A Soil Test

[Crimson n' Camo]

A lush salad bar of summer vegetation is just beginning to burst through the rye now. All kinds of stuff in there representing each……grass, broadleaf, and legume. Lots of browsing taking place on the tender, young shoots too. I’m really happy with how things are transitioning…..gonna pour the clovers to it this fall…….

 

[Turkish]

I'm trying hard to implement the same and have been for about 3 years. About 75% of my attempts have resulted in a failed stand. I mostly battle crop failures that result in having nothing to mow on top of the seed. I'm thinking I could stand to use more N to make more biomass.

I feel like I'm hurting the soil more than disking would.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

One of the most common question folks ask me is…..”What type of summer crops do recommend I use for my T&M plots?”



The vast majority of the time I try to answer the question by explaining that if they have small acreage plots with soil that’s in very poor condition….. then the first step is not to concern yourself with buckwheat, sunflowers, cow peas, etc…etc…..The much more important goal in the beginning is to produce biomass and you can’t do that will a plant that’s gonna either A) struggle in the harsh conditions….or B) get eaten to nub……..You’ll end up 3-4 years down the road and still not any farther along than you were in year one.


The problem is that when folks have it in their mind to do something a certain way then they don’t want to hear you tell them to do something different…..even if they are listening to what you say…..they still don’t really "hear" you. If you are changing over to a T&M method, then you’re doing so as part of a long term soil rebuilding strategy…..It’s not just a matter of changing how we’re planting a seed. If you want to turn your plot around then the first goal is to get some kind of biomass growing and cover the soil. If crabgrass is the best choice for accomplishing that initial goal then so be it. It’s what gets us from step one to step two…….Once you’ve got your soil turned around and in better shape…THEN you can try growing more finicky plants that receive heavier browsing pressure. The soil and plants have to be productive and resilient enough to feed the animals AND produce biomass if gains are to be seen.

 

[LetThemGrow]

Inspirational journey that has made me change things I do. Haven't tilled a plot for 2 years....thanks to CnC!

 

[cutman]

Well here's step one on my journey. It's been disked for hopefully the last time. I spread 200 lb of 15-0-15, disked, cultipacked, broadcast 40 lb of proso millet, then cultipacked again.

This plot got 5.6" of rain last week, and all that moisture is already gone.

If deer eat this millet I'm going to either convert it to a perpetual chufa plot or just give up on it and let nature take its course.


Sent from my iPhone using Deer Hunter Forum

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Here’s what I would do if I were starting all over again and I was looking at that field of sand again…..



1) I’d do a soil test and add P&K according to the test. I’d retest every 6 months for the first couple of years and correct P&K levels according to test each time. This will also start giving you an idea of how your soil is changing over time……for example, you’ll have a good idea of how fast K is leaching away.

2) I’d start adding lime in small doses…..start small and frequent in the beginning and move to larger doses less frequently as OM builds. For example….for the first 2 years you might add 500 lbs/ac of lime after 6 months….another 500 after a year…..another 500 after 18 months and then move to 2000 lbs year 2-3…..then maybe not again for another 3 years……then maybe not again for 5 years…..and so on. Something of that nature……You need to start correcting the Ca issues....building it up as the soil builds.

3) I’d add 50 lbs/ac of 34-0-0…. or whatever N source you have….every 6-8 weeks around the clock at first. I’d go with 6 weeks in the beginning…..cutting back over time as the field becomes more productive and starts producing some N on its own. Start adding clovers, vetches, etc as soil becomes more balanced and productive. I may go with 100 lbs/ac of N in the fall to push cereal rye growth to keep up with browsing.

4) If your field has a lot of bare dirt showing right now then go buy some millet and start dragging it in. Go heavy on the seeding rate. In the fall I'd go with cereal rye and heavy on the rate as well until things turn around. We’ve got to grow something to make hay and put down roots to get ourselves out of the hole.

