Amazing

[Bullwinkle]

Controlling an over population is just as complicated as promoting an under population. I am also a land owner in Waupaca county. I have attempted to shoot every single doe during every single hunting opportunity. I can and have eliminated every single doe from my property just to have a herd move in and just keep chowing. Than come hunting season comes, I literally shoot every doe, but the cycle continues.
The most promise I observed was the earn a buck years, but the governor outlawed it. I can only speculate to what extreme the DNR would have taken the population if EAB would have continued. It might have gone to levels the Minnesota guys used to complain about.
I can guarantee you leaving a queen doe won't fix bull's situation, if he really had a situation at all?
I am on many properties in Waupaca county, some places there is an insane overpopulation, some places the habitat is healthy. I've seen the drastic extremes in just a half mile. It sounds like bulls property might fit into that layout.

I don't think anyone could possibly understand the Dynamics of wi deer hunting if you don't live it. Bull doesn't consistently harvest old high scoring bucks because he doesn't have robust regeneration, it's because the old bucks aren't able to get old. I don't think someone from Iowa or Oklahoma could imagine just how many hunters are in the insanely popular areas of wi.
I hunted Iowa numerous times and have seen hunting get more popular in the area I hunted. Anyone who hunts that area will tell you the mega bucks aren't like they used to be, because they just aren't getting that old anymore.

Spot on. 100% agree with all your points. Thanks for sharing

Guys not from around us don't understand. 2 years ago I heard 100 shots within the first 27 minutes of gun opener. Last year was so windy I could only hear to the south and the first 100 shots took 3.5 hours. On Sunday morning I heard 100 shots in 45 minutes.

My land isn't extreme. We don't get close to seeing 100 deer a sit. More like 15-20. I don't want any more but I would like some more 6 and 7 year olds

I know how to get rid of the deer. Quit planting plots, put pressure on the deer, fill in my water holes and cut down my oak trees.

Wish we had earn a buck back

 

[Jason Broom]

My land isn't extreme. We don't get close to seeing 100 deer a sit. More like 15-20. I don't want any more but I would like some more 6 and 7 year olds

I know how to get rid of the deer. Quit planting plots, put pressure on the deer, fill in my water holes and cut down my oak trees.

Wish we had earn a buck back

I can honestly say I've never seen 15 to 20 deer in a single sit on any of the properties I manage across Lake Michigan from you. There are PLENTY of hunters, that's for sure, but where I see a reasonable number of deer because of the habitat work I do, you see an excessive number. I never would have thought I'd feel bad for a guy who sees 15-20 deer per sit, but when you start understanding deer biology and healthy habitat, you know that's just too many. Heck...I've gone an entire week without seeing 15-20 deer.

 

[TrampledbyTurtles]

Been following this thread, have a few thoughts id like to throw out there.

Honestly I believe every location provides a different set of challenges that we as managers all face across the US.
Wisconsin is not Michigan, nor are the problems that one faces in South Carolina the same as another guy in Texas.
Which I am sure is not news to anyone on this board.

Quick Example from my perspective.

I can honestly say that I have seen over 60 deer at a time using our 160ac. And no I didn't view this as a good thing or intentional.

Reason being the harsh realities of our winters. Some years they are relatively mild. And a higher percentage of wildlife in general survive to reproduce the following year. Creating a growth in overall numbers. The next, can be downright devastating. Ag fields covered in 2 inches of freezing rain with feet of snow piled on top. Coupled with the never ceasing winter winds. Creates a quick recipe to complete disaster. This will drive deer into herds that can reach some epic numbers. Have seen groups of over 120 at times.

