Antler Conformation

[dogghr]

I would just once on any of these threads of this guy see an actual study done rather than alluding to a supposed Dr or some secret university study, or some name that have somehow lost contact, or with an imaginary never mentioned hunting clubs. WTF, since when did university, tax or private supported studies suddenly become so damn top secret. It must be the Russians. Someone was right earlier, I need waders, not taller boots.

 

[Native Hunter]

I would just once on any of these threads of this guy see an actual study done rather than alluding to a supposed Dr or some secret university study, or some name that have somehow lost contact, or with an imaginary never mentioned hunting clubs. WTF, since when did university, tax or private supported studies suddenly become so damn top secret. It must be the Russians. Someone was right earlier, I need waders, not taller boots.

"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone."

 

[OkieKubota]

You never like Baker's


Baker, he never likes any of your examples - apparently because you don't cooperate. Maybe he will like mine better. These two deer ran together the whole summer. First a pic of them together and next a pic of each facing the camera.

That middle buck is one of the coolest I have ever seen...he must have lived in the thickest of thick and I am not even sure how you could get a picture of him from more than 3 feet away

 

[Native Hunter]

That middle buck is one of the coolest I have ever seen...he must have lived in the thickest of thick and I am not even sure how you could get a picture of him from more than 3 feet away

I think that's what happened to him - he got in brush so thick that he got hung up and died...

 

[OkieKubota]

I think that's what happened to him - he got in brush so thick that he got hung up and died...

Surely not...his antlers had fully conformed!

 

[catscratch]

Lol. I stepped out of this conversation long ago when I realized where it was headed... but it's been fun to follow along!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[SwampCat]

So, while we are on this topic - I own two pieces of property, eight miles apart in the same river bottoms. The deer on my home ground property rarely exceed 8 pts and the deer on my other property often attain 10 points for the same age deer. I dont see any difference between the vegetative types on the two properties - and it fact - would consider my home ground property to be a better antler site due to the close proximity of large lime deposits. Could there really be that much genetic difference in unfenced deer herds, eight miles apart?

 

[Triple C]

I would just once on any of these threads of this guy see an actual study done rather than alluding to a supposed Dr or some secret university study, or some name that have somehow lost contact, or with an imaginary never mentioned hunting clubs. WTF, since when did university, tax or private supported studies suddenly become so damn top secret. It must be the Russians. Someone was right earlier, I need waders, not taller boots.

Yep! This smells of Russian collusion. Been entertaining at times. I for one am bout ready for bowriter to find another audience on which to hawk his “expertise”. Otherwise I gotta start managing for habitat modifications to manipulate wide racks and narrow racks and quit killling deer out of tower stands.

 

[Chainsaw]

Yep! This smells of Russian collusion. Been entertaining at times. I for one am bout ready for bowriter to find another audience on which to hawk his “expertise”. Otherwise I gotta start managing for habitat modifications to manipulate wide racks and narrow racks and quit killling deer out of tower stands.

TripleC, Bowriter and other forum members, this is a strange situation where someone (Bowriter) who reportedly has this huge amount of experience yet his thinking is in such complete contrast with at minimum most of us on this forum. On most deer topics expressed so far Bowriter has expressed, his opinions are most incredulous, incongruous, and and just plain contrary to what our experiences have taught us. If Bowriter has the experiences he has indicated and we as a group know we have experience and are really are over the top in deer knowledge and hunting accomplishments as Steve Bartylla has told us,then how do we think so differently?

Believing in Steve's assertions about this forum group, and the collective woods experience this forum group has and seeing no reason to doubt this guy's experience, there can only be one of two things going on here.
1. Bowriter could be a just plain bad actor like the two or three that we had seen on the old forum where some people just got a kick out of disrupting the forum.
or
2. Bowriter really does have all of the hunting experience he claims and it is just so hugely different than ours that he has reached different conclusions than us. For example we all mostly hunt in EXTREME low pressure ways and through that are seeing mature deer throughout the day and some even in more "open" areas. As I posted on my thread we are experiencing a mature deer movement daytime rate at 71.8% of total mature deer movement and others really are consistently shooting the best deer in their area out of tower stands.This is fully opposite to what Bowriter might have experienced in his hunting operations. If so it doesn't make him wrong in his thinking as it would be based on hunting over pressured lands. If that is true then maybe he can learn a lot from us and we can learn from him. And if so I'm glad he has joined us. I was happy to see a new active poster join the forum and if he is giving us his best then I'm happy he is here. He has not shown himself to be rude or mean yet, just contrary to what we know to be true on our hunting lands.

