Amazing

[Jason Broom]

Growing big bucks, or more accurately stated, providing the quality habitat and management efforts required for bucks to display health and age via antler growth, should absolutely be celebrated! It should not be the goal, but a happy coincidence of the efforts made to improve habitat. Baker, your interest in soil health, silviculture and overall herd/habitat health is what I have come to understand are your motivations...unless I miss my guess, the large-racked bucks you observe and harvest have become secondary to those higher goals?

I would like to clarify an earlier statement I made, just so folks don't misunderstand. I am not puzzled by those who want to shoot a buck with large antlers. I am puzzled by those who won't admit that is their primary focus, or admit to that obsession, but STILL won't do what is indicated to reach their own goals. Truth be told, I very much like shooting bucks with larger antlers; it confirms my efforts to improve the habitat a bit and lay off shooting yearling bucks is paying off, to some degree. There is a subtle difference between being motivated to provide the habitat conditions for bucks to display their best potential...and focusing mostly on the bony protrusions, themselves.

With all due respect, I do not get the sense that the OP grasps that distinction, or hasn't been honest with himself about his motivations. If he HAS...then he's simply unwilling to make the hard choices required to reach that goal. To put it in perspective: I'm reasonably certain if he had a large, high-fence enclosure to manage, he'd keep way too many deer in it, do little to improve the habitat, and STILL not realize his dreams of a Booner. Perhaps I am wrong about that, and if I am, I apologize.

 

[dogghr]

I think Baker and Jason really did a great job of summing up what good majority of people the come to a forum like this think. And I loved Bakers comment about the QDM/TDM confusion. Those two are intertwined no matter how we like to play with their semantics. And I'm quite sure that a man like Baker who counts earthworms in his soil loves the management part so much and the antlers are just the evidence of the effort made, as it is with me and many others. And Jason, while he isn't a horn chaser per se, loves the management also and considers his antlers a bonus in the grand scheme of things. A proof of his work.
I like to work out. Always have, doesn't really look like it. But as I lift weights, I have no desire to be a Swartznegger, but the results of my efforts, is at least some muscle that shows( don't laugh ) . Now if I want that improvement in my body, its just not going to be able to daily ingest a dozen donuts that I love. Choices have to be made. And when Bull shows his obvious over browsing and is somehow shocked, and refuses to trim the fat but still wants the P&Y but also the donuts, it is simply a refusal to make needed choices to reach the goal he supposedly wants.
We all evaluate our land and actions on it. If its not working, we choose to do nothing, or try and change our process. No decision is a decision.

 

[Baker]

Truth of the matter is that where I am now started with wanting to grow big bucks. Like many I've been deer hunting all my life. In the beginning I wanted a deer any deer. Then it became a buck, any buck. Then I started looking for bigger bucks. At some point in the journey the youngsters I was shooting no longer held my attention and management began seeping in to give me the opportunity to move up the ladder.

Over time I became infatuated with what it took to grow truly outstanding deer. One thing I learned fairly quickly is that you don't get to shoot many bucks if you want to grow really big bucks. From there the whole psychology and passion did a BIG shift to focusing on the process instead of the outcome. What a joy that became as it allowed year round activity and attention on a much broader pallet than just finding a big deer. Everything changed and my study shifted to eco health and building from the dirt up.Come to find out the subject is incredibly fascinating, broad, deep, spiritual, and immensely rewarding. And a delightful fringe benefit is that I'm growing my biggest deer ever.

Anyone can kill a big buck these days. Pull out your wallet, book a hunt on a top notch ranch and the odds are in your favor. I , for one, can't imagine shooting a deer I did not grow. For me, it is the challenge of consistently growing them far more than the end game. And I believe that starts from the soil up.

 

[cutman]

Your last paragraph sums up my views perfectly. I have no interest in shooting a big buck I did not personally manage for. None whatsoever.

 

[TrampledbyTurtles]

Agree with everything u fellas above stated.
And still disagree in some regards.

I cant grow big mule deer, antelope or elk.
But I will still be chasing them come fall.

Providing a safe haven an habitat in an area devoid of it.
Is how I spend the majority of my free time In the offseason.
I don't bow hunt for whitetails anywhere else but my own. I'm lucky enough to be able to say that. A lot of individuals can't.

