Throw N Mow thread...

[yoderjac]

Glad you answered the question about planting brassicas early and cultipacking over them. I’ve often wanted to planted early and come back later to broadcast and cultipack cereal grains, but have been worried about damaging the brassicas.


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Generally, after a couple weeks they are still to young and supple to damage. You wouldn't want to do it after they produce bulbs.

 

[KSQ2]

And the chicory says, “Drought? What drought???”

 

[yoderjac]

Yep, chicory is quite deep rooted. Once established, it is pretty drought resistant.

 

[William Allis]

I am switching to spray, mow and throw and l was not impressed with my results last year. I am afraid our poor soil, sour, heavy, stoney and clay, may need to be tilled to get good germination. I will try again this year but am going to take Mennoniteman 's advice and do a spring planting with oats and clover and then top dress with rye, light clover and some brassicas in late summer. I like turnips for late winter, nothing but deer eat them.

I watched Matt Morse YT, all 8 of them. I agree with him but I spray 25 gallon per acre, 2 qts Gly and 3/4 quart 2,4d.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I am switching to spray, mow and throw and l was not impressed with my results last year. I am afraid our poor soil, sour, heavy, stoney and clay, may need to be tilled to get good germination. I will try again this year but am going to take Mennoniteman 's advice and do a spring planting with oats and clover and then top dress with rye, light clover and some brassicas in late summer. I like turnips for late winter, nothing but deer eat them.

I watched Matt Morse YT, all 8 of them. I agree with him but I spray 25 gallon per acre, 2 qts Gly and 3/4 quart 2,4d.

What didn’t work? You f it was weeds, what weeds came up?


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[yoderjac]

I am switching to spray, mow and throw and l was not impressed with my results last year. I am afraid our poor soil, sour, heavy, stoney and clay, may need to be tilled to get good germination. I will try again this year but am going to take Mennoniteman 's advice and do a spring planting with oats and clover and then top dress with rye, light clover and some brassicas in late summer. I like turnips for late winter, nothing but deer eat them.

I watched Matt Morse YT, all 8 of them. I agree with him but I spray 25 gallon per acre, 2 qts Gly and 3/4 quart 2,4d.

I don't find poor soils a problem with no-till or min-till. We have heavy clay soils that are acidic. Top dress with lime to get the pH right. Frequent and deep tillage introduces oxygen into the soil causing it to burn OM. As a result, our heavy clay, when exposed to rain would develop a crust. So, I had to start with min-till. I used a 3pt tiller. I lifted it with the 3pt hitch so the tines barely touched the soil, not more than an inch. It was enough to break the crust and get better seed soil contact. Another thing that helped was cultipacking. This helps push the seed into the soil and creates an uneven surface so rain does not wash off but soaks in better.

It takes time to build OM back up in the soil after traditional tillage for years. The key is smart rotation and mixing of crops. Like composting they talk about mixing greens and browns, you need to have a balance of grasses to provide carbon and legumes to provide nitrogen. Over time as they decompose you will restore OM and improve soil health. I have not used fertilizer in many years now with no reduction in deer use. Unlike farmers that remove nutrients from the soil by harvesting, food plotters can depend on natural nutrient cycling when they go no-till. While nutrients taken by deer browsing, deer defecate returning much back to the soil.

It took me about 5 years of min-till before I was able to go full no-till. While I used a tiller for no till, it can also be done with a disk. You want it set straight with no added weight. Less is better. You just want enough disturbance to expose some soil. Typically when I'm done min-tilling, the plot still looks green from a distance. It does not look brown like a traditionally tilled plot.

I like a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp for summer in my area (zone 7a). They can be planted later in the spring and surface broadcast well. They compete well against summer weeds. In the fall, I like winter rye, a very light addition of brassica (2 lbs/ac for PTT), and Crimson Clover for fall. Great for deer and building OM. I prefer to do this rotation for about 3 years in heavy clay before planting a perennial cover plot. I find it best to plant it in the fall with a winter rye nurse crop. I typically plant my normal fall mix substituting a perennial clover for the Crimson clover.

Best of luck whatever course you take.

 

[davidhelmly]

I am switching to spray, mow and throw and l was not impressed with my results last year. I am afraid our poor soil, sour, heavy, stoney and clay, may need to be tilled to get good germination. I will try again this year but am going to take Mennoniteman 's advice and do a spring planting with oats and clover and then top dress with rye, light clover and some brassicas in late summer. I like turnips for late winter, nothing but deer eat them.