One time I was tasked with removing more than 30 frozen deer out of a snowbirds farm house. Literally stacked on the back porch looking for any kind of shelter to get out of the wind. They ate the front yard landscaping bushes down to sticks coming out of the ground. Conifers stripped bare of needles. I will say that was tuff

But, this same landscape, also houses the potential for quick rebound with the never ending block fields of Ag ground. Pretty common to see up to half sections of continuous corn. This fall I will be surrounded by 4 full sections of soybeans. Talk about a summer lunch buffet. (should be able to get some decent summertime scouting in this year)

As they say, The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry
Realizing that mother nature can an will in one foul swoop, strip away all of our best laid plans an goals in managing wildlife. I believe is critical in our efforts into laying well rounded management plans and end goals.

I see a lot of guys bashing single crop plantings in the food plot forum. An I get it to some extent. We always want to provide a maximum array of options and create diversity. But I will admit, my food plots right now are roughly 70-80% corn every year.

The sole reason being available food in the winter months, Dec-Feb. A time that is lacking sufficient brows, and most other food sources have dried up. Most other parts of the year. The few deer we normally host 7-15 have more than enough natural options paired with the neighboring crops.

I guess in that scheme I am just looking to fill the lowest hole in the bucket

Wow, that went longer than planned, hope I didn't lose anyone in the jabbing.
Probably wasn't even in the same ballpark of thought as some now I come to think of it. ha

 

[Jason Broom]

Been following this thread, have a few thoughts id like to throw out there.

Honestly I believe every location provides a different set of challenges that we as managers all face across the US.
Wisconsin is not Michigan, nor are the problems that one faces in South Carolina the same as another guy in Texas.
Which I am sure is not news to anyone on this board.
...
I see a lot of guys bashing single crop plantings in the food plot forum. An I get it to some extent. We always want to provide a maximum array of options and create diversity. But I will admit, my food plots right now are roughly 70-80% corn every year.

The sole reason being available food in the winter months, Dec-Feb. A time that is lacking sufficient brows, and most other food sources have dried up. Most other parts of the year. The few deer we normally host 7-15 have more than enough natural options paired with the neighboring crops.

I guess in that scheme I am just looking to fill the lowest hole in the bucket

Each location, and even each property in a given county, can be unique...but they all have things in common, as well. Depending on the goal in mind and the other food available on the property, some single crop plantings make sense. Corn is one of them, if you have enough ground to produce plenty of ears, and if your primary concern is snow and ice that cover the ground. However, it is important to realize that "natural options" for northern deer, during the winter, means woody browse. Their gut actually changes over to process the buds of young trees and shrubs; if they didn't have access to corn for a month or two and you started providing it mid-winter, it could actually kill them. Standing corn is survival food for deer, but excellent thermal cover and a high stem count area of woody browse are habitat features that northern deer have evolved to count on during tough winters.

The lowest hole in the bucket is very much dependent on deer numbers. In fact, excessive deer numbers can be the single biggest limitation in some areas. The fecundity of deer, with little natural mortality and repeated mild winters, can be their own undoing. In a way, I feel sorry for Mr. Winkle...the problem he's trying to solve is tougher than most. Short of single-handedly stocking his community food pantry with protein, and pissing off his neighbors in the process, he's going to have to deal with high deer numbers. While it's not the worst problem to have, it makes reaching certain habitat and harvest goals more difficult. Growing unprotected fruit trees or harvesting large-antlered bucks, for example...and one of those is a noble pursuit.

 

[Reagan]

Each location, and even each property in a given county, can be unique...but they all have things in common, as well. Depending on the goal in mind and the other food available on the property, some single crop plantings make sense. Corn is one of them, if you have enough ground to produce plenty of ears, and if your primary concern is snow and ice that cover the ground. However, it is important to realize that "natural options" for northern deer, during the winter, means woody browse. Their gut actually changes over to process the buds of young trees and shrubs; if they didn't have access to corn for a month or two and you started providing it mid-winter, it could actually kill them. Standing corn is survival food for deer, but excellent thermal cover and a high stem count area of woody browse are habitat features that northern deer have evolved to count on during tough winters.