But the passion still emanates from the hunt.

 

[Jason Broom]

...

But the passion still emanates from the hunt.

Like Baker, I have gone through an evolution that is pretty common for hunters. When I planted my first food plots, the main goal was to create conditions for my dad, wife and children to see more deer during their hunts. A very close second, in terms of goals, was to see bucks with bigger antlers. Within the first two years, sightings were up dramatically and larger bucks had gravitated to the doe family groups frequenting our modestly improved land. One thing this process of habitat management teaches you is the lesson of the one-eyed man leading the blind; if your property is just a little better than those around you, the results can be dramatic.

So, while the original passion came from hunting, I must echo Baker's message about the process of management being gratifying on its own merits. The fact that it can be pursued year 'round, and that it is a long-term endeavor, by its very nature, makes it a worthy lifelong passion. Since I first came to the personal conclusion that, for me, quality habitat leads to much more rewarding hunting, I have contemplated what I would do if the hunting were no longer part of the equation. Suffice to say that I have helped more than a few folks get started in their own habitat journey, and have offers to hunt properties better than mine, most years, but I have ultimately concluded that helping magnify God's work, and helping others do the same, truly does mean more to me than the hunt, itself. Were hunting to be removed from the equation, I would be saddened immensely...but I would take great solace in the joys of improving soil, growing trees, and otherwise doing my part to leave a tiny piece of this world a better place. That is my passion and it emanates from a different source.

 

[TrampledbyTurtles]

All I know Jason is we need more people to have that mindset. The world would be a better place.


And I just want to clarify, when I said the hunt not hunting. I firmly believe there is a big distinction.

The hunt is everything, the trails and tribulations. The success the failures. The early morning sunrises, the sunsets.
The sweat, the calluses, the dirt under the finger nails, the exhaustion at the end of the day after hand weeding 1000 young cedars.
Deer camp, being able to take friends that have rarely have had the chance or place to hunt. And hear the passion they got from experiences they encounter.
Early mornings in the slough just watching the ducks buzz the slough line.
Hot cups of coffee in the spitting snow after setting up 7 dozen full bodies, an the anticipation of the first honk in the distance.
Watching that slip bobber pop under the water for the first time chasing bull blue gills.
Watching my miniature dash hound try to tree squirrels, or chase rabbits out of the bush. With very little clue of the purpose.
The anticipation of the first check of the trap line after weeks of planning an prep.

Then almost the best part in the spoils of chislic, roasts, strap steaks, deep fried dove, frog legs, pheasant poppers, goose fajitas, smoked goose breast, fish fry's with friends and cold beer. An on an on an on.

Knowing that I am trying my hardest, to provide wildlife a place that their ancestors might have once recognized. In a landscape devoid of its once proud history.

The Quite stillness that sets in the first morning on stand of the season.
The realization of just how small we really are in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Chainsaw]

Great thread as usual Bull with lots of good thinking from everyone. I have been fortunate to see this property run a full cycle from having almost no deer to having so many we actually considered hunting with hand thrown spears at one time; and then back to having very few deer again. Now the population is building again and very quickly at that. During the years on overpopulation we actually had morning in the woods sits of up to 35 deer walking by a stand(all heading in the same direction so double counting not likely). Counts in the twenties per in the woods sits were more normal and this was in low visibility areas with views of only twenty to fifty yards and no mineral or bait stations, just natural deer movement.

At first we took a few deer and quickly found that a few like ten or so a season had zero impact on reducing or even maintaining the previous years numbers. So we upped the harvesting to 15, 20, then 25 a year and still the population continued to rise. Harvesting and processing that many deer was a chore and we got to do very little hunting-mostly just a lot of shooting. It was not until seemingly all hunters in the neighborhood starting shooting does hard that the population started to become reduced from the year before. And reduce quickly it did and then came one of the toughest winters I have seen and a kill on this property of over thirty deer that I found and counted. . Prior to the deer becoming severely over populated the plant diversity was extreme; today it is much lower but increasing.

