Buying land, loan question

[Mennoniteman]

I don't understand; could you explain this?

What don't you understand about politicians raising taxes to force people to do certain things? Here in PA we have high taxes on land and a major tax reduction program called "clean& green Act 309".
Everyone owning larger tracts of land is forced to enroll their land in "clean& green" to make their taxes affordable. "Clean& green" limits what you are allowed to do with your land, like if you want to give just a part of it to one of your children that's a no-no. It's limiting your freedoms of what you can do with your own land, but to not enroll is unaffordable. Hence, they are forcing you into a government program.
The proof is the fact that the majority of land tracts in PA larger than 10 acres are enrolled.

 

[yoderjac]

What don't you understand about politicians raising taxes to force people to do certain things? Here in PA we have high taxes on land and a major tax reduction program called "clean& green Act 309".
Everyone owning larger tracts of land is forced to enroll their land in "clean& green" to make their taxes affordable. "Clean& green" limits what you are allowed to do with your land, like if you want to give just a part of it to one of your children that's a no-no. It's limiting your freedoms of what you can do with your own land, but to not enroll is unaffordable. Hence, they are forcing you into a government program.
The proof is the fact that the majority of land tracts in PA larger than 10 acres are enrolled.

Incentives vs mandates. It simply means you need to be fairly rich to hold land that is not in some form of production that earns enough to pay the taxes.

We have similar programs in VA. In our case, you get a tax break on land for specific land uses by enrolling in a program. If you want to change your use of the land you can, you just have to pay the back taxes that would have otherwise been paid if you were not enrolled. This is no different than zoning and such the limits certain uses. It seems to me to be the normal political balancing between individual freedoms and societal objectives. There are also more permanent use programs here like conservation easements. They get even larger tax breaks in exchange for more and longer term limitations on use.

 

[MarkDarvin]

It's all bullshit. In America, if a person can afford to buy land, they shouldn't have to give up their rights to be able to keep it. What's going on with property taxes is horrendous and it's going to get worse. Property taxing entities eat every ounce of inflation the fed creates, so the property taxes will be a true measure of inflation.

It's equity stripping, plain and simple, and it's unconstitutional. People under financial duress are shoveling America's property rights into the hands of government at an alarming rate. Damn us all for not stopping it. Our descendants will be born into the country a slave to insurmountable debt and with no property rights.

 

[yoderjac]

It's all bullshit. In America, if a person can afford to buy land, they shouldn't have to give up their rights to be able to keep it. What's going on with property taxes is horrendous and it's going to get worse. Property taxing entities eat every ounce of inflation the fed creates, so the property taxes will be a true measure of inflation.

It's equity stripping, plain and simple, and it's unconstitutional. People under financial duress are shoveling America's property rights into the hands of government at an alarming rate. Damn us all for not stopping it. Our descendants will be born into the country a slave to insurmountable debt and with no property rights.

And there you go... We have a political system that you can use to rally folks around your point and vote locally when it comes to property taxes. If you really think it is unconstitutional, convince an attorney to take it on and sue. We have a court system that interprets constitutionality.

As we get older, we all tend to think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but most through their hands up and do nothing about it but complain. You got it right, shame on us...

 

[MarkDarvin]

And there you go... We have a political system that you can use to rally folks around your point and vote locally when it comes to property taxes. If you really think it is unconstitutional, convince an attorney to take it on and sue. We have a court system that interprets constitutionality.

As we get older, we all tend to think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but most through their hands up and do nothing about it but complain. You got it right, shame on us...

It's already in the works. Who knows if there's a smell in hell of being successful. There's already so much unconstitutional government that it'd take two lifetimes to undo it all procedurally.

Mockingbird Properties

Mockingbird Properties is a Dallas-based real estate investment company that specializes in the acquisition and development of Commercial Real Estate including luxury high-rise Condominiums, Townhomes, Retail, Multi-family, and Urban Mixed Use.

www.mockingbirdproperties.com

 

[T-Max]

That petition is weird. Why would someone in say Nevada care if the Denton Appraiser was violating USPAP? Petitions are one thing, but in court don’t you have to show you were harmed to bring suit? It would be a stretch to think someone outside of Denton would be harmed by the actions of the officials in Denton.

Anyway, we don’t have those problems in Kansas. We do have wealthy individuals gobbling up land, selling off the rights for usually nice sums of money through some government program, and eventually selling the property with those rights gone forever. They couldn’t care less.