The lowest hole in the bucket is very much dependent on deer numbers. In fact, excessive deer numbers can be the single biggest limitation in some areas. The fecundity of deer, with little natural mortality and repeated mild winters, can be their own undoing. In a way, I feel sorry for Mr. Winkle...the problem he's trying to solve is tougher than most. Short of single-handedly stocking his community food pantry with protein, and pissing off his neighbors in the process, he's going to have to deal with high deer numbers. While it's not the worst problem to have, it makes reaching certain habitat and harvest goals more difficult. Growing unprotected fruit trees or harvesting large-antlered bucks, for example...and one of those is a noble pursuit.

If you have followed Mr Winkie's posting over the years, it is clear the antlers are his number 1 priority.

But he will troll, contradict himself, not listen to anyone and continue to fail in his goal.

"Browse lines are a high class problem." A completely laughable and yet a very sad statement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pacahunter]

My Waupaca county property now has very few deer sightings, but I still have an over population. I know that doesn't make any sense, but I'll explain. Like I said, I have pretty much eliminated all resident does from my property. I have gone from seeing 30 deer a sit to hardly a deer. However, since my neighborhood still has an insane population, I have herds that move through.
Just like an under population situation, when neighbors shoot everything, on a small property, I can't legitimately lower the population because the deer aren't full time residents on my property.
My food plots are always mowed to the ground, my regeneration is lacking, but I don't have routine doe shot opportunities like I use to.
I can not see a deer for a week, but than 15 show up in my plots, but leave. If I pop one off, I still have 14 deer using my property, but it's maybe once a week.
That's my experience at least. I only shot 4 does last year, which might seem like alot, but I really had to work for them. I also passed on does because I didn't want to hurt big buck opportunities (shot a mid 150s, during the rut).
In all honestly I haven't gained much removing all the resident does from my property. Regeneration is a little better, but I would still need a fence like bull to see great results.
To me, it sounds like bulls property is somewhere in the middle. We now have wolves, and a healthy bear population. Waupaca county is one of the top trophy producing counties there is we've always had a over population on a macro level, and still had trophy bucks. If every property owner waged war on the does like I did we would turn into Minnesota real quick.
It's very hard if not impossible, finding that perfect balance. Thank you for sharing the fence idea bull, it still might be something I might try.

 

[dogghr]

Like everything in life, its always so much easier to tell someone else what they need to do. And reducing herd population to drastic measures is tough for anyone especially if they have hunted in years of low deer numbers. And I'll repeat what I already said, if every person on here fenced an acre of land, I bet half would see overbrowsing of native flora, especially of prefered plants, is occuring on their property regardless of the so called browse lines.

 

[Bullwinkle]

My Waupaca county property now has very few deer sightings, but I still have an over population. I know that doesn't make any sense, but I'll explain. Like I said, I have pretty much eliminated all resident does from my property. I have gone from seeing 30 deer a sit to hardly a deer. However, since my neighborhood still has an insane population, I have herds that move through.
Just like an under population situation, when neighbors shoot everything, on a small property, I can't legitimately lower the population because the deer aren't full time residents on my property.
My food plots are always mowed to the ground, my regeneration is lacking, but I don't have routine doe shot opportunities like I use to.
I can not see a deer for a week, but than 15 show up in my plots, but leave. If I pop one off, I still have 14 deer using my property, but it's maybe once a week.
That's my experience at least. I only shot 4 does last year, which might seem like alot, but I really had to work for them. I also passed on does because I didn't want to hurt big buck opportunities (shot a mid 150s, during the rut).
In all honestly I haven't gained much removing all the resident does from my property. Regeneration is a little better, but I would still need a fence like bull to see great results.
To me, it sounds like bulls property is somewhere in the middle. We now have wolves, and a healthy bear population. Waupaca county is one of the top trophy producing counties there is we've always had a over population on a macro level, and still had trophy bucks. If every property owner waged war on the does like I did we would turn into Minnesota real quick.
It's very hard if not impossible, finding that perfect balance. Thank you for sharing the fence idea bull, it still might be something I might try.

