Timber harvest advice

[Paradise725]

I'm looking to do a timber harvest on my place this year. The primary goal is to get rid of around 10-20 acres of very low value Virginia pines. I have tried to get people to cut this for me in the past, but there isn't enough money in it to attract loggers. This year I am willing to let the loggers cut an additional 10 acres of hardwoods to make it worth their while.

My goals are as follows:
Remove and clear select areas with existing stands of Virginia pines to allow for future food plots.

Use selective hardwood timber harvest to create thick bedding areas in places already designated as bedding on my property plan.

Generate some income from timber harvest to put toward future property improvements

Any advice? I assume hiring a commercial forester would be worthwhile? I plan to have them leave the tops in the hardwood areas but want the trees and stumps all gone from the areas I want to plant in the future.


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[swat1018]

Wish I could help. I had the MO Dept of Conservation Forester mark some timber for me last week for a sale. It's about 15-20 acres worth, she marked 188 trees. Curious to learn myself.

 

[Stonewall]

One recommendation is to ask alot of questions and also be aware that the foresters you may meet with on the front end, may not personally be there when the actual cutting happens. Sometimes that can lead to trees getting cut that aren't supposed to, and despite finger pointing and excuses, the trees are gone and it can't be undone. I would do what I could to prevent potential for a situation like that.

Another is don't cut any openings that are visible from neighboring property lines, or from roadways.

I would recommend protecting a handful of your largest oaks within the harvest area, preferrably whites.

On the select cut of the 10 acres of hardwoods, are you going to meet with the forester and mark the trees you want to stay (or go), or are you trusting the logger to choose based on some agreed criteria?

What is your total acreage? Do you have an overhead map?

 

[Paradise725]

One recommendation is to ask alot of questions and also be aware that the foresters you may meet with on the front end, may not personally be there when the actual cutting happens. Sometimes that can lead to trees getting cut that aren't supposed to, and despite finger pointing and excuses, the trees are gone and it can't be undone. I would do what I could to prevent potential for a situation like that.

Another is don't cut any openings that are visible from neighboring property lines, or from roadways.

I would recommend protecting a handful of your largest oaks within the harvest area, preferrably whites.

On the select cut of the 10 acres of hardwoods, are you going to meet with the forester and mark the trees you want to stay (or go), or are you trusting the logger to choose based on some agreed criteria?

What is your total acreage? Do you have an overhead map?

Thanks for the tips! I have a good friend who is going to be my proxy with the forester. My land was logged in the late 80's and they didn't leave much behind to work with. I really don't know what the forester is going to say but my goal would be to leave the forest in a healthy condition for regrowth.
We have 725 acres total but most of it is not suitable for timber harvest because it was clear cut in 1994. Of the ground that had timber, my family has requested I only harvest areas not near the road frontage nor near the main access trail that goes through the center of the property. There are 3-4 different finger ridges that have harvestable timber and meet that criteria. All of them have been designated as areas for hinge cut bedding areas already, so a selective timber harvest will accomplish the same thing in my mind.


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[Paradise725]

One recommendation is to ask alot of questions and also be aware that the foresters you may meet with on the front end, may not personally be there when the actual cutting happens. Sometimes that can lead to trees getting cut that aren't supposed to, and despite finger pointing and excuses, the trees are gone and it can't be undone. I would do what I could to prevent potential for a situation like that.

Another is don't cut any openings that are visible from neighboring property lines, or from roadways.

I would recommend protecting a handful of your largest oaks within the harvest area, preferrably whites.

On the select cut of the 10 acres of hardwoods, are you going to meet with the forester and mark the trees you want to stay (or go), or are you trusting the logger to choose based on some agreed criteria?

What is your total acreage? Do you have an overhead map?

Also, you can check out my property tour thread to see an aerial. It's titled my little slice of paradise.


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[Stonewall]

Thanks for the tips! I have a good friend who is going to be my proxy with the forester. My land was logged in the late 80's and they didn't leave much behind to work with. I really don't know what the forester is going to say but my goal would be to leave the forest in a healthy condition for regrowth.
We have 725 acres total but most of it is not suitable for timber harvest because it was clear cut in 1994. Of the ground that had timber, my family has requested I only harvest areas not near the road frontage nor near the main access trail that goes through the center of the property. There are 3-4 different finger ridges that have harvestable timber and meet that criteria. All of them have been designated as areas for hinge cut bedding areas already, so a selective timber harvest will accomplish the same thing in my mind.


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So the fingers you are cutting are 1980?

You should have a few nice, 30-36 yr old oaks on each finger that you could leave. Food source and will enhance cosmetics of the land as well.

Imagine a crowned out oak dropping in the middle of that opening......just like the forum logo

 

[Stonewall]

Also, you can check out my property tour thread to see an aerial. It's titled my little slice of paradise.


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Will do!

 

[Paradise725]

So the fingers you are cutting are 1980?

