A Soil Test

[Mennoniteman]

dgallow
I'd be real interested to see what the NWSG and forbs can do in your soils! That is where I've seen the biggest soil changes for the least input!
CnC
I’d like to be able to start working on the subsoil now. I did have a little NWSG starting to creep into the field last summer. Maybe I’ll see more appear this year.
CnC
Long term I'm looking for some NWSG to come along and put down roots....

History. Soil ph 5.5, CEC 2.7, Organic matter 1.9%. I had a DNR forester check out the property before and he told me that nothing would grow because this field was a frost bowl. But I have faith. This field started with sweet fern, blueberries and something that looked like a brillo pad. I had a guy disc it up and planted Ed Spinnazola's Meadow mix 2 years in a row. Droughts both years. Not much, but a very little big Bluestem, maybe 2 or 3 Cave in Rock, don't laugh. The blueberries came back strong. I finally got some equipment and avoided the big blue. Last year I planted sudangrass, for root mass with buckwheat. I never had to mow, because somebody was nibbling on it. I did lime (finally) and planted rye and rape last August. Naturally, no rain for weeks. I picked up a disc and planted wheat 9/26 mostly because I had a new toy. I was amazed by the spring regrowth. Cool weather and rain. I planted Timothy, Buckwheat, Sudangrass and Arvika peas 6/7.

Looks like a beach again. No rain again, timing. But I have some germination today. Onward.

Then I found this site.

Now back to the post. When I saw your soil Crimson, I was blown away. Kinda like when I went to see Joel Salatin.

My little bit of big blue does not stand in winter. If I go to NWSG, how does that interact with cereals? Roll the grasses?

How do you plan to work on the subsoil?

Do you, or anybody know anything about bicolor lespedeza?

One last one for now, I will not be using any herbicides. I am planning on keeping the ground covered, healing and growing.

I am waiting.

I totally get what CNC is saying about the value of diversity and the soil building properties of different plants and I agree with everything he says, I love to have diversity in my plots. But there's one thing I won't ever plant; NWSG. This is a deer forum, and deer rarely ever eat grass. I've been studying deer feeding habits for many years and one thing is very evident, the more grass component in an area, the less it gets grazed. My attitude is I've enough volunteer grass to get rid of without planting any. Grass in clover is like mice, you can't have just a few, it'll take over and choke out the clover if you let it. I do my soil building with small grains, tremendous root structure and om, it'll usually outgrow heavy grazing pressure and deer like it green or ripe. If overgrazing is a problem plant rye. Thumbs up on the no-herbicide until your soil is in shape. Thumbs down on the discing, Discing is the same as herbicide on poor soil. Try throw and mow?

 

[Bowman]

I will only disc a new field now since I will not use herbicides. Nothing further on herbicides. I acquired the disc before I got on this site and figured that I needed it. Before, I contracted out field work, now I have some equipment.

I am with you. I have a field that I took down some trees and will have to leave alone, they got hung up, because of oak wilt. Last year's rye has come back great in that field and is dropping seeds. I will broadcast something for the fall and roll or mow.

Last year, no rain (almost as usual) and my rye and rape were doing nothing, so I did disc and plant wheat in another field. Best ever this spring.

General plan is to cover the ground and have something always growing.

One question, I have another field that is not planted yet, behind schedule, that has a ton of rocks. Plenty removed by hand. Any suggestions? Problem is that this field has the best numbers according to the soil test.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I will only disc a new field now since I will not use herbicides. Nothing further on herbicides. I acquired the disc before I got on this site and figured that I needed it. Before, I contracted out field work, now I have some equipment.

I am with you. I have a field that I took down some trees and will have to leave alone, they got hung up, because of oak wilt. Last year's rye has come back great in that field and is dropping seeds. I will broadcast something for the fall and roll or mow.

Last year, no rain (almost as usual) and my rye and rape were doing nothing, so I did disc and plant wheat in another field. Best ever this spring.

General plan is to cover the ground and have something always growing.

One question, I have another field that is not planted yet, behind schedule, that has a ton of rocks. Plenty removed by hand. Any suggestions? Problem is that this field has the best numbers according to the soil test.