Thanks for sharing. You've got a very tough problem

My buddy has the same problem. He took 40 does/year off his farm for 3-4 years. Deer kept moving in, he kept shooting. He made a difference on ratio but trained the deer to become nocturnal. Now instead of seeing 40 deer a sit he hardly sees deer but his plots get eaten at night

My goal is not to increase or decrease the population but maintain it. How I take the does (low pressure) is more important than the numbers I take to me.

What my buddy is doing is now he's quit shooting does to try to get the deer comfortable moving again during daylight hours and planting less food to make more completion. His consultant thinks it will take a generation or two of does before deer movement returns during the day

Earn a buck was great because everyone had to shoot one doe to get a buck tag. Spread out the pressure

 

[George]

Controlling an over population is just as complicated as promoting an under population. I am also a land owner in Waupaca county. I have attempted to shoot every single doe during every single hunting opportunity. I can and have eliminated every single doe from my property just to have a herd move in and just keep chowing. Than come hunting season comes, I literally shoot every doe, but the cycle continues.
The most promise I observed was the earn a buck years, but the governor outlawed it. I can only speculate to what extreme the DNR would have taken the population if EAB would have continued. It might have gone to levels the Minnesota guys used to complain about.
I can guarantee you leaving a queen doe won't fix bull's situation, if he really had a situation at all?
I am on many properties in Waupaca county, some places there is an insane overpopulation, some places the habitat is healthy. I've seen the drastic extremes in just a half mile. It sounds like bulls property might fit into that layout.

I don't think anyone could possibly understand the Dynamics of wi deer hunting if you don't live it. Bull doesn't consistently harvest old high scoring bucks because he doesn't have robust regeneration, it's because the old bucks aren't able to get old. I don't think someone from Iowa or Oklahoma could imagine just how many hunters are in the insanely popular areas of wi.
I hunted Iowa numerous times and have seen hunting get more popular in the area I hunted. Anyone who hunts that area will tell you the mega bucks aren't like they used to be, because they just aren't getting that old anymore.

I killed 1 or 2 mature bucks every year from 1995 to 2005 on 20 acres in Jackson county Michigan. At that time the local deer population probably exceeded 200/sq mile with no shortage of deer hunters and poachers. At the time my friends that controlled 240 to 400 acre farm tracts consistently killed 150" deer annually. Your guarantees ring hollow.

G

 

[Pacahunter]

My situation is similar to your friends but I have a different theory than u're friend and his consultant.
I don't think a deer is capable of remembering the pressure on my property 3 years ago, or last fall for that matter. I believe the neighborhood does aren't shifting their core home range directly onto my property. It's my opinion, my property doesn't have true resident does because I removed them. Evan though my habitat is just as good, or better than my neighbors, the does only visit my property to feed.
I believe your buddies assessment is right, that usually happens at night. I think it happens at night because it takes time for those does to actually reach my property from their bed.
I have a little theory, if I plant large plots over 3 acres, the frequency of doe use increases, and those does start bedding more on the property.
Regardless, i believe it's a slow process which I don't want. Everyone has different goals, mine is to shoot large mature bucks and not have habitat over run with invasive species. I'm getting consistent action with mature bucks, but the invasive species battle is a stalemate.

 

[Baker]

This thread makes me so happy I am not in Waupaca cty!!! It makes me appreciate even more the dream come true my farm is and the circumstances I get to work with.

 

[cutman]

This thread makes me so happy I am not in Waupaca cty!!! It makes me appreciate even more the dream come true my farm is and the circumstances I get to work with.

Me too.

 

[TrampledbyTurtles]

However, it is important to realize that "natural options" for northern deer, during the winter, means woody browse. Their gut actually changes over to process the buds of young trees and shrubs; if they didn't have access to corn for a month or two and you started providing it mid-winter, it could actually kill them. Standing corn is survival food for deer, but excellent thermal cover and a high stem count area of woody browse are habitat features that northern deer have evolved to count on during tough winters.