You should have a few nice, 30-36 yr old oaks on each finger that you could leave. Food source and will enhance cosmetics of the land as well.

Imagine a crowned out oak dropping in the middle of that opening......just like the forum logo

I'm not sure how old they are. I think they are whatever was leftover from the cut in late 80's. I know there are some good sized trees but I'm not sure how desirable they will be to loggers.


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[Chummer]

My forester marked and recorded every tree to be cut based on what I was trying to accomplish. After they are cut he went back and counted stumps to make sure no additional trees were cut. I also had him put how the trails and tops were to be dealt with in the contract.

 

[Seabee]

My forester marked and recorded every tree to be cut based on what I was trying to accomplish. After they are cut he went back and counted stumps to make sure no additional trees were cut. I also had him put how the trails and tops were to be dealt with in the contract.

Mine did too. They put a blue horizontal line on the tree to be cut and a blue dot at the base of the stump. He went back and counted dots on the stumps after the harvest. He also made the loggers come back out and smooth a few ruts on one of the logging roads. I was total;ly impressed with my forester and would never do a harvest without one!

 

[Chainsaw]

Here are a few of my thoughts -
When hiring a crew for a one time operation it is difficult to get what you want without considerable communication. Do not trust a logger for sure until they have earned your trust and do not trust a forester for sure until they have earned your trust. Loggers are no more dishonest than foresters and vice versa. Even then though they aren't you, they have different motivations than you so every detail must be communicated a dozen times verbally and in writing via contract and then the work checked by you or your buddy as often as it can be. Have your buddy take lots of pictures to help you see from afar what is happening if you can't be there. Get red tree marking paint to mark special trees that you want left.
I would google anyone being considered for hire;if they are shady it may show up on a google search.
Extreme communication and regular checking can not be emphasized enough.

Use this as a way to learn more about the lumber business. Go on a tour of a lumber mill, schedule yourself to be there when the log buyer grades the logs and ask lots of questions. Have the forester teach how to distinguish between a veneer log, a number 1, a number 2, a pallet log. Spending time with the loggers and forester and log buyers is a great opportunity to see the world as they see it. It is a great learning opportunity. Most of the people in the business are good people. The bad ones ruin it for the rest just as in any business.

Good luck Luke and please feel welcome to call, e-mail or post any questions on here that come up. I'll answer any that I have experience with.

 

[Paradise725]

Thanks all for the great advice. I talked to the state forester for my region and he is going to send me a list of commercial foresters in my area. From there, I will call 3 of them and feel them out. I want one who is most importantly honest and not afraid to tell me like it is. I definitely have a lot to learn about timber harvest so fingers crossed I find a good forester to work with.

Thanks for the offer to help, Dave. I miss having your thread on the old forum to use as reference material for endeavors such as this. I may take you up on that offer as I get further into this project.

As a side note, I am more generally a forum lurker than poster, but I want to emphasize to the other lurkers out there how important it is to ask questions when it comes to this forum. Even if the question may have been covered on another thread two months ago, it generates more hits on a google search, which ultimately leads to more people discovering this forum. We have an incredible core group of experienced habitat managers on this forum, but we can always use more members to provide a broader range of experience and expertise.


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[j-bird]

You want each tree numbered that is to be harvested. That number needs to be cataloged and measured. They should provide you a list of all the different species you are having cut and a price for them. You or someone you trust should be with the loggers when the trees for harvest are marked. Consider any "junk" trees that are causing issues with higher value trees and any high value trees that are damaged or in poor health. Some loggers tend to wander or cut a few "extra" trees - make sure property lines or cutting zones are clearly defined. . Prices change and what is of value today may not be of value next month - don't get pressured into cutting. If the market is down.....wait. Make sure they have their own insurance. I had a logger break his face when they cut my place the first time and he required several surgeries to recover. Make sure routes, log landings and loading areas are defined. Make sure any repair work to be done is in writing as well. You can even request an advance to be paid back to the logger to hold them accountable for the repair work - they will come back if they have money on the line....instead of just bailing on you. If you want tops put in a certain place or brush piled you need to make that known and marked accordingly. They will have the equipment there to do it with - don't pay someone to come back later and mess with it.

I have had selective timber harvests twice now in 10 years and I have had great results and been really pleased. Working with professional and reputable people is VERY important. Knowing what YOU want and having it in writing and CLEARLY communicated is jut as important.

I was VERY involved in both harvests on my place. From tree marking to access routes to daily follow-up and monitoring of the work. My property is where I live so it was easy to do that, but that isn't an option for everyone. I did NOT use a forester, but the logger I used I have family connections with so my situation is a little different.

Logging results tend to be fairly dramatic so brace yourself. I was almost physically sick when I saw what I was left with the first time. I thought I had made a huge mistake. I was WRONG. Timber harvest CAN be one of the best habitat improvements you can have when done at the right time and in the right manner.

Good luck.

 

[CentralKyHunter]

I hired a consulting forester that I confirmed as a honest representative through my forestry department contact .