I watched Matt Morse YT, all 8 of them. I agree with him but I spray 25 gallon per acre, 2 qts Gly and 3/4 quart 2,4d.

Just curious, why would you mow before you throw seed, how would the seed be covered?

 

[Mennoniteman]

Just curious, why would you mow before you throw seed, how would the seed be covered?

I assumed that he just said it backwards?

 

[Mennoniteman]

I am switching to spray, mow and throw and l was not impressed with my results last year. I am afraid our poor soil, sour, heavy, stoney and clay, may need to be tilled to get good germination. I will try again this year but am going to take Mennoniteman 's advice and do a spring planting with oats and clover and then top dress with rye, light clover and some brassicas in late summer. I like turnips for late winter, nothing but deer eat them.

I watched Matt Morse YT, all 8 of them. I agree with him but I spray 25 gallon per acre, 2 qts Gly and 3/4 quart 2,4d.

I'm trying to remember what your slopes are, are you flat or steep? Erosion is about the number one cause of poor soil, and therefore tillage can also be the cause of poor soil.

 

[yoderjac]

I assumed that he just said it backwards?

Actually I've done it both ways with success. It really depends on the amount of thatch and condition of the vegetation. If the vegetation is such that it will interfere with seed-soil contact it can be a problem. But I find that if I vegetation is not too thick most of the kinds of seeds I surface broadcast will fall to the ground, especially if I cultipack. For folks new to this, broadcasting before mowing is your best bet.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm trying to remember what your slopes are, are you flat or steep? Erosion is about the number one cause of poor soil, and therefore tillage can also be the cause of poor soil.

This is another good point!

 

[davidhelmly]

I assumed that he just said it backwards?

Hopefully so.

 

[William Allis]

I spray, throw and mow, it was a typo. My rye didn't germinate well, I am waiting to see what comes up this spring. Brassicas didn't do well last fall, they were stunted. I put on as much pelleted lime as I could afford. About 400 # per acre. 100 # of triple 15 per acre. We got little rain, but the plot is wet. Our land is rolling and I try to never work up and down the hill. Maybe a change in elevation of 3 ft in 300 ft. is normal. I use a heavy cultipacker. The snow has just gone off, so I haven't looked too closely this spring. It's discouraging when you can't grow rye! In the past I bottom plowed early, and rototilled and cultimulched it just before planting in Aug. My plots looked about right for our poor soil. Trying to go notill and maybe I am expecting results too fast.

 

[KSQ2]

T&m is VERY dependent on rain. When we first began experimenting with it and the rains came, our plots did great. When the rains stopped the last 4 years, t&m was a complete failure. In the droughts of ‘11 and ‘12, we planted plots conventionally and they did well regardless when the rains finally came in November. We’ve never tilled deep, but the dirt must hide more of the seed from raiders and/or the better seed/soil contact with tilling made the difference. We will be starting over completely this fall with conventional planting, but IF the drought ends we’ll try t&m again in the future, there are great benefits to regenerative plotting.

One more note, you mentioned brassicas; turnips in particular are very dependent on nitrogen, if you’re not throwing them into established clover, they will not do well with t&m, unless you throw urea on them and get good rain within 24 hours. The urea will release its nitrogen into the atmosphere and do nothing for your brassicas otherwise.

 

[yoderjac]

T&m is VERY dependent on rain. When we first began experimenting with it and the rains came, our plots did great. When the rains stopped the last 4 years, t&m was a complete failure. In the droughts of ‘11 and ‘12, we planted plots conventionally and they did well regardless when the rains finally came in November. We’ve never tilled deep, but the dirt must hide more of the seed from raiders and/or the better seed/soil contact with tilling made the difference. We will be starting over completely this fall with conventional planting, but IF the drought ends we’ll try t&m again in the future, there are great benefits to regenerative plotting.

One more note, you mentioned brassicas; turnips in particular are very dependent on nitrogen, if you’re not throwing them into established clover, they will not do well with t&m, unless you throw urea on them and get good rain within 24 hours. The urea will release its nitrogen into the atmosphere and do nothing for your brassicas otherwise.