And there is no disputing that in adding up buck pictures on Okie's posts that listening and or addition are not Bowriters' strong points.
So while this is strange I think we should hang in just a little while longer and see what the reason is for this obvious disjoint in thinking. Bowriter, I think it would be appropriate now for you to explain what is your take on this.

 

[catscratch]

So, while we are on this topic - I own two pieces of property, eight miles apart in the same river bottoms. The deer on my home ground property rarely exceed 8 pts and the deer on my other property often attain 10 points for the same age deer. I dont see any difference between the vegetative types on the two properties - and it fact - would consider my home ground property to be a better antler site due to the close proximity of large lime deposits. Could there really be that much genetic difference in unfenced deer herds, eight miles apart?

My answer is yes... there can be this much genetic difference in close populations. Not every trait has to be beneficial to survival or reproductive purposes. So long as long as the trait isn't harmful it can become frequent in a population without actually helping that population. Sexual reproduction creates a lot of variations and diversity. The number of points on antlers probably isn't nearly as important (evolutionary) as having antlers to begin with. Therefore a variation in a certain number of "points" allele can become frequent in a population for no logical reason other than it just become frequent.

To answer why "here and not there (8 miles away)". Who knows, perhaps a doe with a dominant allele for 10 points was promiscuous and created a family group with that allele, and it's now commonly seen but hasn't spread 8 miles down the creek because the does haven't had much relocation. Perhaps the buck/doe ratio was such on a particular spot that at one time a certain buck did the majority of the breeding. Perhaps the 10 point allele has traveled but the 8pt allele was more dominant and repressed expression. Or, terrain and traditional travel routes don't lend themselves to the populations mixing. I have a friend who owns property 1/4 miles from my property. We share pictures... Cover, food sources, and terrain features have made it so that we rarely see each others bucks. I know that deer travel a lot, in this case they don't travel in each other's directions.

Lots of random stuff in my post. I can't back any of it with data. Take it with a grain of salt if needed.

 

[wbpdeer]

I can add one detail about the "8 miles apart" situation. I plant trees and it is amazing how trees 20 feet apart grow differently.

We can't see what is beneath the hole we dig for each tree. The soil can be worlds apart between point A and point B on your 8 mile distance. Some ground is fertile and other ground is not. The 8 miles apart can move you from a situation with ag present to a situation where no ag is available and the topsoil is shallow.

Good soil produces good bucks.

When I plant a tree that was healthy and dies in a spot - I never put another tree in that specific location. Lord has done told me once - I ain't betting against what I saw. Something underneath the ground caused me a problem with the tree IMO - so move on.

Deer can vary greatly 8 miles apart for plenty of reasons - available protein, hunting pressure, sanctuaries, etc. The list goes on.

Wayne

 

[OkieKubota]

I can add one detail about the "8 miles apart" situation. I plant trees and it is amazing how trees 20 feet apart grow differently.

We can't see what is beneath the hole we dig for each tree. The soil can be worlds apart between point A and point B on your 8 mile distance. Some ground is fertile and other ground is not. The 8 miles apart can move you from a situation with ag present to a situation where no ag is available and the topsoil is shallow.

Good soil produces good bucks.

When I plant a tree that was healthy and dies in a spot - I never put another tree in that specific location. Lord has done told me once - I ain't betting against what I saw. Something underneath the ground caused me a problem with the tree IMO - so move on.

Deer can vary greatly 8 miles apart for plenty of reasons - available protein, hunting pressure, sanctuaries, etc. The list goes on.

Wayne

Our largest deer in our area seem to come from the flint hills with no ag...I uses to always say that when I got to hunt flint ridges I was gonna be in big deer territory...has served me well...

 

[Native Hunter]

TripleC, Bowriter and other forum members, this is a strange situation where someone (Bowriter) who reportedly has this huge amount of experience yet his thinking is in such complete contrast with at minimum most of us on this forum. On most deer topics expressed so far Bowriter has expressed, his opinions are most incredulous, incongruous, and and just plain contrary to what our experiences have taught us. If Bowriter has the experiences he has indicated and we as a group know we have experience and are really are over the top in deer knowledge and hunting accomplishments as Steve Bartylla has told us,then how do we think so differently?

