Amazing

[Bullwinkle]

The

Explains a lot. Buy bullets. Lots of bullets. Perhaps intensifying year round food will help also. What does your biologist say about this???

He wasn't shocked. He has this on all his fencing projects in Waupaca county. I toured some at 4/5 years. It's shocking. Hopefully I log this winter and it should get real interesting

The problem is Baker there is no easy solution

If I pound does they just keep moving in. Been there, done that. Neighbors were mad since they didn't have deer. My neighbors like shooting does so it works. If I don't the population levels out at roughly the same population. When I pound does I might as well forget about QDM, the pressure changes everything

I don't have many more deer than last year. In fact if I'd have to guess a few less but still healthy.

I think the biggest thing I could do is quit planting beans and corn. This keeps deer on my farm through the winter. This will move the problem to the neighbors and hurt the deer health

I think what I will do is keep taking every doe I can under low stress situations, keep planting beans and corn, consider more fencing projects where I have oak and need high stem areas, continue to remove low value trees and keep prime species and continue to put in 3-5K norways a year into the hardwoods.

I am also thinking about putting up some 1/2 acres fences where I want deer to bed. In my area you could do some neat things with fences to create long term habitat. It takes about 7 years to get the trees big enough not to be stunted by browsing.

 

[Reagan]

Earlier this year you wrote this.



"Sturgis is right- you're better off not doing this and having a reasonable population. Food plot strategy is huge in this. Right now I hardly have a deer on my farm. I will not till about July. It makes a difference"


So if your deer don't show up until July, what is eating your browse?


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[Bullwinkle]

I wrote about this before. Jeff doesn't recommend doing what I am doing with corn and beans. He wanted me only to plant 3-5 acres of a brassica grain mix on every plot

I do it because I like driving my tractor and it's a legal way to feed deer over the winter. This is where I am getting the browsing

Just spent a week at the farm I saw a deer here and there but not large numbers. Fawning so the does are not traveling much. I took another clover plot out so only down to 1 small alfalfa field. There is little for them. Plenty of farmers alfalfa though in the neighborhood

The deer will mainly be on my farm from August through March (when corn runs out).

 

[catscratch]

You may not be "seeing" the deer, but they are there. Browse grows incredibly quick in the spring. It's a lot like winter pruning of fruit trees; they look devastated when your done pruning but a month after green-up you can't even tell you did anything. If you didn't have a lot of deer it would be thicker outside the fence. Evidence says you have more summer deer than you think. You might try a data collection system different than just looking for deer for a week in the spring.
What is your goal with this place? For my place I want bigger bucks. I don't have an over population so I'm focused on "better" nutrition and letting certain bucks get older. My place is pretty simple. Your place seems frustrating. Too many deer one month, few deer the next, bucks used to be there in the summer but now they are only there during the fall, seems like a management nightmare.

 

[Kabic]

Every time Bull posts it is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

 

[Baker]

The

He wasn't shocked. He has this on all his fencing projects in Waupaca county. I toured some at 4/5 years. It's shocking. Hopefully I log this winter and it should get real interesting

The problem is Baker there is no easy solution

If I pound does they just keep moving in. Been there, done that. Neighbors were mad since they didn't have deer. My neighbors like shooting does so it works. If I don't the population levels out at roughly the same population. When I pound does I might as well forget about QDM, the pressure changes everything

I don't have many more deer than last year. In fact if I'd have to guess a few less but still healthy.

I think the biggest thing I could do is quit planting beans and corn. This keeps deer on my farm through the winter. This will move the problem to the neighbors and hurt the deer health

I think what I will do is keep taking every doe I can under low stress situations, keep planting beans and corn, consider more fencing projects where I have oak and need high stem areas, continue to remove low value trees and keep prime species and continue to put in 3-5K norways a year into the hardwoods.

I am also thinking about putting up some 1/2 acres fences where I want deer to bed. In my area you could do some neat things with fences to create long term habitat. It takes about 7 years to get the trees big enough not to be stunted by browsing.

Bull, I've come to believe that I have unfairly judged your decisions and strategies. I must confess that I often have a negative visceral reaction to many of your posts, your biologists thought processes and tactics and the outcomes you are experiencing. I realize these reactions come from my own history, experience and circumstance. Truth is I have never been to Waupaca County. My vision and goals are based on my circumstance and experience and I tend to compare others approach to mine. I've never managed a small property much less a small property surrounded by small properties with no management consensus. Heck the smallest property I have ever managed is my farm at 1350 acres but effectively 2500 acres when recognized it is combined with my neighbor and managed as one unit. And even with that scale I was very frustrated with the results we achieved until we wrapped a fence all the way around the property. I do not envy your situation at all.