The lowest hole in the bucket is very much dependent on deer numbers. In fact, excessive deer numbers can be the single biggest limitation in some areas. The fecundity of deer, with little natural mortality and repeated mild winters, can be their own undoing.

Agree on both fronts,

The natural options I currently have on the property. Should on "most" years come close to meeting the needs of the resident deer (7-12) on the property during the winter months. The corn acts as a buffer, to protect against those years where deer numbers increase to over 25. Which I would say happens 1 out of 3 years. That is the one aspect of management I cannot control. Unless I just refused to plant any corn, and drive the deer further away from the safe zone of the property during the highest stress periods of time. This year we combined 200bu of leftover grain off of the 8ac plots. Some years. there is not a kernel to found.

That an the 175-200 pheasants we over winter would run out of food rather quickly. Considering they do not consume woody browse.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Me too.

You really don't know what you're missing Cut and Baker

I've hunted deer in -WI,MI, IA,TN, AR, MS,LA, GA, SC, AL, NC and TX

WI would be my #1, IA#2 then TX

Never hunted Il, OH or KY. Looked at land there, bet these would be great states too

SC would be dead last. Corn piles in pine plantations hunting tiny deer didn't do much for me (I was around pawleys lslamd and Charleston)

I liked LA but would rather duck hunt down there. The southern sit on food plots hunting didn't trill me much. I like the one-one woods stands better

In WI you have the awesome deer hunting culture, the Packers, local bars, old fashions, fish fries and an intense rut that is hard to explain. The deer are much less spooky and easier to bow hunt than in the south

Yes, land is broken up into small parcels and expensive. Thus the biggest management issue

 

[cutman]

If it's so good why are you constantly complaining? You like to start a thread --> ask for advice --> ignore advice --> wonder why things don't change --> proclaim that you live in the best deer hunting area in the world. It's like clock work.

Don't get me wrong: South Carolina has some atrocious game management laws and our fair share of renegade "hunters." But for all the talk you spout about your issues in your area of Wisconsin I'm perfectly happy to be 2000 miles away from you.

 

[Bullwinkle]

If it's so good why are you constantly complaining? You like to start a thread --> ask for advice --> ignore advice --> wonder why things don't change --> proclaim that you live in the best deer hunting area in the world. It's like clock work.

Don't get me wrong: South Carolina has some atrocious game management laws and our fair share of renegade "hunters." But for all the talk you spout about your issues in your area of Wisconsin I'm perfectly happy to be 2000 miles away from you.

I am not constantly complaining, I am constantly on a quest to improve my farm. Maybe I complained about a wolf or two or doe only season but that's about it. The rest is fun for me. I am not complaining about regen at all. Wait till you see what's comimg.

Yes I probably change things too much but since Sturgis set me on the path every year is getting better. I have about 10 more years of improving, the wheels are in motion and I can see what the end looks like. You guys challenged my me helped big time to get me where I am at. Thank you. I always like hearing the other side and yes I always didn't act to all your ideas nor will I, but I listened and considered them. You're in a completely different world than I am Cut. Not even close, it would be stupid for me to manage like you. Like there is no way I am pounding does. I'll build fences and plant norways to to get the habitat I want for the deer.

 

[Baker]

I am delighted you love Waupaca county as you do and certainly understand how [sometimes blindly ] passionate land ownership can be. Good for you. And your right I do not know what I am missing by not hunting Waupaca County. Never been there and highly unlikely I ever will hunt there.

We can have fun arguments about deer hunting culture, Saints vs Packers [ well that may not be as fun ] local bars or ranch margaritas, fish fries...you can catch fish in Wi. when it is frozen over?...and the quality of the rut. Without question I would win any argument on that one!!!

Where there is no argument in my mind is the quality of the circumstances I get to work with vs. your situation and the outcomes achieved. Bluntly, your circumstance, the challenges you have to deal with, the impact on the habitat,the structure and quality of your local deer herd, your plan, execution and results sound absolutely horrible to me. It turns me off.