From all of this I would say that it is unlikely Bull could possibly reduce the herd to say ten deer per square mile by harvesting as many deer on his property as legally possible. It takes an entire neighborhood a few years doing the same thing to accomplish that. Nor am I sure that even if the entire neighborhood wanted to that it would be worth it. Artificially maintaining plant diversity thru fencing may be the best route for now for those that can make it happen. Maintaining the balance in nature with free ranging animals is bigger than any of us, I believe. Our actions can impact but not control the whole system. Soon enough nature will take over with a large corrective and yes devastating action. This could not have been avoided with the mindset and knowledge in place at the time; We all now have this knowledge and mindset but all or most of us did not when this situation was developed.

When nature takes over those property owners with the best habitat may see the same population losses as everyone else; the good properties however may rebound quickly though both in animal populations and plant diversity. So My take would be to do just what Bull is doing with increased emphasis on preserving habitat diversification and mast trees especially larger ones while also moving other areas into earlier succession growth and cover.

Meanwhile Bull, enjoy the great hunting going on in your area.

 

[Pacahunter]

Bull who is your contact for the fencing? What did it cost approximately?

 

[Mennoniteman]

Like Baker, I have gone through an evolution that is pretty common for hunters. When I planted my first food plots, the main goal was to create conditions for my dad, wife and children to see more deer during their hunts. A very close second, in terms of goals, was to see bucks with bigger antlers. Within the first two years, sightings were up dramatically and larger bucks had gravitated to the doe family groups frequenting our modestly improved land. One thing this process of habitat management teaches you is the lesson of the one-eyed man leading the blind; if your property is just a little better than those around you, the results can be dramatic.

So, while the original passion came from hunting, I must echo Baker's message about the process of management being gratifying on its own merits. The fact that it can be pursued year 'round, and that it is a long-term endeavor, by its very nature, makes it a worthy lifelong passion. Since I first came to the personal conclusion that, for me, quality habitat leads to much more rewarding hunting, I have contemplated what I would do if the hunting were no longer part of the equation. Suffice to say that I have helped more than a few folks get started in their own habitat journey, and have offers to hunt properties better than mine, most years, but I have ultimately concluded that helping magnify God's work, and helping others do the same, truly does mean more to me than the hunt, itself. Were hunting to be removed from the equation, I would be saddened immensely...but I would take great solace in the joys of improving soil, growing trees, and otherwise doing my part to leave a tiny piece of this world a better place. That is my passion and it emanates from a different source.

This thread is some great reading! And thanks for being civil in the discussion! We philosophize, why do we do what we do? Thanks Jason for observing that our motives and ideals change over time. And thanks for this; "helping magnify God's work, and helping others do the same, truly does mean more to me than the hunt, itself. Were hunting to be removed from the equation, I would be saddened immensely" Hunting is just an excuse to get out into God's creation and get our hand dirty.
My observation; The commonality that we have, everyone that posted on this thread does something to conserve, preserve, and improve God's creation/ wildlife habitat. We all do it a bit differently. But we are trying, learning, and we are making a difference in preserving our wildlife, our traditions, and our heritage for our children and grandchildren. Keep posting, I enjoy reading.

 

[lakngolf]

Just got caught up on this thread. Y'all are plowing deep, no throw and mow here!

 

[Pacahunter]

I'd like to hear some ideas on how to keep doe groups off my property. For the first 3 years when I hit the does real hard I was killing 5-10 year old does. Literally, that's all I was killing. Now I get these groups that come in, in spurts.
I shot a 6,4, and 2 yearling does last year. I went many sits not seeing a deer. This winter I counted 96 deer on the fields near my property.
I only went 2 days last year where I passed on shot opportunities at does. I honestly never could have shot a doe during the rut. Both were opening weekend of gun season. I didn't see a deer all day opening day until I got down at last light, I stalked a cut corn field and watched 15 stroll out. I figured Mr big would stroll out, but not a horn.
I would estimate 3/4 of my sits I never saw a deer. I did shoot a 5.5 year old mid 150s buck. Also saw a 165"er and an old 12 pointer that only scored mid 130s. My buck responded to a grunt call during the rut. I put my time in, but last year was actually kinda boring.
So, how do I lower my population? I could honestly say I passed on 3 doe opportunities, that's it. There was some gentleman being very critical of bull, and apparently my situation in Waupaca county. Those 3 does wouldn't save me from my browse pressure. What's my solution? There is only so many days and opportunities to hunt, how do I be a so called "responsible landowner" and solve my overpopulation issue?
I am already harvesting/seeing world class bucks, and still getting to shoot multiple does on a small property? I love working on my land just like everyone else. It's almost a 365 deal. My question to the critiques, is this a bad thing, or is this a dream that most will never achieve?
If I can improve I'm all ears?