Believing in Steve's assertions about this forum group, and the collective woods experience this forum group has and seeing no reason to doubt this guy's experience, there can only be one of two things going on here.
1. Bowriter could be a just plain bad actor like the two or three that we had seen on the old forum where some people just got a kick out of disrupting the forum.
or
2. Bowriter really does have all of the hunting experience he claims and it is just so hugely different than ours that he has reached different conclusions than us. For example we all mostly hunt in EXTREME low pressure ways and through that are seeing mature deer throughout the day and some even in more "open" areas. As I posted on my thread we are experiencing a mature deer movement daytime rate at 71.8% of total mature deer movement and others really are consistently shooting the best deer in their area out of tower stands.This is fully opposite to what Bowriter might have experienced in his hunting operations. If so it doesn't make him wrong in his thinking as it would be based on hunting over pressured lands. If that is true then maybe he can learn a lot from us and we can learn from him. And if so I'm glad he has joined us. I was happy to see a new active poster join the forum and if he is giving us his best then I'm happy he is here. He has not shown himself to be rude or mean yet, just contrary to what we know to be true on our hunting lands.

And there is no disputing that in adding up buck pictures on Okie's posts that listening and or addition are not Bowriters' strong points.
So while this is strange I think we should hang in just a little while longer and see what the reason is for this obvious disjoint in thinking. Bowriter, I think it would be appropriate now for you to explain what is your take on this.

Great post Dave, and the first thing I would like to hear explained is the new math of how 8 = 2. If that can't be explained, then I'm not interested in hearing anything more. However, if it can be explained, I am all ears.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

My answer is yes... there can be this much genetic difference in close populations. Not every trait has to be beneficial to survival or reproductive purposes. So long as long as the trait isn't harmful it can become frequent in a population without actually helping that population. Sexual reproduction creates a lot of variations and diversity. The number of points on antlers probably isn't nearly as important (evolutionary) as having antlers to begin with. Therefore a variation in a certain number of "points" allele can become frequent in a population for no logical reason other than it just become frequent.

To answer why "here and not there (8 miles away)". Who knows, perhaps a doe with a dominant allele for 10 points was promiscuous and created a family group with that allele, and it's now commonly seen but hasn't spread 8 miles down the creek because the does haven't had much relocation. Perhaps the buck/doe ratio was such on a particular spot that at one time a certain buck did the majority of the breeding. Perhaps the 10 point allele has traveled but the 8pt allele was more dominant and repressed expression. Or, terrain and traditional travel routes don't lend themselves to the populations mixing. I have a friend who owns property 1/4 miles from my property. We share pictures... Cover, food sources, and terrain features have made it so that we rarely see each others bucks. I know that deer travel a lot, in this case they don't travel in each other's directions.

Lots of random stuff in my post. I can't back any of it with data. Take it with a grain of salt if needed.

I like the theory, but in my opinion I think this is a case of differing age structure or soil quality. I don’t think a few individuals could contribute that much to a small area. I just think deer move too much and a buck’s antlers genetics aren’t all coming from the father

 

[SwampCat]

I like the theory, but in my opinion I think this is a case of differing age structure or soil quality. I don’t think a few individuals could contribute that much to a small area. I just think deer move too much and a buck’s antlers genetics aren’t all coming from the father

It is not different age structure - I am talking a 4 yr old compared to a 4 yr old, etc. the land is bottomland in the same river valley

 

[catscratch]

It is not different age structure - I am talking a 4 yr old compared to a 4 yr old, etc. the land is bottomland in the same river valley

I lean towards a random allele becoming dominant/frequent in a family group of does. I will add that since young bucks disperse it's likely that the doe group isn't even on the property in question. With that said I once again freely state that these are just my thoughts on things. I have anecdotal evidence that compels me, but no useful data.

 

[PineSapJunky]

Great post Dave, and the first thing I would like to hear explained is the new math of how 8 = 2. If that can't be explained, then I'm not interested in hearing anything more. However, if it can be explained, I am all ears.

Common Core.....nuff said

 

[catscratch]

Just curious what you all's thoughts are on these deer. These are all genetic trails, no broken or rubbed down points. Same property or different? Same time frame or spread out over time? Lol, dense cover or open?

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[PineSapJunky]

Looks like they are a product of broken branches and jiffy extra crunchy...this coming from a well respected professor from a highly accredited university who will not be named that spent 8-14 years studying the mating habits of the elusive southern flying squirrel

 

[wbpdeer]

Is that the "famous Mississippi Squirrel" that dear ole Ray sang 'bout?