Lets do a comparative:
I have no browse line-- What did you call your browse line; classy ? I didn't look back
My habitat has vigorous regen and I do annual TSI. Looks like a jungle---Yours?
I grow year round food plots to provide deer peak annual nutrition--You have some sort of a deer movement manipulation plan with plots.
I do everything I can to enhance the soil and improve habitat quality [ my concern now is earthworm population ] --I haven't seen any such mention in your posts
The herd on my property is below carrying capacity--You?
The herd I manage has about a 1/1 b/d ratio--yours?
The herd I manage has an age structure more typical of nature with a significant % of bucks 6 and older--yours?
I frequently love to still hunt when conditions are right and in fact is how I got my biggest buck ever. Super fun way to hunt--How do you hunt your farm?

I could go on. I wonder if you have ever really seen a well managed high quality deer property? I think I remember you hunting Giles Island. It's ok but IMO doesn't represent a very high level of management though it may be better than many commercially hunted places.

I've also had the opportunity to hunt around a bit and while it all bowls down to personal preference I will still place a high quality Rio Grande brush country hunt at the top of the list with no close second. I love my farm, but nothing compares to hunting along the Rio Grande.

All said I'm still hoping you get the buck of your dreams from your farm.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I am delighted you love Waupaca county as you do and certainly understand how [sometimes blindly ] passionate land ownership can be. Good for you. And your right I do not know what I am missing by not hunting Waupaca County. Never been there and highly unlikely I ever will hunt there.

We can have fun arguments about deer hunting culture, Saints vs Packers [ well that may not be as fun ] local bars or ranch margaritas, fish fries...you can catch fish in Wi. when it is frozen over?...and the quality of the rut. Without question I would win any argument on that one!!!

Where there is no argument in my mind is the quality of the circumstances I get to work with vs. your situation and the outcomes achieved. Bluntly, your circumstance, the challenges you have to deal with, the impact on the habitat,the structure and quality of your local deer herd, your plan, execution and results sound absolutely horrible to me. It turns me off.

Lets do a comparative:
I have no browse line-- What did you call your browse line; classy ? I didn't look back
My habitat has vigorous regen and I do annual TSI. Looks like a jungle---Yours?
I grow year round food plots to provide deer peak annual nutrition--You have some sort of a deer movement manipulation plan with plots.
I do everything I can to enhance the soil and improve habitat quality [ my concern now is earthworm population ] --I haven't seen any such mention in your posts
The herd on my property is below carrying capacity--You?
The herd I manage has about a 1/1 b/d ratio--yours?
The herd I manage has an age structure more typical of nature with a significant % of bucks 6 and older--yours?
I frequently love to still hunt when conditions are right and in fact is how I got my biggest buck ever. Super fun way to hunt--How do you hunt your farm?

I could go on. I wonder if you have ever really seen a well managed high quality deer property? I think I remember you hunting Giles Island. It's ok but IMO doesn't represent a very high level of management though it may be better than many commercially hunted places.

I've also had the opportunity to hunt around a bit and while it all bowls down to personal preference I will still place a high quality Rio Grande brush country hunt at the top of the list with no close second. I love my farm, but nothing compares to hunting along the Rio Grande.

All said I'm still hoping you get the buck of your dreams from your farm.

Your a good guy Baker, got a lot of respect for you but you're way above the rim to me. 1300 acres under high fence if I remember isn't in the same galaxy to what I'm dealing with so I agree with you

Part of it is where you are from. We catch trout in cold water clear streams with fly rods, you guys hand grab catfish under banks in muddy water. Done both, trout fishing lights me up more. That hand grabbing is a brutal sport

 

[Jason Broom]

Fishing and football notwithstanding, habitat in all locales comes complete with indicators. It really is "Amazing" what can be done to improve habitat...sometimes all it takes is keeping the excessive number of mouths away from it for one growing season. Other times, it takes a lot more effort, like starting hardwoods from nuts and caging them for years so they can reach for the sky, unmolested.

