Swamp white vs white oak vs red oak

[Jerry D]

Hi guys.

I'm planning on planting 500 oak trees this fall.

I have 250 red oak and 250 white oak

These started as purchased conservation grade plugs about 2-4" tall in plugs about 2" diameter by 4" deep. I potted them into 1 gallon rootmaker and now they are 3' tall.

What soil types do these 3 types of oaks like.

One dryer soil, one more acidic, shade tolerance?

That would be great information. The reason I ask. Is my grandfather planted red oak and white oak. He said the white never took. He would have planted bareroot seedlings which would have suffered transplant shock. Maybe red oak transplant easier?

Thanks!

 

[cagantpr]

Jerry:

I can't say about any differences because I have never planted any, but the acreage I own does have plenty of mature reds, blacks, whites, swamp whites, and chestnut oaks. The are tall and straight from competing, and the bulk of them are in the 50 foot range. The trees that I have cut show 80+ rings.

The soil that they are growing in is very acidic, rocky, and well drained. All the varieties are interspersed, so I don't think there is any soil preference from one particular type. None of them (including the so-named swamp) are growing in areas that may not be well drained.

As evidenced by the young trees that have sprouted from acorns under the canopy, reds and whites will survive and grow slowly in shade. If you want to see acorns in your lifetime, I think full sun will be required.

Sorry I can't be of more help with your seedlings. Good luck.

 

[shedder]

All of mine direct seeded seem to do well on drier soil. I have acidic soil but don't know how acidic.

I transplanted some wild red oak seedlings in June. Those that were in damp soil did better.

I transplanted 2 SWO from container in Dec one year into very damp soil by water and was surprised at how well they did. I have read SWO transplants do better in damp soil, too.

I have been told not to transplant in the fall because frost will heave them. April is supposed to be good or before leaf out.

Shade tolerance is tricky in oaks. Some will handle it better than others. Direct sun helps but the down size is frost exposure , etc.

Check some of my prior posts for references than may help.

 

[Mennoniteman]

In most of the different woods that I've spent my time in, the white oaks were always more prevalent at lower elevations closer to the creek, and red oaks at higher levels further away from the creeks.

 

[Fish]

They should all be happy growing in the same soil. Unless you have some soil extreme, dont worry with it. Swamp whites willl favor more soil moisture, but there is no drastic difference. None of the 3 want to grow in a swamp.
Yes, i have planted all three, and on my clay, fairly drained soil, they are all happy at year 15.

 

[KDdid]

I love how tolerant swo's are of all soil/moisture conditions. I gathered swo acorns yesterday to direct seed along my wetland areas at the back of the farm. Just above the high water line, I'm planning on incorporating a row of tamaracks between them and the cattail/willow growth. The trees I gathered the acorns from are true monsters, 3-4' DBH, and I remember begging dad not to cut them down back in the 1970's. For a long time I thought that he spared them for my benefit, now I suspect that it was just too big of job to tackle for him.

 

[Nebraskaz71]

i know swamp white oaks dont like real alkaline ground like i have other than that i cant add a lot

 

[1yellowdog]

Red Oak grows best in fertile, sandy loam soils. White Oak does best on well-drained soils, but will tolerate dry poor upland sites. Swamp White Oak grow best in the low hills and stream bottoms; most tolerate of the three you mentioned to get their feet week.
The oak that I think that gets over looked the most is the Bur Oak. I love the Bur Oak's versatility. It'll grow anywhere; from dry uplands to the wet lowlands. I understand if you are planting for future harvest the Bur isn't the top choice of the logger. But the Bur Oak adds diversity to your forest that produces large acorns.

 

[Nebraskaz71]

80% of the trees I plant are bur oak, its what grows best here so i agree with yellowdog

 

[dogghr]

Hi guys.

I'm planning on planting 500 oak trees this fall.

I have 250 red oak and 250 white oak

These started as purchased conservation grade plugs about 2-4" tall in plugs about 2" diameter by 4" deep. I potted them into 1 gallon rootmaker and now they are 3' tall.

What soil types do these 3 types of oaks like.

One dryer soil, one more acidic, shade tolerance?

That would be great information. The reason I ask. Is my grandfather planted red oak and white oak. He said the white never took. He would have planted bareroot seedlings which would have suffered transplant shock. Maybe red oak transplant easier?

Thanks!

White oak prefer western and southern slopes and slightly better soils. If down too low, they can have to deal with frost pockets much as apple trees do and not produce acorns as well. Red oaks are typically more tolerant of drier and poorer soils and tolerate shade slightly better. Black oaks are most tolerant of the worst soils. Red oaks reseed easier then WO for a variety of reasons. The main thing for either is prevent competition for sunlight, moisture, and nutrients by crowding of other trees especially shade tolerant species. If you want to read more crap than you want to know, check out the thread The Mighty Acorn

 

[TreeDaddy]

......But its "good crap" well worth a read......

bill

 

[weekender21]

Wow, the mighty acorn thread is a good read. Now I'm really confused what I should be planting!

