The Right 15

[Deadeye]

Give it a couple more years and it will be so thick you can't get through it, but the Deer can.

Might want to try throwing some Fertilizer on the areas you want to grow in thicker in the Spring, amazing what a little food and sun will do to the Briars that will be growing there soon.

 

[jvanhees]

Sounds like we’re in the same boat. Our early successional growth is head high and provides excellent cover through October. Things look much different now!

Fall/winter security cover is a big priority for me right now. It’s hard to address from 4600 miles away but I’m chipping away at it. If you want to check out our property tour, its called Kaleo Hills.


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Update - Woods is still not very thick. Its been almost 3 years now. Looks good in Summer, but can see too far. It is also very wet....has anyone planted any fast growing species like willow or red osier or cattails (eh) in a mostly wet area? Any other options?

I have a bunch or medium swamp oaks and soft maple in there yet. Loggers wont come out as it's not enough work and its wet.... I wonder if those were out if it would come back and thicken up quicker, or the wetness is affecting it.

 

[jvanhees]

Give it a couple more years and it will be so thick you can't get through it, but the Deer can.

Might want to try throwing some Fertilizer on the areas you want to grow in thicker in the Spring, amazing what a little food and sun will do to the Briars that will be growing there soon.

Great idea Deadeye!

 

[pinetag]

Update - Woods is still not very thick. Its been almost 3 years now. Looks good in Summer, but can see too far. It is also very wet....has anyone planted any fast growing species like willow or red osier or cattails (eh) in a mostly wet area? Any other options?

I have a bunch or medium swamp oaks and soft maple in there yet. Loggers wont come out as it's not enough work and its wet.... I wonder if those were out if it would come back and thicken up quicker, or the wetness is affecting it.

I will be planting both willows and ROD in the spring on my place. I know that doesn't really help you much but both of those should do well in your wet areas. I have been compiling a list of wet tolerant species that I can message you if you'd like? It includes flowers, grasses, and shrubs. As far as my spring planting...I am using the willow for screening purposes only. It doesn't provide any food beneift that I'm aware of, so I didn't want that growing in the center of my property where I want to provide food and cover to meet all their needs. The ROD cuttings will be protected for the first year or so, but once they get established they supposedly handle browsing really well. Do you have greenbriar growing? It seems to grow ok in moist soils. I've noticed though it seems to do better when it has something to climb so I would leave a few standings trees for that.

BTW, still listening to and enjoying the podcast regularly!

Oh, I forgot to mention that Japanese Millet does super well in wet soils but it is an annual. Might help with cover until the natives start getting taller.

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[jvanhees]

I will be planting both willows and ROD in the spring on my place. I know that doesn't really help you much but both of those should do well in your wet areas. I have been compiling a list of wet tolerant species that I can message you if you'd like? It includes flowers, grasses, and shrubs. As far as my spring planting...I am using the willow for screening purposes only. It doesn't provide any food beneift that I'm aware of, so I didn't want that growing in the center of my property where I want to provide food and cover to meet all their needs. The ROD cuttings will be protected for the first year or so, but once they get established they supposedly handle browsing really well. Do you have greenbriar growing? It seems to grow ok in moist soils. I've noticed though it seems to do better when it has something to climb so I would leave a few standings trees for that.

BTW, still listening to and enjoying the podcast regularly!

Oh, I forgot to mention that Japanese Millet does super well in wet soils but it is an annual. Might help with cover until the natives start getting taller.

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That sounds great Pine! I'd love to review that list of your choices for wet tolerant species. The willow should out-compete, but what about the others competing with what is established? Are you doing any other prep? There is some briar in the dryer areas but not elsewhere. It's real wet... I am should drop or girdle a few of the trees back there too to open up that canopy more. That millet is intriguing....deer feed on those heads right? How wet can that handle?

Thank you for listening! We have some great episodes lined up now that hunting season is winding down!