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[MarkDarvin]

I listened to a long interview with that guy. I couldn’t find his national group link, but there are similar suits in more states than not. I’ll try to find the link to it.


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[MarkDarvin]

It's at the bottom of this article.

Mitch Vexler and Mike Adams discuss PROPERTY TAX FRAUD on the Health Ranger Report

Mike Adams highlights an alarming property tax scandal affecting many counties, where authorities improperly evaluate homeowners’ properties, setting tax rates based on desired budgets rather than actual property values. Mitch Vexler, founder of Mockingbird Properties, explains that the Uniform...

moneysupply.news

 

[T-Max]

Their system in Texas must work different than ours in Kansas. Our statutes state that properties be valued at their fair market value. People come to my office (I’m an appraiser by the way) and complain that their value went up and they didn’t do anything to their property. Are they that naive to not understand how markets work? Not have the news? Markets go up, then your value follows.

Either way, first step in the process is I value all the property. Then I pass that along to all the entities that use it. They are supposed to develop a responsible budget. The result of their budget when divided into my values determines the tax rate needed to apply to the values to generate the revenue to fund their budget. Pretty simple. I actually hate that system of taxation, but it is the law here and I assure them they want me running the appraisals. I can’t be manipulated. Apparently I would be a defendant on their petition. Strange…


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[yoderjac]

It seems to me that property taxes are a local issue. It seems to me that if local officials are doing things that are not to the liking of the community, (legal or not) the community would simply vote them out of office and prosecute in cases of illegality. Harmed individuals can also file suit.

We have lots of states and localities that have many different needs. The balance between individual rights and the needs of the local society are different in different places.

Here in my state, my property valuations go up and down with the market. They seem to lag it a bit, but they are a reasonable approximation. Each year, the local officials vote to raise or lower the millage to meet their budgetary needs. When the budgets go up to the point where property owners get angry enough, they get voted out of office. When budgets get low enough that the community becomes dissatisfied with the level of government services, the new officials get voted out. The kinds and levels of government services that folks want seem to vary greatly between urban, suburban, and rural areas.

 

[T-Max]

It seems to me that property taxes are a local issue. It seems to me that if local officials are doing things that are not to the liking of the community, (legal or not) the community would simply vote them out of office and prosecute in cases of illegality. Harmed individuals can also file suit.

We have lots of states and localities that have many different needs. The balance between individual rights and the needs of the local society are different in different places.

Here in my state, my property valuations go up and down with the market. They seem to lag it a bit, but they are a reasonable approximation. Each year, the local officials vote to raise or lower the millage to meet their budgetary needs. When the budgets go up to the point where property owners get angry enough, they get voted out of office. When budgets get low enough that the community becomes dissatisfied with the level of government services, the new officials get voted out. The kinds and levels of government services that folks want seem to vary greatly between urban, suburban, and rural areas.

That sounds like the system working as it should.


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[yoderjac]

That sounds like the system working as it should.


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Yes. And I'm very glad they have land use tax programs in my area. For example, our pine farm is in a forested-land program that reduces our taxes. We do manage and sell timber along with wildlife management, but timber sales, minus the costs (planting, herbicide application. prescribed fire, etc. ) generates very limited income from the land. Compare that to land that is suitable for row crop production or a couple hundred acre industrial park. Income produced by land in those uses is much greater on a per acre basis. Were it not for the land use program we are in, we would be paying the same taxes as the guy leasing buildings in an industrial park. It would become impractical for us to hold land for timber production without the program.

 

[MarkDarvin]

Their system in Texas must work different than ours in Kansas. Our statutes state that properties be valued at their fair market value. People come to my office (I’m an appraiser by the way) and complain that their value went up and they didn’t do anything to their property. Are they that naive to not understand how markets work? Not have the news? Markets go up, then your value follows.

Either way, first step in the process is I value all the property. Then I pass that along to all the entities that use it. They are supposed to develop a responsible budget. The result of their budget when divided into my values determines the tax rate needed to apply to the values to generate the revenue to fund their budget. Pretty simple. I actually hate that system of taxation, but it is the law here and I assure them they want me running the appraisals. I can’t be manipulated. Apparently I would be a defendant on their petition. Strange…


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That's the way Minnesota's law is written as well. We add up all the property value and allocate the tax to those by valuation for the needed budget. MN isn't bad yet. Why they haven't pulled the lever and just taken the land is beyond me, but I'll take every unencumbered year I can get. Last I heard, acre for acre, wisconsin taxes without giving timber control to the state are about 8x higher than MN.