So while I may perceive many of your tactics and concepts as misguided it is not my place to criticize . I hope you get that 150" buck which irrespective of how you manage your property should be a realistic goal.

 

[George]

Kill daughters, leave the matriarchal hierarchy intact, and bring more sunlight to the ground.

G

 

[Reagan]

If I pound does they just keep moving in. Been there, done that. Neighbors were mad since they didn't have deer. My neighbors like shooting does so it wor



When I pound does I might as well forget about QDM, the pressure changes everything

I have some questions Mr Winkle.

If you pound does they just keep moving in but your neighbors won't have any deer.

Do these deer move in by helicopter or can they jump completely over your neighbors property?



Isn't QDM about managing the deer population so it is best for the habitat? If you have too many deer (even though there will be none there until July) wouldn't "pounding" does be exactly what a QDM program would require?


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[Jason Broom]

Doing the right thing, for the right reasons, cannot be superseded by a quest for bucks with a certain amount of antler development. What is happening inside that fenced off area is a clue to your core problem, as well as what must be done to fix it. You are observing what you hope to see, yet ignoring the proof of your observations being inaccurate. It is daunting, the number of does and deer that you sometimes have to kill to lower the population, but if you cite that excuse for failure to do so, you are essentially ensuring you can never reach your management goals. That fence line is telling you there are too many deer on your property, RIGHT NOW, yet your focus is on feeding them during the winter. What your local herd needs is one hard winter without you subsidizing their needs...a massive winter kill would achieve what you are apparently reluctant to do with bullets. I'm not sure there is much anyone can offer that will help until you change your goals and your method of achieving them, but I wish you luck.

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[Kabic]

My personal opinion, Bull wants TDM not QDM...it is all about the 150 inch trophy.

 

[dogghr]

No question there is an overpopulation of deer in that area and needs reduction if prevention of irrepairable long term destruction is desired. What is important in the pic is not the growth seen, and not as much the over browse outside, but the fact the deer will choose the most important plants and destroy the chance of their growth. In my area that would be the prime hard mast trees of the whites and red oaks. That is why invasives, such a MFR in my area take over regeneration, leaving a lot of less deer worthy shade tolerant trees such as Maple, hickory, etc.
I can bet good money that if all that post on this forum did the same fencing that at least half of them would see the same drastic results. And Im not sure many of those posters would be willing to reduce their herd to the levels needed to prevent such.
I can help you Bull with your reduction needs tho, I can donate bear and coyote, and they will start the process for you.

 

[OkieKubota]

No question there is an overpopulation of deer in that area and needs reduction if prevention of irrepairable long term destruction is desired. What is important in the pic is not the growth seen, and not as much the over browse outside, but the fact the deer will choose the most important plants and destroy the chance of their growth. In my area that would be the prime hard mast trees of the whites and red oaks. That is why invasives, such a MFR in my area take over regeneration, leaving a lot of less deer worthy shade tolerant trees such as Maple, hickory, etc.
I can bet good money that if all that post on this forum did the same fencing that at least half of them would see the same drastic results. And Im not sure many of those posters would be willing to reduce their herd to the levels needed to prevent such.
I can help you Bull with your reduction needs tho, I can donate bear and coyote, and they will start the process for you.

Pretty sure my inside the fence and outside the fence would look the same...really low deer numbers will do that but the bonus is that the deer that are left grow to be real brutes because they get much better nutrition with all of the food available to the few we have using our place...if you reduce the numbers down greatly you have a much better chance of growing that 150" deer...

 

[dogghr]

Pretty sure my inside the fence and outside the fence would look the same...really low deer numbers will do that but the bonus is that the deer that are left grow to be real brutes because they get much better nutrition with all of the food available to the few we have using our place...if you reduce the numbers down greatly you have a much better chance of growing that 150" deer...

Yea you and your pic were in my mind as I typed that. Good example of adequate numbers. Many areas would show over browse , maybe not to that extreme. I bet many would be surprised. I'd even like to see diff even in low deer number areas as yours. It's not real easy to reduce numbers as ours have been in that effort for years. Depends on the type of land to some extent. Our bow only counties are good example, poor soils, no ag, plenty of mature hard mast producers, limited population of deer, and consistant 150 trophy bucks available. But still see browse lines there also.

 

[George]

It's a numbers game, reduce the population and you also reduce the number of 150" deer.

G

 

[OkieKubota]

It's a numbers game, reduce the population and you also reduce the number of 150" deer.