 

[Pacahunter]

Land is also an investment, at least for me. Doin your best to get that investment to grow is important. I get approached multiple times a year to sell my property, and the offers can be very generous and tempting.
Land is very costly, it's nice to say owning land is all about just hunting or improving the ground itself. I'm not there, my value had to grow.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Paca - how many acres do you have? Do your neighbors shoot does as hard as you do?

You seem to know this already but finding great land for sale in Waupaca is hard. The deer are not spread out evenly. You may regret selling a farm in a great neighborhood. You sound like you have a great place to me. Planting norways (or doing something for security or bedding)and low pressure is my guess. Quit shooting does for a few years or only shoot them with bow on very low pressure stands. The deer seem like they don't bed on your place but like what you have to offer for food.

 

[Kabic]

Glad we get Dipperesque posts to ponder over again.

If I get a chance I'll try to take a photo of the tree line here on the western side of the state.

 

[wklman]

Glad we get Dipperesque posts to ponder over again.

If I get a chance I'll try to take a photo of the tree line here on the western side of the state.

I miss dipper. He was the ultimate of the ultimates. Nobody had better hunting then him, nobody knew better then him, and nobody shot better deer. Alas that kind of perspective is rare indeed.

 

[Pacahunter]

120, some neighbors shoot does, some don't. The deer filter to my property from a mile or so. Almost everyone passes yearling bucks. It's 50/50 that will pass 2, and 3s. Getting bucks to 4 plus still isn't easy, but they are there.
Neighbors make or break a property. When neighborhoods start passing 4 year olds, you could really have something special. Guys do, and that's when you see the 160 and up bucks....

 

[Reagan]

I miss dipper. He was the ultimate of the ultimates. Nobody had better hunting then him, nobody knew better then him, and nobody shot better deer. Alas that kind of perspective is rare indeed.

Bull does his best to fill the void.

If there is a Dipper void.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mennoniteman]

I'd like to hear some ideas on how to keep doe groups off my property. For the first 3 years when I hit the does real hard I was killing 5-10 year old does. Literally, that's all I was killing. Now I get these groups that come in, in spurts.
I shot a 6,4, and 2 yearling does last year. I went many sits not seeing a deer. This winter I counted 96 deer on the fields near my property.
I only went 2 days last year where I passed on shot opportunities at does. I honestly never could have shot a doe during the rut. Both were opening weekend of gun season. I didn't see a deer all day opening day until I got down at last light, I stalked a cut corn field and watched 15 stroll out. I figured Mr big would stroll out, but not a horn.
I would estimate 3/4 of my sits I never saw a deer. I did shoot a 5.5 year old mid 150s buck. Also saw a 165"er and an old 12 pointer that only scored mid 130s. My buck responded to a grunt call during the rut. I put my time in, but last year was actually kinda boring.
So, how do I lower my population? I could honestly say I passed on 3 doe opportunities, that's it. There was some gentleman being very critical of bull, and apparently my situation in Waupaca county. Those 3 does wouldn't save me from my browse pressure. What's my solution? There is only so many days and opportunities to hunt, how do I be a so called "responsible landowner" and solve my overpopulation issue?
I am already harvesting/seeing world class bucks, and still getting to shoot multiple does on a small property? I love working on my land just like everyone else. It's almost a 365 deal. My question to the critiques, is this a bad thing, or is this a dream that most will never achieve?
If I can improve I'm all ears?

Interesting story on your deer hunting. But I'm trying to figure out if you're saying you have too many deer or not enough deer?

 

[Jason Broom]

Neighbors make or break a property.

That's the first cut n' dried statement you've made. You and Bull should work on putting together a coop. Seems like you have a lot in common.