This upcoming fiscal year is a doozie. My taxes shot up 18% all of a sudden, and I haven't made a taxable improvement since 2018. I haven't had a chance to call the county yet to find out if our spend went up 18%, or if they think rural land is flying past residential, commercial, and ag in valuation growth. 18% is alarming because if that rate continues, our property tax will double every four years. That is the road to serfdom.

 

[T-Max]

Kansas recently came out with a requirement to calculate the Revenue Neutral Rate. Very refreshing for me as the appraiser. Basically it requires jurisdictions to determine the mill levy necessary to generate the same revenue as last year, using this year’s new valuation. Those entities can exceed that rate, but it helps paint a better picture for the taxpayer about how the values and mill levies interact. Lately there has been a big turnover in leadership since people understand how for years these commissions and boards have used increased valuations to generate more tax revenue. Vote em out…

I still don’t like the tax system in Kansas. Using market value seems to punish those who keep their property nice for the community. It also tends to undervalue high priced properties since we tend to lack sales and therefore comps for those properties. We tend to have to make large adjustments to lesser comps. It is imperfect.

We DO make exception for agricultural properties and value them at an “ag use” value. It is a complicated formula, but tends to value ag properties in the neighborhood of 10-15% of their market value. That does create its own challenges as we see large 1031 exchanges from out of state rolling their investment into ag land as a tax shield. Again, imperfect.


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[OkieKubota]

I do not use any of the tax or land programs probably to my detriment but I just don’t see eye to eye with folks telling me what I can and can’t do on my own place. Every year I have cattle friends telling me what program I can get into but all have stipulations and side stuff that definitely is not to my liking so we use our calf crop and pay the taxes in full just to hang onto some freedom.

My main gripe is I keep our places locked up. Nobody from the assessor office has ever contacted me about looking at our place but they fly drones over and then try to estimate something like how big our porch is! Last assessment showed us as having a 12x24’ porch where we had a 6’x8’ porch. Also showed us as having a 2 car carport where we had a lawnmower shed that would hold 1 52” cut mower… that my friends is absolute crap!!!

 

[yoderjac]

I do not use any of the tax or land programs probably to my detriment but I just don’t see eye to eye with folks telling me what I can and can’t do on my own place. Every year I have cattle friends telling me what program I can get into but all have stipulations and side stuff that definitely is not to my liking so we use our calf crop and pay the taxes in full just to hang onto some freedom.

My main gripe is I keep our places locked up. Nobody from the assessor office has ever contacted me about looking at our place but they fly drones over and then try to estimate something like how big our porch is! Last assessment showed us as having a 12x24’ porch where we had a 6’x8’ porch. Also showed us as having a 2 car carport where we had a lawnmower shed that would hold 1 52” cut mower… that my friends is absolute crap!!!

That is the nice thing about these programs, they are voluntary and folks can decide individually if the benefit is worth any restrictions. As far as assessments go, most locales have an appeals process that lets you dispute any estimates they make.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I do not use any of the tax or land programs probably to my detriment but I just don’t see eye to eye with folks telling me what I can and can’t do on my own place. Every year I have cattle friends telling me what program I can get into but all have stipulations and side stuff that definitely is not to my liking so we use our calf crop and pay the taxes in full just to hang onto some freedom.

My main gripe is I keep our places locked up. Nobody from the assessor office has ever contacted me about looking at our place but they fly drones over and then try to estimate something like how big our porch is! Last assessment showed us as having a 12x24’ porch where we had a 6’x8’ porch. Also showed us as having a 2 car carport where we had a lawnmower shed that would hold 1 52” cut mower… that my friends is absolute crap!!!