I'd say keep picking the rocks as you drum up some motivation and seed small grain asap. When I'm faced with bare dirt I drill oats\wheat. You buy it at the feedmill as animal feed for $12-14 a hundred lb. I get grain growing before I spend much money on fert and lime, roots in the ground keep the expensive stuff from leaching away. Small grain starts in almost any season, is the gateway to many other green things such as clover growing, and the straw generated is the backbone for throw n mow. You can hardly do a real throw n mow with most broadleaf plantings because they just disappear. Have you researched the LC mix food plot system? It works well on marginal soils, gives deer food almost year round.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I’m shooting for roughly 1/3 grass….1/3 broadleaf……and 1/3 legume…..What it really boils down to with the grass component is supplying carbon to the soil. Grasses tend to be your high C:N ratio plants. You’re not gonna supply that to the soil with plants like clover. I believe the reason clover fields become overwhelmed with grasses under our past management practices of clover monocultures is because the soil is starving for carbon and simply trying to compensate. There’s also likely an excess amount of free nitrogen. Remember, clover is a legume that fuels other plants….It is inherently made to grow alongside of other plants. My goal is to use my white clovers as a companion crop…….

Again though with my individual situation…….It doesn’t bother me to have a certain percentage of plant species in my field during the summer that the deer do not eat if those species are benefiting the soil….it’s really even better if there’s a component that they don’t eat….it insures me of producing biomass no matter how intense the browsing pressure. With such a vibrant deer population around me….it makes little difference whether or not my 2 acre plot is maximizing food output or splitting it between food and soil building during the summer months. It’s just minute when looking at the bigger picture.

There’s a number of summer grass specie that you could grow to supply the type of deep rooted, high carbon biomass we’re talking about…….Things like milo or sudan sorghum are grass species that could fill that niche. It doesn’t really do me any more good to use a few of those though than to just grow native warm season grasses like big blue stem, little blue stem, indian grass, etc…..My summer goals are #1) Soil Building….. #2) continued deer attraction……The winter months are when I’m wanting to maximize food output…

 

[rlb165]

I totally get what CNC is saying about the value of diversity and the soil building properties of different plants and I agree with everything he says, I love to have diversity in my plots. But there's one thing I won't ever plant; NWSG. This is a deer forum, and deer rarely ever eat grass. I've been studying deer feeding habits for many years and one thing is very evident, the more grass component in an area, the less it gets grazed. My attitude is I've enough volunteer grass to get rid of without planting any. Grass in clover is like mice, you can't have just a few, it'll take over and choke out the clover if you let it. I do my soil building with small grains, tremendous root structure and om, it'll usually outgrow heavy grazing pressure and deer like it green or ripe. If overgrazing is a problem plant rye....

Just speaking from my very limited personal experience, but I couldn't agree more.
Years ago I planted a 1 1/2 acre plot of NWSG. Big Bluestem, Little Bluestem and Indian Grass. It took it 2 or 3 years to get established, and I spent a lot of time trying to keep weeds at bay during that time. The Big Bluestem eventually got up to about 7 feet tall, Indian Grass about 5~6 feet, and the Little Bluestem got up to around waist high. During the summer, it all looked pretty cool. In the wintertime however, all that tall grass just layed over into a nasty tangled mess that was difficult to walk through. I could see it being good cover for things like rabbit and quail, but as far as I could tell, it was worse than useless for deer, at least during much of our hunting season.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I believe I could change y’alls opinions of NWSG and deer if I could take you on a tour of a southern quail hunting plantation. The deer on some of those properties are thick as fleas on a dog’s back. You can literally walk around and jump them like rabbits out of the native grass understory. These places hold some of the highest deer populations in the whole state of Alabama. NWSG is a vital part of a well-rounded habitat plan. It offers the deer ideal cover. I assure you that it’s not a useless plant for deer.

Now, that being said……it may not be something that everyone wants to have growing in their food plots. I’m good with it though for the reasons I previously stated. I plan to transition to cereal grains in the fall anyways and they simply offer me a low maintenance grass component to my summer mix for soil building on my small acreage plot.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

To give you an example of what is really important in deer management……..I blood tracked for one of these plantations last year where they have around 4500 acres that is all managed the way I’m describing with a NWSG dominated understory intermixed with forbs and legumes. They didn’t even have any food plots planted…..yet the hunter I was tracking for told me he had seen over 50 deer that evening alone.



The habitat is what supports deer herds….not 1 acre food plots here and there.

 

[rlb165]

Maybe it's a regional thing, and NWSG's don't lay down in the winter in the South like mine did here in Central Ky. Also, I can see that they would make excellent fawning cover. And, I get that their roots go really, really, really deep and mine nutrients. But, the little patch I grew just seemed anything but low maintenance, and the few deer I had here at the time seemed to avoid it, at least during cold weather. Admittedly, this was before I knew about the concept of mowing trails through dense cover, so that would be part of the plan if I were trying NWSG's again.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I guess we likely have different seed banks on disturbed soil but I have a lot of NWSG growing on my property that has simply established on its on. The NWSG on these quail plantations are not anything that was planted either in most situations. They are simply maintained through fire.