 

[Turkish]

One of the most common question folks ask me is…..”What type of summer crops do recommend I use for my T&M plots?”

What about for fall plots? These have been my more frustrating failures.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

What about for fall plots? These have been my more frustrating failures.

I’d use cereal rye as a base……mixing in additional components as the soil improves and becomes more “conditioned”. Go with heavier seeding rates in the beginning if you need to. You need to do one of two things though. You either need to start in the spring pampering a summer crop of thatch with soil amendments like talked about so that you can cover your rye seed with it in the fall…….or you need to go ahead and initially disk the field in the fall to get that first heavy stand of rye established. Part of getting that rye crop to thrive is by adding the soil amendments like previously talked about. Don’t skimp on that crop of biomass because its what you’re gonna build off of.

Grow off as much as you can off of that rye crop in the spring……cover the soil with it….and then begin to get another crop of biomass going right in behind it. You need to make your #1 goal to produce biomass until you’ve recycled several good crops of it. Folks get too hung up on trying to do it with buckwheat or sunn hemp or whatever…..that’s all good in some situations….. but if in the end you don’t end up with the biomass we need….then you’re just not changing anything from an OM perspective.

 

[Turkish]

I guess you've described me. I was under the impression buckwheat was one of the more foolproof and hardy options there was for adding biomass. I appreciate your candor, saying that may not be true.

I'm in the loess hill region of SW MS, using old cattle pastures -- mostly bahiagrass. The best results I had were the first fall in a new spot with a relatively thick stand of dead Bahia. This summer was my first try with buckwheat and my first try at summer plots, period. From an earthworm count, the dirt seems decent. A little acidic.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I guess you've described me. I was under the impression buckwheat was one of the more foolproof and hardy options there was for adding biomass. I appreciate your candor, saying that may not be true.

I'm in the loess hill region of SW MS, using old cattle pastures -- mostly bahiagrass. The best results I had were the first fall in a new spot with a relatively thick stand of dead Bahia. This summer was my first try with buckwheat and my first try at summer plots, period.

When considering plants for the purpose of biomass and building OM…they’re not all the same. Take a succulent little stalk of clover for example. When it dies….how much plant matter is left over and how long will it take it to decay?? Not much and not very long, right? Now think about a stalk of milo in comparison. When it dries out you still have a very woody stalk of plant matter that’ll take a matter of months to decay.


One of the reasons for growing a balanced mix of grasses, broadleafs and legumes is because it gives you a nice ratio of plants that will decay short term and other that’ll decay over the long term. To BUILD organic matter then you’re gonna have to get that long term OM component going. You’re likely gonna get that through the grass family. I would go heavy on the grasses in the beginning and then transition to a more balanced mix of broadleafs and legumes added in. Legumes help bring N into the cycle which helps fuel the process.

 

[John Barnes]

I wish I'd read your comment about crabgrass awhile ago. I have a little section of plot that has failed each of the past two years due to a lack of thatch. Likely more due to bad timing on my part, rather than super poor soil. And I just did it again, broadcasting sunflowers in an attempt to get something growing before the crabgrass germinates. Unfortunately the birds have eaten it all before it had a chance to come up due to lack of thatch.

I just realized within the last couple of days that I need to let the crabgrass come up and get tall enough so I can then do a proper spray, broadcast, and mow. I'm thinking turnips, radishes, and red clover around the first of August. All have grown well for me before on my soil, and won't need a ton of thatch covering it.

Thanks again for all the info you've shared!

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I wish I'd read your comment about crabgrass awhile ago. I have a little section of plot that has failed each of the past two years due to a lack of thatch. Likely more due to bad timing on my part, rather than super poor soil. And I just did it again, broadcasting sunflowers in an attempt to get something growing before the crabgrass germinates. Unfortunately the birds have eaten it all before it had a chance to come up due to lack of thatch.

