity), but not at the same time. This isn’t to say all factory loads shot this well—they didn’t. But the particular bullet the guns liked was phenomenal. I’ve bought the same ammo over the decades and they’ve managed to all shoot the same. The maddening thing for me was I even got my hands on Norma’s load data and couldn’t duplicate it. The only variable I can imagine was the factory crimping was done in a manner I couldn’t duplicate. Since moving to NY where internet ammo sales are outlawed and fully stocked ammo shelves for more exotic rounds don’t exist, I hoard the ammo and don’t shoot the rifles much.

I also have a LaRue PredatAR in 308 that shoots lights out with cheap federal blue box soft points. Given the cost of that ammo, I don’t reload for that rifle either.

That makes sense and supports what I was saying - you could duplicate the velocity of the factory load, but you couldn't duplicate the accuracy. They were doing some little thing differently or using a particular set of components, and even though you could make the bullet come out of the barrel at the same speed, it just wasn't the same.

Since your factory ammo hasn't changed over the years, it could be that Weatherby/Norma is sensitive to the issue that I am describing and actually doesn't change the components. That is what a smart and caring company would do. That's what I would do if I owned the company. The rep from Hornady that I spoke to said that "everyone" changed components based on availability. Just maybe "everyone" doesn't. Just maybe "most everyone" does but not "everyone."

At the same time I was experimenting last year with the Hornady factory loads I also tried some Barnes Vortx loads in another 308 that shot them extremely well. I tried calling Barnes yesterday to ask them the same question but got tired of being on hold, but I have an email in to them right now to find out if they are in the "everyone" camp. If they tell me that they don't swap components, I might do an experiment in that rifle with different lots of the same Barnes ammo and see what happens.

I don't know why, but this is one of those things that has caught my attention and hurled me into my investigative reporter mode. I'm going to dig until I get to the bottom of it. Thanks, and your information was helpful in providing another piece to the puzzle.

 

[Elkaddict]

Make sure you chronograph the Barnes Vortx loads, they are notoriously slower than advertised.

 

[Native Hunter]

Make sure you chronograph the Barnes Vortx loads, they are notoriously slower than advertised.

Elk, it sounds like you have your lesson up on the various factory shells. Thanks for sharing the good information.

Barnes hasn't answered my email yet about whether or not they ever change powder for specific loads. I will let you know what I hear from them.

Concerning the lower than advertised velocity - The load I shot was the 150 grain TTSX Vortx in 308. It was very tight in my TC Icon bolt gun that has a 24 inch barrel. Based on what you have seen before - how much below the advertised 2900 fps velocity do you think they will be in that gun? I'm not going to chronograph them this year but will do it next spring sometime.

 

[Elkaddict]

In a 24” tube, I’d gues 2750fps. Let me know how fast it actually goes.

 

[Native Hunter]

In a 24” tube, I’d gues 2750fps. Let me know how fast it actually goes.

I

I will let you know. May be next spring unless I get some extra time sooner.

 

[Native Hunter]

In a 24” tube, I’d gues 2750fps. Let me know how fast it actually goes.

Elk, I got a chance to chronograph the loads and it was a pleasant surprise. Instead of getting less velocity, I got a tad more. The Chrony was about 8 - 10 feet from the muzzle.

Shot 1 - 2,938 fps
Shot 2 - 2,922 fps
Shot 3 - 2,935 fps
Shot 4 - 2,920 fps

PS: I also did some Internet searching and found two articles where two gun writers had chronied the VorTX loads, and they both had the same results as I did - slightly more velocity that was published on the box.

Here are the links to the two articles:

http://www.n4thehunt.com/2013/07/16/barnes-ttsx-308-150-grain-tipped-solid/
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2010/8/18/barnes-vor-tx-ammunition/

I also shot these out of a different box of shell and the accuracy didn't change. I'm shooting from 1/2 to 8/10 inch, groups at 100 yds with a mid range priced factory gun (TC Icon) and these factory shells. I love the gun, but it has a hard trigger that I'm going to get worked on sometime soon. My groups may even be better then.

PS: I heard back from Barnes. They said they would "NEVER" change components in a load. It will always be the same, so that is good news.

Looks like I need to change the title of my post = SOME factory shells are like BOB seed, but not all of them....

Thanks - Steve

 

[Elkaddict]

That’s awesome. Last time I chronographed them was several years ago. Sounds like they’ve upped their game. Are thos 150g loads out of a 308? That’s really 30-06 land.

 

[Native Hunter]

That’s awesome. Last time I chronographed them was several years ago. Sounds like they’ve upped their game. Are thos 150g loads out of a 308? That’s really 30-06 land.

Yes, a 308 with a 24 inch barrel.

 

[browndog]

Glad you started this thread. I had the same results a few days ago with my 22-250. I shot some Hornady super performance varmint Vmax 50gr rounds along with Hornady 50gr Vmax varmint express. I also shot some 53gr hollow point reloads with 38 grains H380.
First round of three shots were the reloads, I could cover all three holes on target with a penny.
Second round of three were the super performance and lets just say that all three shots were not that good, wasn't much of a group.
Third round of three were the varmint express and they were a tad better than the super performance.

 

[Native Hunter]

Glad you started this thread. I had the same results a few days ago with my 22-250. I shot some Hornady super performance varmint Vmax 50gr rounds along with Hornady 50gr Vmax varmint express. I also shot some 53gr hollow point reloads with 38 grains H380.
First round of three shots were the reloads, I could cover all three holes on target with a penny.
Second round of three were the super performance and lets just say that all three shots were not that good, wasn't much of a group.
Third round of three were the varmint express and they were a tad better than the super performance.

It sounds like you have found a great load for your 22-250. H380 is what I've been shooting in mine too. It has to be one of the top 2 or 3 powders for that caliber.

What brand and model 250 do you have?

 

[browndog]

It sounds like you have found a great load for your 22-250. H380 is what I've been shooting in mine too. It has to be one of the top 2 or 3 powders for that caliber.

What brand and model 250 do you have?

Tikka T3x...

 

[Native Hunter]

Tikka T3x...

I should have know that without asking.....