G

Not necessarily...home 10 is a great example. Deer out the wazoo everywhere. Small body weights of dressed bucks about 100# and racks of 100# or less. Browse lines everywhere. I have seen as many as 65 in a sitting in late rifle season on 10 acres...# of 150's ever killed in this area = 0 by either us or neighbors (I know all of them).

Whitetail Hollow - very, very few deer. Camera surveys show very low usage during green up and summer months. Right now only getting pics of 2 does and 1 buck with any consultancy and over 2 weeks time seeing approximately 6 different deer in camera but only once over that time frame. White oaks regen is absolutely amazing and is the reason I am at war with hickory. Have not killed any does off this property but buck weights are ranging from 150 - 165 dressed weights and racks are ranging from 135 - 170" being the average on mature deer (we have killed 152" and 165" and 2 others of 135 and 140" and trail cams show larger deer we haven't gotten). Kind of like the big woods bucks of Canada...low, low numbers but larger racked bucks....

Kind of like overstocked ponds have smaller fish....

 

[badgerfowl]

No question there is an overpopulation of deer in that area and needs reduction if prevention of irrepairable long term destruction is desired. What is important in the pic is not the growth seen, and not as much the over browse outside, but the fact the deer will choose the most important plants and destroy the chance of their growth. In my area that would be the prime hard mast trees of the whites and red oaks. That is why invasives, such a MFR in my area take over regeneration, leaving a lot of less deer worthy shade tolerant trees such as Maple, hickory, etc.
I can bet good money that if all that post on this forum did the same fencing that at least half of them would see the same drastic results. And Im not sure many of those posters would be willing to reduce their herd to the levels needed to prevent such.
I can help you Bull with your reduction needs tho, I can donate bear and coyote, and they will start the process for you.

Pretty sure Bull already has a good deer reducer...Wolves.

 

[dogghr]

It's a numbers game, reduce the population and you also reduce the number of 150" deer.

G

In your experience, do you think that game is more playable in ag land where more food is available to sustain a false high poplulation?

Pretty sure Bull already has a good deer reducer...Wolves.

Oh I was thinking that but didn't say so. I do get kick out of those who don't want to control numbers then complain of natures way of reduction whether it be natural disaster or predator. That's not directed at Bull, but hunters in general. In a way we can all contribute to a false carrying capacity by way of supplemental feeding or food plots or even heavy ag areas. Just the way it is. What he does with his place is not my concern but many of the issues brought up here in some ways affect us all and our choices.

 

[Bullwinkle]

150" in my neighborhood is not an issue. Now me picking the right stand on the right day, that's been a problem. Deer health is not as well. Enough Ag and guys planting or feeding to keep the population up. It's been like this for 20+ years for sure. Yes you can't regen an oak but there is enough for the deer to thrive

If we have a population decline it will be because of predators or disease imo.

Guys, yes we don't have great regen but make no mistake about it, Waupaca county is a awesome place to be if you like deer hunting. Browse lines are a high class problem imo

 

[OkieKubota]

150" in my neighborhood is not an issue. Now me picking the right stand on the right day, that's been a problem. Deer health is not as well. Enough Ag and guys planting or feeding to keep the population up. It's been like this for 20+ years for sure. Yes you can't regen an oak but there is enough for the deer to thrive

If we have a population decline it will be because of predators or disease imo.

Guys, yes we don't have great regen but make no mistake about it, Waupaca county is a awesome place to be if you like deer hunting. Browse lines are a high class problem imo

So this is "high class"? I don't think so...Note the browse lines...

Bull - you have all these "guest" and yourself hunting your magnificent property in Waupaca "by God" county Wisconsin....law of averages states you guys should be killing 150" (or better...I would hope better) deer on a fairly regular basis...if this is not true then something is very wrong...


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[Jason Broom]

It's important to leave the 150" comments out of the equation. If you've got 6' high hard browse lines, and virtually zero natural regeneration of key indicator species, then you have either too many deer or not enough year 'round nutrition. Saying you have enough ag in the area to "keep the population up" misses the point entirely! Winter browse pressure that precludes any type of regeneration is telling you the population is "up" too much already.

If your goal is healthier habitat...yer doin' it wrong. Some guys (cough - Native Hunter) could have a TON of deer on his property, thanks to the incredible year 'round food sources (not corn n' beans) that he is providing. You have a hard time seeing much evidence of browse on ANY plant, because of the abundance of such available. He has the latitude to harvest does or not harvest does, because his habitat is remarkably healthy. From what you're showing in this picture, and describing in your posts, you want healthier habitat but aren't willing to do what it takes to achieve it. I'm sure you can find plenty of folks to come out and help you lower the head count, if you really want to...but your main goal is that 150" buck, right? Priorities...