I just realized within the last couple of days that I need to let the crabgrass come up and get tall enough so I can then do a proper spray, broadcast, and mow. I'm thinking turnips, radishes, and red clover around the first of August. All have grown well for me before on my soil, and won't need a ton of thatch covering it.

Thanks again for all the info you've shared!

Go ahead and fertilize it and lime if needed. Even though it may just be crabgrass and "weeds", you still don’t want it to struggle because its N deficient or something of that nature. Allow it to thrive and produce as much biomass as you can get out of it.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Poor man’s sunn hemp…..aka pokeweed…..

Stalks from last year…..long term OM……microbial food source……..

Deer food source.......

 

[Baker]

Great discussion!

 

[dogghr]

Poor man’s sunn hemp…..aka pokeweed…..

Stalks from last year…..long term OM……microbial food source……..

Deer food source.......

Yep my deer love that stuff and when it berries, so do the birds and bear. I jumped a momma and her three cubs in a thicket of mine last year. They were just camped out in there living the good life. Glad you have this thread going Crimson, it was a fun ride first time and still a good one. Many newbys have not seen or heard of your results. Thanks.

 

[shawn cox]

Crimson n Camo was the one responsible for getting me into the throw n mow. My clover plots are doing really well and we have had some dry weather. I hope over time my plots will build the om. To me the most important factor on the throw n mow is to make sure your plot has enough growth in it whether it be weeds or a cereal grain to provide a good covering of thatch so that when the rain comes the seeds will stay moist and if no rain comes for several days it doesn't bake the ground and dry it out or a windy day will dry it out also. With a good thatch I have even grown AWP and LabLab this way.

 

[Jason Broom]

It really is a pleasure to see CnC sharing his experiences again. It takes time and attention to detail for him to bring this information to the masses, but I, for one, greatly appreciate his efforts. It is both humbling and motivational, seeing his results.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Crimson n Camo was the one responsible for getting me into the throw n mow. My clover plots are doing really well and we have had some dry weather. I hope over time my plots will build the om. To me the most important factor on the throw n mow is to make sure your plot has enough growth in it whether it be weeds or a cereal grain to provide a good covering of thatch so that when the rain comes the seeds will stay moist and if no rain comes for several days it doesn't bake the ground and dry it out or a windy day will dry it out also. With a good thatch I have even grown AWP and LabLab this way.

Exactly!......One of the hardest things in the beginning of all of this was to get folks to recognize that we’re not just broadcasting seed on top of bare ground. In order to get seed to efficiently germinate in this manner then you need to first and foremost condition the soil so that’s it’s conducive to germinating seed in the fashion. Let’s take it a step further past just having enough thatch on the surface…….


What if we also had a 8-10 inch thick sponge full of water underneath our seed in addition to the thatch on the surface?....Wouldn’t that make the conditions even more favorable to good germination?

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

It really is a pleasure to see CnC sharing his experiences again. It takes time and attention to detail for him to bring this information to the masses, but I, for one, greatly appreciate his efforts. It is both humbling and motivational, seeing his results.

Thanks! I appreciate everyone's comments.

 

[shawn cox]

Exactly!......One of the hardest things in the beginning of all of this was to get folks to recognize that we’re not just broadcasting seed on top of bare ground. In order to get seed to efficiently germinate in this manner then you need to first and foremost condition the soil so that’s it’s conducive to germinating seed in the fashion. Let’s take it a step further past just having enough thatch on the surface…….


What if we also had a 8-10 inch thick sponge full of water underneath our seed in addition to the thatch on the surface?....Wouldn’t that make the conditions even more favorable to good germination?

Exactly, I look at it as I am trying to create the most moist environment I can to germinate my seed and allow it to flourish. Just like you do when you test for seed germination with the wet paper towel test. I want that sprout to have the best chance to get into the dirt and take root before it gets dried out. I have seen people try to throw seed out on just bare ground and expect the same results. Only way that will happen is if it rains every day some for two weeks straight.