I've never added N in my fall mixes, but I do rotations and mixes so there are always legumes fixing N. I also keep my PTT density low. I don't like to use more than 2lbs/ac in a mix or they shade out other stuff. I think that helps with the N requirement for them. You are right that we benefit mostly from previous legume crops as most of the N is released when they die, but with perennial clover, there are always some individual plant dying and new ones germinating. Clover fields become more attractive to grasses as they age because N is slowly building up over time.

I find all forms of planting dependent on rain. Timely rain covers a multitude of sins. Tillage tends to dry out soil making it even more susceptible to lack of moisture. No-till methods, even T&M conserve what little moisture you have.

 

[Mennoniteman]

T&m is VERY dependent on rain. When we first began experimenting with it and the rains came, our plots did great. When the rains stopped the last 4 years, t&m was a complete failure. In the droughts of ‘11 and ‘12, we planted plots conventionally and they did well regardless when the rains finally came in November. We’ve never tilled deep, but the dirt must hide more of the seed from raiders and/or the better seed/soil contact with tilling made the difference. We will be starting over completely this fall with conventional planting, but IF the drought ends we’ll try t&m again in the future, there are great benefits to regenerative plotting.

One more note, you mentioned brassicas; turnips in particular are very dependent on nitrogen, if you’re not throwing them into established clover, they will not do well with t&m, unless you throw urea on them and get good rain within 24 hours. The urea will release its nitrogen into the atmosphere and do nothing for your brassicas otherwise.

I know this is a throw n mow thread, and not to assume that this works for small plots with no equipment, no budget, and no access, but just to keep this thought in the game, the (more expensive) answer to this discussion that fixes most of the shortcomings of tillage and T&M is "no-till planter". When a seed is placed at the correct depth in the soil it will almost always germinate, even in less than ideal conditions, and the existing thatch and root system conserves soil and nutrients, preventing erosion and loss of organic matter.

 

[yoderjac]

I know this is a throw n mow thread, and not to assume that this works for small plots with no equipment, no budget, and no access, but just to keep this thought in the game, the (more expensive) answer to this discussion that fixes most of the shortcomings of tillage and T&M is "no-till planter". When a seed is placed at the correct depth in the soil it will almost always germinate, even in less than ideal conditions, and the existing thatch and root system conserves soil and nutrients, preventing erosion and loss of organic matter.

I have a no-till drill. It sits in the barn most of the time. It is great for large seeded warm season annuals like beans and corn that don't surface broadcast well. I've switched from a mix of beans and corn for summer to a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp. Both of these surface broadcast so well, I find it faster to surface broadcast and cultipack than to use the drill.

The place where I still use the drill is when I no-till WR and GHR into suppressed clover. It is a great tool to have when I need it, but most of the time I don't use it based on my seed selection.

 

[KSQ2]

I know this is a throw n mow thread, and not to assume that this works for small plots with no equipment, no budget, and no access, but just to keep this thought in the game, the (more expensive) answer to this discussion that fixes most of the shortcomings of tillage and T&M is "no-till planter". When a seed is placed at the correct depth in the soil it will almost always germinate, even in less than ideal conditions, and the existing thatch and root system conserves soil and nutrients, preventing erosion and loss of organic matter.

I agree wholeheartedly. The red clover and oats I put in last spring with my good buddy’s Great Plains drill did very well, even with the lack of rainfall. He will let me use it just about anytime on the Massey, but I’ve not asked too much as of yet. Speaking of no-till drills, we will be renting the conservation office’s drill to plant our alfalfa next month, weather and coop cooperation pending of course.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I spray, throw and mow, it was a typo. My rye didn't germinate well, I am waiting to see what comes up this spring. Brassicas didn't do well last fall, they were stunted. I put on as much pelleted lime as I could afford. About 400 # per acre. 100 # of triple 15 per acre. We got little rain, but the plot is wet. Our land is rolling and I try to never work up and down the hill. Maybe a change in elevation of 3 ft in 300 ft. is normal. I use a heavy cultipacker. The snow has just gone off, so I haven't looked too closely this spring. It's discouraging when you can't grow rye! In the past I bottom plowed early, and rototilled and cultimulched it just before planting in Aug. My plots looked about right for our poor soil. Trying to go notill and maybe I am expecting results too fast.

What weeds came in the fastest? That could help diagnose your challenge.


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