I have respect for anyone who puts in an effort to improve their land in any way, although I am continually puzzled by those who want to kill "big bucks", but won't be honest with themselves about that, or do what it takes to achieve that goal. I shot one of the biggest bucks of my life last year...haven't even bothered to cut the antlers off the skull yet. I'll probably get around to doing some kind of European mount with it, but who knows? I'd rather spend $750 planting and caging a bunch of mast-producing trees than paying for a shoulder mount. I've got pictures, memories and meat in the freezer. My main goals are to soak up the wonder of what the Lord hath wrought, while doing my part to honor Him in the process. It doesn't take a tape measure or 150" to do that.

 

[Baker]

Fishing and football notwithstanding, habitat in all locales comes complete with indicators. It really is "Amazing" what can be done to improve habitat...sometimes all it takes is keeping the excessive number of mouths away from it for one growing season. Other times, it takes a lot more effort, like starting hardwoods from nuts and caging them for years so they can reach for the sky, unmolested.

I have respect for anyone who puts in an effort to improve their land in any way, although I am continually puzzled by those who want to kill "big bucks", but won't be honest with themselves about that, or do what it takes to achieve that goal. I shot one of the biggest bucks of my life last year...haven't even bothered to cut the antlers off the skull yet. I'll probably get around to doing some kind of European mount with it, but who knows? I'd rather spend $750 planting and caging a bunch of mast-producing trees than paying for a shoulder mount. I've got pictures, memories and meat in the freezer. My main goals are to soak up the wonder of what the Lord hath wrought, while doing my part to honor Him in the process. It doesn't take a tape measure or 150" to do that.

Great post jason and I'd like to explore it a bit more and get yours and others thoughts. You mention 'indicators' a concept I've worked with a long time. D Gallow does a great job showing indicators of healthy habitat. I have always wanted to do a video entitled ' If you want quality deer you need butterflies' . Butterflies being one indicator of healthy habitat . I think a thing many of us struggle with in Bull's circumstance is the habitat destruction seemingly allowed for a focus on a 150" buck. You have made it clear you place little priority on antlers. Thats fair and I appreciate it completely.

To peal the 'antler value system ' onion back a bit I'll offer the perspective from which I manage.One of the things driving me the most now is to improve the quality of my soil. Much of my study, tactics and focus is on soil stewardship with the future goal to leave the soils on my farm vastly improved providing my children a wider range of options.

From there silva culture is prioritized to continually improve and upgrade the forest resource. Been doing this for decades now and it shows in the habitat.

Regarding the deer herd my passion has been to create as healthy a deer herd as possible. That is a function of density, ratio's, age structure, recruitment, nutritional plane and stress. I consider antlers one indicator of herd health. And in fact have seen the bell curve of antler sizes slowly improve over time. I've also seen weights, fawn survival, longevity and disease diminishment improve over time. I've found all that very rewarding.


I get amused with the whole QDM/TDM notion. Frankly I think thats just marketing gibberish promoted by QDMA to make their message more appealing to the masses.My experience is if you focus on the basics: age and nutrition, quality deer are produced and just as naturally their quality improves both as an animal and any particular appendages they may support. I proffer that a truly healthy herd is maintained on a very high nutritional plane, has a balanced b/d ratio, within carrying capacity, has a age structure with a significant number of deer [ bucks and does ] in the older age classes of 4 -10+. Interestingly that looks a lot like an unmolested 'naturally evolved' herd. To me that seems a worthy goal with, again, a by product being higher quality bucks to hunt. Antlers become the by product of the process and I for one have tremendous appreciation for the buck that can grow a giant set of antlers. They are beautifully rare and generally a result of quality circumstances.

So the question I ask is this; Why can't growing big bucks be celebrated simply for the joy of the process and an appreciation that they can be the by product of wise land and wildlife stewardship?