I’m not saying to go out and buy NWSG and try to plant it in your plot…..that’s not what I’m doing or advocating in this discussion. I’m saying that the natural succession of rebuilding soil may likely lead many to some type of native grass specie. If I have these “bunch” type grasses move into my field on their own over time…..I’m good with that. I need a summer grass component of some kind and these bunch grasses are far better on several levels than something like crabgrass that I’ve had to grow in the beginning years. Yes, I could mix in milo or something…..but what does ½ acre worth of milo really do for me in a situation like I’ve been describing?? It’s pretty insignificant from a food perspective.



Another way of looking at the bigger concept of what I’m trying to describe to you is that I have faith in just turning things over to Mother Nature during the summer months and allowing her to continue the rebuilding of my soil with the plants she sees fit…..while I simply help the process along with nutrient amendments and the addition of clovers. It's pretty much the exact same thing the Japanese farmer was doing in his fruit orchards. The fact that the specie composition changes over time tells us that there’s a process taking place…..Who am I to think I have a better process??? Everyone is now talking about how we are mimicking this natural blueprint…..Well, if the blueprint is so perfect…..then why would the plant species nature uses within that blueprint not be perfect as well. Haven’t they been tested and shaped by thousands and thousands of years of natural selection?? Survival of the fittest???? If I plant a crop plant beside a “weed’ plant……which will likely outcompete the other???..... Then which is the superior plant under those conditions??

Again, as I’ve said before…..keep that in some perspective. That doesn’t mean to let your property become a privet hedge patch or something because that’s what it naturally became.

 

[Bowman]

I'd say keep picking the rocks as you drum up some motivation and seed small grain asap. When I'm faced with bare dirt I drill oats\wheat. You buy it at the feedmill as animal feed for $12-14 a hundred lb. I get grain growing before I spend much money on fert and lime, roots in the ground keep the expensive stuff from leaching away. Small grain starts in almost any season, is the gateway to many other green things such as clover growing, and the straw generated is the backbone for throw n mow. You can hardly do a real throw n mow with most broadleaf plantings because they just disappear. Have you researched the LC mix food plot system? It works well on marginal soils, gives deer food almost year round.

I will continue clearing the rocks. I already purchased seed that I can plant late July, early August since I missed the earlier date. Last year, I broadcast rye and wheat into different plots that did not do well because of a lack of rain. Both plants grew last year and very well (my opinion) this spring. I will be planting into the standing rye. I have started to research the LC mix and am already planning for next year. I want to remove the rocks so I can mow or roll.
I have an AgriFab spreader. Last year, I must have taken it out when the plot was wet. The fertilizer compacted and bent the agitators. Any suggestions for future lime and fertilizer applications?

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Look, I know I’m getting deep with some of these discussions and that may seem to make things complicated…..but when all is said and done…..I’m really just growing what most would consider a weedy clover patch. I think many folks will find that given the right growing conditions, white clover can hold its own just fine. It’s the growing conditions that we create that often keep it from thriving……..The clover you see in the pic was planted 3 years ago and has held in there in patches even though conditions were very poor. Now that I have the soil in much better condition….its able to thrive like the patch you see in the foreground. I will reseed this fall and I expect the white clover to really stick this time.



Another time lapse of the last 3 weeks after mowing………

 

[Bowman]

Green is good. That last one really simplified it. I have no doubt.

 

[Kabic]

Weedy clover patch I can understand. ..frost seeded last year sorghum plot and let stuff grow

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

This will really show itself more as the broadleafs in my field continue to emerge but look at my field now as in comparison to when I first started……This pic was taken at the end of my first summer. I believe this would have been around five years ago. It was dominated by crabgrass because of the soil conditions…..Heck, I'm not too far from having this much growth out of my field already in only 3 weeks now and its FAR more diverse even though some crabgrass still lingers. Also notice how badly the “crop” plants struggled. I had actually added a good bit of N to that EW screen I was attempting to grow…….