 

[pinetag]

That sounds great Pine! I'd love to review that list of your choices for wet tolerant species. The willow should out-compete, but what about the others competing with what is established? Are you doing any other prep? There is some briar in the dryer areas but not elsewhere. It's real wet... I am should drop or girdle a few of the trees back there too to open up that canopy more. That millet is intriguing....deer feed on those heads right? How wet can that handle?

Thank you for listening! We have some great episodes lined up now that hunting season is winding down!

So I have a variety of plans going on this spring. I need to open up some canopy to create better bedding/edge habitat and then I would like to establish some NWSG areas with pollinators and shrubs mixed in (hence the list). I will be hinging/flush cutting pockets and then raking/blowing leaves clear. Once spring green up hits I will spray and then put my seed mixes down. My ROD cuttings will get weed fabric and cages but everything else will have to fend for itself as my pockets will be anywhere from 1/10 to 1/2 acre. My hope is that natives come in along with my seed mixtures.

As far as the Millet Ive yet to use it myself mainly because it is an annual. I think deer will eat it some but I don't think it's a big draw. It gets about 4' tall and as long as it gets established before flooding, it can actually tolerate standing water for long periods. Duck hunters use it a lot. They draw down water in low spots, seed and get it established, and then deliberately flood it to hunt over.

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[weekender21]

Update - Woods is still not very thick. Its been almost 3 years now. Looks good in Summer, but can see too far. It is also very wet....has anyone planted any fast growing species like willow or red osier or cattails (eh) in a mostly wet area? Any other options?

I have a bunch or medium swamp oaks and soft maple in there yet. Loggers wont come out as it's not enough work and its wet.... I wonder if those were out if it would come back and thicken up quicker, or the wetness is affecting it.

Got any updated pictures?

 

[jvanhees]

I will try to get some pics for you all to see soon!

 

[jvanhees]

Update from the stand yesterday AM




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[weekender21]

Update from the stand yesterday AM
View attachment 17870
View attachment 17871


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Is that the open wet area you were talking about?


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[Mennoniteman]

Update from the stand yesterday AM
View attachment 17870
View attachment 17871


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Looks like a lot of shade, which will keep it from getting thicker. I've got a 15 acre hunting hotspot, but it's thicker than hair on a dog. If deer is your number one goal and you are limited on acres they need to be quality acres, which might mean sacrificing some shade. I'd consider leaving a quality tree standing every 40' in all directions and cutting the rest into windrows and piles with trails throughout. Getting a pc of steel tracked machinery in to do some work helps by scarifying the soil, that gets things growing that otherwise wouldn't be able to get established. I've been reading about your property and find it interesting. Good luck.

 

[jvanhees]

Is that the open wet area you were talking about?


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Yes it is.

 

[weekender21]

Our parts of the country are very different but in the mountains of NC, that area would be loaded with blackberry, jewlweed and other thick natives by simple removing the trees and disturbing the soil a little. Do you have any idea what might show up, good or bad, by simply removing the trees?

Maybe sample a 1/8 of an acre or so. I'm no expert but I'd probably start there. If you like the result you can repeat as necessary until the entire area is thick like you're hoping. If the results are poor, you're only out a tank of chainsaw gas and a few hours.

 

[g squared 23]

I’d go to town with either a chainsaw, or a drill and a squirt bottle of roundup (my preferred method; killed about 40 trees yesterday with minimal effort) to make blocks of nasty thick stuff. Anything that doesn’t have very high timber value or make edible nuts for deer will get it. Hackberry, maple, sassafras, cottonwood, some elms and even the occasional black walnut were some of the victims this time around.


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[jvanhees]

Our parts of the country are very different but in the mountains of NC, that area would be loaded with blackberry, jewlweed and other thick natives by simple removing the trees and disturbing the soil a little. Do you have any idea what might show up, good or bad, by simply removing the trees?