 

[dogghr]

Wow, the mighty acorn thread is a good read. Now I'm really confused what I should be planting!

After hunt season is over maybe we will crank it back up where we left before discussion of fire and its need in promoting the white oak and on to how to manage for a better acorn producing forest.

 

[weekender21]

After hunt season is over maybe we will crank it back up where we left before discussion of fire and its need in promoting the white oak and on to how to manage for a better acorn producing forest.

That would be great! I recently purchased several species of oak seedlings in an effort to see which ones do well on my property (White, Chinkapin, Cherrybark, Swamp Chestnut, Swamp White, Bur Oak and a Shumard/Willow hybrid). I'd love to learn more about which species to plant and why. This site is an endless source for wildlife habitat education!

 

[TreeDaddy]

After hunt season is over maybe we will crank it back up where we left before discussion of fire and its need in promoting the white oak and on to how to manage for a better acorn producing forest.

will hold you to that

bill

 

[almanac12]

What I have read is that all 3 need a soil pH below 7.0.

Much of my property is poorly drained bottomland. In my lowest wettest spots, soil pH 6.4 - 6.8, muck soil, swamp white oak has amazed me. I have a bottomland spot that's a little better drained, but not well drained. Soils are clayey, pH is 6.5. White oak are doing well there. Tried some red oak in the same spot, they're doing poor. Canopy is pretty open. The site was dominated by ash before EAB moved through. Now all the ash are dead/dying. The white oaks are more shade tolerant and have the best ability to come back from the roots. Deer figured out how to push over my tree tubes and mowed down the site. The white oaks came back, even with heavy weed cover, and I was able to save a bunch of them. We had all time record setting spring and summer rains this year. The white and swamp white oaks survived. All of my seedlings came from the WI DNR, they were nothing special.

I have 4 northern red oak in my yard, which is very well drained sandy loam, neutral pH. It's dry. They're up to 20 - 30 feet at 30 years of age. The trees that get a little more moisture are substantially bigger.

So on my properties, it seems like the swamp white oaks love moisture (the MN DNR rates it as FACW+) and tolerates wet conditions. White oak like moist, at least somewhat drained lower spots. But they don't tolerate water inundated soils like SWO. The red oak like upland sites with moderate moisture and good - very good drainage. They will tolerate dry conditions, but growth is delayed.

 

[almanac12]

Red Oak grows best in fertile, sandy loam soils. White Oak does best on well-drained soils, but will tolerate dry poor upland sites. Swamp White Oak grow best in the low hills and stream bottoms; most tolerate of the three you mentioned to get their feet week.
The oak that I think that gets over looked the most is the Bur Oak. I love the Bur Oak's versatility. It'll grow anywhere; from dry uplands to the wet lowlands. I understand if you are planting for future harvest the Bur isn't the top choice of the logger. But the Bur Oak adds diversity to your forest that produces large acorns.

I planted red maple, hackberry, yellow birch, and bur oak in a poorly drained spot on my property. The Bur oak were 2" - 4" plugs. With the record setting rains, the bur oaks by far did the best. They had far better survival than the red maple, which are supposed to be swamp trees, and were planted at 18" - 24" with huge roots. Some had put on 4" - 6" of growth in July in soils that were completely inundated with water. Amazingly tough trees. Hopefully they make it through the winter!

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

Does anyone know what extremes that oaks won't tolerate? I have absolutely no naturally occurring oaks around me for miles, and I can't figure out why. The soil is a well drained sandy loam with a natural PH of around 5.5. I've planted a few oaks in the past couple of years and they seem to be doing fine. Maples grow very well here if that helps.


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[KDdid]

Does anyone know what extremes that oaks won't tolerate? I have absolutely no naturally occurring oaks around me for miles, and I can't figure out why. The soil is a well drained sandy loam with a natural PH of around 5.5. I've planted a few oaks in the past couple of years and they seem to be doing fine. Maples grow very well here if that helps.


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You are certainly not too cold- last year I grouse hunted with friends in da UP, about 3 miles south of Lake Superior, and Red Oaks were the largest hardwoods in the area.

 

[shedder]

Does anyone know what extremes that oaks won't tolerate? I have absolutely no naturally occurring oaks around me for miles, and I can't figure out why. The soil is a well drained sandy loam with a natural PH of around 5.5. I've planted a few oaks in the past couple of years and they seem to be doing fine. Maples grow very well here if that helps.
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I have noticed that as well on the range maps. I have not seen a good reason for it. American chestnut does well there so you would think oaks would. The glacial plains there should be ideal for many oaks.