The very first summer crop of biomass I added to the field………

 

[Mennoniteman]

I will continue clearing the rocks. I already purchased seed that I can plant late July, early August since I missed the earlier date. Last year, I broadcast rye and wheat into different plots that did not do well because of a lack of rain. Both plants grew last year and very well (my opinion) this spring. I will be planting into the standing rye. I have started to research the LC mix and am already planning for next year. I want to remove the rocks so I can mow or roll.
I have an AgriFab spreader. Last year, I must have taken it out when the plot was wet. The fertilizer compacted and bent the agitators. Any suggestions for future lime and fertilizer applications?

A three point spinner spreader works best for fertilizer and they are not expensive. Powdered lime will only go through the spinner if you put a bag of fertilizer in first and then alternate every bag. You can spin pellet lime but that stuff is expensive. You can rent a lime buggy at the local feed coop and pull it with your pickup. Or you can spread it by hand. Wear old clothes and stay up wind.

 

[rlb165]

Look, I know I’m getting deep with some of these discussions and that may seem to make things complicated…..but when all is said and done…..I’m really just growing what most would consider a weedy clover patch....

Weedy clover patch is my middle name. As far as you getting deep/complicated in these discussions...other than my family, this habitat stuff is pretty much what I live for.
Deer numbers here plummeted around the turn of the century. (Edit: I'm talking about the most recent turn of the century, not the 1900 one). It took Years to get the herd back enough for hunting to be enjoyable, and to be honest, I'm obsessed with learning and doing as much as I can to keep deer around. So PLEASE, by all means, get as deep and complicated as you wish.

 

[shawn cox]

Specie #10: Florida Pusley

This is a succulent little ground cover specie. It gets readily browsed by the local rabbits but I’m not 100% sure if the deer are browsing it or not. It has a lot of flowers which means it will have some kind of beneficial insects associated with it. That’s something I notice about a natural system…..there are LOTS of flowering species present. That tells me that beneficials must be a pretty important cog in the wheel if the plant world is putting out such a big call to bring them in.

I find it funny that you posted about Florida Pursley. I just went out Saturday to check on some places it grows good on my property to see how it was doing. The deer eat it really good on my place especially during late summer.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Weedy clover patch is my middle name. As far as you getting deep/complicated in these discussions...other than my family, this habitat stuff is pretty much what I live for.
Deer numbers here plummeted around the turn of the century. (Edit: I'm talking about the most recent turn of the century, not the 1900 one). It took Years to get the herd back enough for hunting to be enjoyable, and to be honest, I'm obsessed with learning and doing as much as I can to keep deer around. So PLEASE, by all means, get as deep and complicated as you wish.

Something to keep in mind about anything I say…….


This is all one long running experiment for me…..and it continues to be one now. I’m posting stuff to stimulate thought in others…..not necessarily to show you “the right way” or something of that nature. I’m still figuring things out myself. There may be some things I do now that I look back 4 or 5 years from now and wish I would have done differently. There are already things now that I can look back and would have changed about the last 5 years. Some things I do are just for the sake of experimenting to see what will happen doing this or that…even though they may fly in face of traditional schools of thought. These are just my current perceptions and ponderings….so for sure don’t take any of it as the gospel. Learn the principles and then use your own eyes to decide for yourself what works for you. Everyone is dealing with a different set of unique variables that will require you to tailor what you’re doing to those variables.

 

[rlb165]

Something to keep in mind about anything I say…….


This is all one long running experiment for me…..and it continues to be one now. I’m posting stuff to stimulate thought in others…..not necessarily to show you “the right way” or something of that nature. I’m still figuring things out myself. There may be some things I do now that I look back 4 or 5 years from now and wish I would have done differently. There are already things now that I can look back and would have changed about the last 5 years. Some things I do are just for the sake of experimenting to see what will happen doing this or that…even though they may fly in face of traditional schools of thought. These are just my current perceptions and ponderings….so for sure don’t take any of it as the gospel. Learn the principles and then use your own eyes to decide for yourself what works for you. Everyone is dealing with a different set of unique variables that will require you to tailor what you’re doing to those variables.

I get and appreciate what you're saying. After you explained that you were talking about NWSG's already in your seed bank, I felt like I was back on the same page as you. Also, there is some Indian Grass in our seed bank here. We logged in 2014, and in some areas we had Indian Grass come up just from having logs skidded across the surface of our fields. That's about as close to Mr. Fukuoka's do-nothing approach as I can think of...

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Specie #11: Bermuda Grass

This field was a horse pasture when I originally bought the property. This Bermuda is still hanging in there from back in those days despite all the spraying and tilling over the years. I’m not sure what I’m gonna do about it long term yet. For now I’m just letting it go.