Maybe sample a 1/8 of an acre or so. I'm no expert but I'd probably start there. If you like the result you can repeat as necessary until the entire area is thick like you're hoping. If the results are poor, you're only out a tank of chainsaw gas and a few hours.

That is a great idea weekender. I wanted a logger to come in and get it taken care of but that isnt working out. Maybe Ill try an area my self and see what happens!

I’d go to town with either a chainsaw, or a drill and a squirt bottle of roundup (my preferred method; killed about 40 trees yesterday with minimal effort) to make blocks of nasty thick stuff. Anything that doesn’t have very high timber value or make edible nuts for deer will get it. Hackberry, maple, sassafras, cottonwood, some elms and even the occasional black walnut were some of the victims this time around.
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So the drill is another version of hack n squirt? How do you do it? Great thoughts here as dropping all those trees is dangerous as well. It is mostly swamp oak and soft maple which does have some value, but not if the loggers wont come get it...

 

[Mennoniteman]

That is a great idea weekender. I wanted a logger to come in and get it taken care of but that isnt working out. Maybe Ill try an area my self and see what happens!



So the drill is another version of hack n squirt? How do you do it? Great thoughts here as dropping all those trees is dangerous as well. It is mostly swamp oak and soft maple which does have some value, but not if the loggers wont come get it...

If the loggers don't want the trees that tells you something of the value of them. You could try searching for a smaller logger if you didn't already, stop in at small sawmills within an 80 mile radius and ask them for references for smaller loggers, you might be surprised what you come up with, one man's junk is another man's bread and butter. If you can't find a logger I'd consider getting a local excavator with a large track dozer and just pushing some over. Drilling trees with a 1" hole on a slight downward angle and injecting several oz of triclopyr will kill a tree, but is a lot of work and very messy as far as tree limbs coming down for years afterwards.

 

[jvanhees]

If the loggers don't want the trees that tells you something of the value of them. You could try searching for a smaller logger if you didn't already, stop in at small sawmills within an 80 mile radius and ask them for references for smaller loggers, you might be surprised what you come up with, one man's junk is another man's bread and butter. If you can't find a logger I'd consider getting a local excavator with a large track dozer and just pushing some over. Drilling trees with a 1" hole on a slight downward angle and injecting several oz of triclopyr will kill a tree, but is a lot of work and very messy as far as tree limbs coming down for years afterwards.

Here is what is back there. Just not a large job. I hired a private forester but the local sawmill thing is a good idea that I will suggest. Thank you.


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[weekender21]

I'm definitely no expert but none of the trees in your pictures look "board size" to me. I'd assume from the results from the timber cruise you have listed that you do have some larger trees in that area. Most of the pulp wood markets are pretty poor at the moment, that's probably part of the reason you can't sell the timber.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I'm definitely no expert but none of the trees in your pictures look "board size" to me. I'd assume from the results from the timber cruise you have listed that you do have some larger trees in that area. Most of the pulp wood markets are pretty poor at the moment, that's probably part of the reason you can't sell the timber.

according to the chart, there's no bigger trees there. An average logging job is 300,000 bd ft, which needs about 700 20" trees. Based on the numbers on the chart, at 116 board feet a tree on the doyle scale is 15" or 16" in diameter, with only 150 trees that's why they didn't sell. But that's not saying that a local guy won't take them for pallets or skids. I'd specifically check with a pallet shop.

 

[Chainsaw]

We had a similar stand in our woods. Not only was there very little ground cover but the trees themselves were barely growing. We released the few apple trees that were there and cut a lot of the swamp maples that were on the drier ground but left the few hickories that were there.
Smaller swamp maples were simply dropped and left there. There were not so many small ones that they acted as barriers to travel. If they had we would have just pushed them into piles. And we didn’t’ kill any stumps, deer feeding on stump sprouts kept them down and killed most of them. The result after about four years was thick cover, and lots of deer use.