This was the best decision I made on my timber harvest. I told the consultant my goals which were to not only sell my valuable trees, but to also leave some really good trees and to remove as many future non-valuable trees as I possibly could.

To begin with the Forester marked every tree on my property that was allowed to be cut and presented me with an inventory sheet for the harvest .

Secondly he put the property up for bid and presented me with all bids that he received.

From there I had the choice to pick any of those bids or to not move forward with the sale .

He worked on 10% commission with a clause for payment based on the amount of time he had put into that job if I decided not to sell.

Many people told me I was crazy for paying 10% for an advisor like this. But as proof that I made the right decision I will tell you that local loggers offered me around $15,000 for my timber and that was to basically open the door and let them pick and choose as they wanted with me having very little say so . Basically I would take all of my good trees and leave me with a bunch of junk for the future .

My timber ended up selling for $37,000 to a timber company about three hours out of my area !!! Money well spent!!!! And I have a track of woods that will be valuable in the future also instead of left with a bunch of undesirables species.

 

[Paradise725]

I hired a consulting forester that I confirmed as a honest representative through my forestry department contact .

This was the best decision I made on my timber harvest. I told the consultant my goals which were to not only sell my valuable trees, but to also leave some really good trees and to remove as many future non-valuable trees as I possibly could.

To begin with the Forester marked every tree on my property that was allowed to be cut and presented me with an inventory sheet for the harvest .

Secondly he put the property up for bid and presented me with all bids that he received.

From there I had the choice to pick any of those bids or to not move forward with the sale .

He worked on 10% commission with a clause for payment based on the amount of time he had put into that job if I decided not to sell.

Many people told me I was crazy for paying 10% for an advisor like this. But as proof that I made the right decision I will tell you that local loggers offered me around $15,000 for my timber and that was to basically open the door and let them pick and choose as they wanted with me having very little say so . Basically I would take all of my good trees and leave me with a bunch of junk for the future .

My timber ended up selling for $37,000 to a timber company about three hours out of my area !!! Money well spent!!!! And I have a track of woods that will be valuable in the future also instead of left with a bunch of undesirables species.

Wow, that's a great experience! I plan to do the same and use one of the consulting foresters that my state forester had experience with. I am putting things on hold for a few weeks while I am traveling for business but plan to start making more phone calls in late January.


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[buckdeer1]

I wouldn't let the logs leave the property without having a check.In my walnut harvest,In my harvest I did a 50/50 split with the logger.Some of my trees were almost worthless due to rot.You couldn't tell this until the tree was on the ground so I made more.With pines this may not be the case but if the logs couldn't leave the property until the job had been approved I bet it would be done right.I also had all my tops left

 

[rusty1034]

I'll climb on board with this discussion as I am in a similar situation.

I have a 20 acre piece in St Lawrence County NY that I am looking to have logged. Mostly Ash and Soft Maple.

I want to hire a forester who will survey the trees, and put the job out to bid.

So far I have left messages with two foresters who have not called back. A third had a disconnected phone, and the fourth said he didn't put jobs out to bid because he has been in the business long enough he knows who to call to sell the logs to.

Anyone know a forester in that area that can do what I'm looking for ?

Thanks- Rusty


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[dogghr]

Maybe it's because I live in good logging country, but I couldn't even get a forester to consider helping with a 20-30 ac harvest of mature prime red and white oak.. Won't even talk unless you are doing 100+ ac. I can get a logger to take the job which I will prob do but would have like to have the backup of a forester. State forester is an option for marking trees but won't oversee a harvest.

 

[j-bird]

I have heard of many small property owners having issues getting a logger. Logging is about volume and/or prime timber and small properties simply tend to lack one or the other or both needed to make the effort worth while. Either with a Forester or Logger they may have "bigger fish to fry" so to speak.

The only time I have ever seen a small property logged was when a logger was already on a job that was pretty near them. This minimizes the cost of moving the equipment and may be a long shot, but it might be worth looking into.

 

[Chainsaw]

I'll climb on board with this discussion as I am in a similar situation.

I have a 20 acre piece in St Lawrence County NY that I am looking to have logged. Mostly Ash and Soft Maple.

I want to hire a forester who will survey the trees, and put the job out to bid.

So far I have left messages with two foresters who have not called back. A third had a disconnected phone, and the fourth said he didn't put jobs out to bid because he has been in the business long enough he knows who to call to sell the logs to.

Anyone know a forester in that area that can do what I'm looking for ?

Thanks- Rusty


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Rusty, the reality is that with twenty acres and this market getting lumber companies to give bids would be tough. Cornell has a Master Forest Owner program that can help you get started in the process of having your property logged. They have a crew of volunteer NY landowners they have trained to help fellow landowners get started in the process of having their land logged. Here is the link to the program http://blogs.cornell.edu/ccemfo/
Click on resources and then find a volunteer. Kristin Ferrare is the regional coordinator for your area. Her contact info will be on there.