I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes, and I would be ok with paying a little more. However, what scares me is that over the past 30 years that I have owned property in this state we have steadily been losing our freedoms compared to what we used to be allowed to do, and just like during the covid shutdown, we are a always told that we're losing our freedoms for our own good. If you extrapolate the rate of freedoms being lost it's only a matter of time until they are all gone. And I am ok with that for myself, since I'm not planning on staying here forever. But it would be nice to have some freedoms left for the younger generations that will replace us.
Recently, our local government came up with the idea that every business needs to have a lockbox with their keys in it beside the front door, so authorities can enter businesses whenever they please, and this proposal came scarily close to passing.
I built a new house last year, and on the plans I showed an extra kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom in the basement for auxiliary use. Code enforcement said that I can pick any of the two but not all three, as that would consist of a second dwelling unit in my basement, which isn't allowed. This person, he/ she/ it/ them/ can't figure out which restroom to use at a public place, but is telling me I can't finish out my own house basement inside my home.
A bigger one is the loss of freedom to make a living. For thousands of years, humans have enjoyed the freedom to make a living from their homes, but not in this area anymore. If you start baking bread in your house and selling it you will either stop or go to prison. Everyone in this neighborhood years ago grew up on raw cows milk and nobody seemed to get sick from it, but now if you milk your cow and sell the milk to your neighbor you will either stop or go to prison. But we still live in the best country in the world. I digress

 

[MarkDarvin]

I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes, and I would be ok with paying a little more. However, what scares me is that over the past 30 years that I have owned property in this state we have steadily been losing our freedoms compared to what we used to be allowed to do, and just like during the covid shutdown, we are a always told that we're losing our freedoms for our own good. If you extrapolate the rate of freedoms being lost it's only a matter of time until they are all gone. And I am ok with that for myself, since I'm not planning on staying here forever. But it would be nice to have some freedoms left for the younger generations that will replace us.
Recently, our local government came up with the idea that every business needs to have a lockbox with their keys in it beside the front door, so authorities can enter businesses whenever they please, and this proposal came scarily close to passing.
I built a new house last year, and on the plans I showed an extra kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom in the basement for auxiliary use. Code enforcement said that I can pick any of the two but not all three, as that would consist of a second dwelling unit in my basement, which isn't allowed. This person, he/ she/ it/ them/ can't figure out which restroom to use at a public place, but is telling me I can't finish out my own house basement inside my home.
A bigger one is the loss of freedom to make a living. For thousands of years, humans have enjoyed the freedom to make a living from their homes, but not in this area anymore. If you start baking bread in your house and selling it you will either stop or go to prison. Everyone in this neighborhood years ago grew up on raw cows milk and nobody seemed to get sick from it, but now if you milk your cow and sell the milk to your neighbor you will either stop or go to prison. But we still live in the best country in the world. I digress

Amen fella. All I see is affordable and reliable energy being banned, productive land being banned, rural living slipping away at an alarming rate, water going to shit, grip over food tightening and quality not only gone, but toxicity at an all time high.


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[yoderjac]

I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes, and I would be ok with paying a little more. However, what scares me is that over the past 30 years that I have owned property in this state we have steadily been losing our freedoms compared to what we used to be allowed to do, and just like during the covid shutdown, we are a always told that we're losing our freedoms for our own good. If you extrapolate the rate of freedoms being lost it's only a matter of time until they are all gone. And I am ok with that for myself, since I'm not planning on staying here forever. But it would be nice to have some freedoms left for the younger generations that will replace us.
Recently, our local government came up with the idea that every business needs to have a lockbox with their keys in it beside the front door, so authorities can enter businesses whenever they please, and this proposal came scarily close to passing.
I built a new house last year, and on the plans I showed an extra kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom in the basement for auxiliary use. Code enforcement said that I can pick any of the two but not all three, as that would consist of a second dwelling unit in my basement, which isn't allowed. This person, he/ she/ it/ them/ can't figure out which restroom to use at a public place, but is telling me I can't finish out my own house basement inside my home.
A bigger one is the loss of freedom to make a living. For thousands of years, humans have enjoyed the freedom to make a living from their homes, but not in this area anymore. If you start baking bread in your house and selling it you will either stop or go to prison. Everyone in this neighborhood years ago grew up on raw cows milk and nobody seemed to get sick from it, but now if you milk your cow and sell the milk to your neighbor you will either stop or go to prison. But we still live in the best country in the world. I digress

As I said to Mark. That is why we have the political system that we have. When things go to far in one direction and enough folks get upset, they can can band together and vote out the local politicians.

When contractors use subpar materials and construction and buildings collapse, folks clamor for more regulation, when the regulations are so tight, I can't change a lightbulb without a permit, folks clamor for more freedom. Our political system is the way to negotiate this. No one ends up completely happy but most folks think it is "good enough". That is probably the best we can hope for.