Stone Branch, build it, they will come.

[George]

A beautiful buck. I'm going to stick my neck out and provide the opinion that he's not a day older than 3 1/2. which, if I'm correct, would give him a lot of room to grow, more so than a 6 yr old anyway.

Refer back to page 81 post # 1601 I was calling him 4 years old back in 2019. I followed him as a 10 through the years with the funky, higher set left brow tine, which he is starting to exhibit in 2019. I was confusing myself yesterday when I called him 4-6. Like the Old 8 and Original OG who both got shot this year, he was here when I arrived. He could have been 3 in 2019 which would make him 8, I believe him to be 9. He has spent more time on my ground this year. Next year could be our year.

G

 

[Mennoniteman]

Refer back to page 81 post # 1601 I was calling him 4 years old back in 2019. I followed him as a 10 through the years with the funky, higher set left brow tine, which he is starting to exhibit in 2019. I was confusing myself yesterday when I called him 4-6. Like the Old 8 and Original OG who both got shot this year, he was here when I arrived. He could have been 3 in 2019 which would make him 8, I believe him to be 9. He has spent more time on my ground this year. Next year could be our year.

G

You have so many nice bucks, I get confused by them. Strictly looking at the pics in #1659, he might be the 2019 buck in #1601, or he might not. On a closer look at #1659, he's too chunky for 3 1/2, but he could be 4 1/2 with that build. Most older bucks have a few drops, stickers, or kickers by 5 or 6, and his back doesn't have the sag of 8 years old either.

 

[George]

You have so many nice bucks, I get confused by them. Strictly looking at the pics in #1659, he might be the 2019 buck in #1601, or he might not. On a closer look at #1659, he's too chunky for 3 1/2, but he could be 4 1/2 with that build. Most older bucks have a few drops, stickers, or kickers by 5 or 6, and his back doesn't have the sag of 8 years old either.

Believe me, I get confused too. It has taken me 5 years to get some of these bucks sorted out. If I am correct about the Big 10, he now has a name, he has always been, since maturity, a straight 10 with no junk. I always passed 4 1/2 year olds in Iowa because I knew that they would come back next year with some junk, and they did. However, I have seen it go the other way too, Homeboy 10 had a relatively uneven rack with a 3-4" extra base point 2 years ago. He lost the extra point the following year and came back a very symmetrical 10 this year. I believe back sway and belly sag may be more pronounced in agricultural bucks. Here on the plateau, i can't tell the difference between a 4-5 year old and 8-9 year old based on sway and sag.





G

 

[George]

By the time that these bucks reach 8-9 years old, their racks are going downhill, shorter main beams, shorter tines, but one thing that these infrared pictures don't show very well is 6-7" bases.



G

 

[Mennoniteman]

That's an interesting concept, that agricultural bucks could have more sag in their backbone as they age. Maybe your hill bucks lead a more sedentary lifestyle? Or maybe different subspecies have different skeletal traits?
Going back through your pictures I'm pretty much in agreement with your identifications, it's amazing how several of your bucks barely show any aging in several years time beyond adding some bulk..
As far as identifying deer by rack character, from what I've seen in observing different bucks as they age I'm of the opinion that they very much carry their identity on their head, and after a buck hits 2 years old I've almost always been able to make a definitive identity of the particular buck based on their antlers from the year before, and the new antlers usually are about a carbon copy of the year before with more size, mass, points and character added to the same outline. I have a lot of habitat managers showing showing me deer pics, and I'm convinced that there's a lot of misidentifed bucks each year because a somewhat similar deer was around and people want it to be the same deer when it's very obviously not.
Anyway, managing deer and watching them is a lot of fun, no matter if we always get it right or not.

 

[George]

That's an interesting concept, that agricultural bucks could have more sag in their backbone as they age. Maybe your hill bucks lead a more sedentary lifestyle? Or maybe different subspecies have different skeletal traits?
Going back through your pictures I'm pretty much in agreement with your identifications, it's amazing how several of your bucks barely show any aging in several years time beyond adding some bulk..
As far as identifying deer by rack character, from what I've seen in observing different bucks as they age I'm of the opinion that they very much carry their identity on their head, and after a buck hits 2 years old I've almost always been able to make a definitive identity of the particular buck based on their antlers from the year before, and the new antlers usually are about a carbon copy of the year before with more size, mass, points and character added to the same outline. I have a lot of habitat managers showing showing me deer pics, and I'm convinced that there's a lot of misidentifed bucks each year because a somewhat similar deer was around and people want it to be the same deer when it's very obviously not.
Anyway, managing deer and watching them is a lot of fun, no matter if we always get it right or not.

You seemingly just don't disappoint me with your insightful feedback and in providing me more food for thought. The thought of differing subspecies has long perplexed me. In Iowa, just west of the big muddy, I held the notion that I was dealing with plains subspecies and borealis. How could my biggest racked animals hang at 170 pounds and a year younger and smaller racked animal be hanging at 200lb +. My 3 mature bucks killed in Kentucky are all hanging 170 + or - 5lb and forty miles south, my friend's bucks are all hanging 200+. I tend to believe nowadays that it is more to do with variability of individuals within the same subspecies. I think that on the plateau, bucks lead a leaner as opposed to sedentary lifestyle. Perhaps more reclusive. I made the comment that around here bucks just do not fight, and I caught some flack. Oh, I'm sure bucks do fight, and I have plenty of pictures of young bucks sparing but I have only seen one buck that usually showed up year to year with broken tines. These mature bucks around here just are not broken up and full of puncher wounds and old scars like most of the bucks that I killed in Iowa. 6 year olds in Iowa were most likely in pretty bad shape and on their last leg. Here in Kentucky these 8-9 year old deer look like they could go another 5 years.
I do agree, while easily mistaken, certain antler characteristics are about the only way to follow deer year to year.

The misplaced G2 buck is my Christmas present this year, I have a pile of pictures of him every day from the 23rd to the 28th. He is hanging pretty tight to my ground. If I am correct in assuming that he is the young 10, 3?, from last year, I did so putting as much or more emphasis on his body than on his head gear. It should be interesting following him for perhaps the next 5 years.






G

 

[Mennoniteman]

You seemingly just don't disappoint me with your insightful feedback and in providing me more food for thought. The thought of differing subspecies has long perplexed me. In Iowa, just west of the big muddy, I held the notion that I was dealing with plains subspecies and borealis. How could my biggest racked animals hang at 170 pounds and a year younger and smaller racked animal be hanging at 200lb +. My 3 mature bucks killed in Kentucky are all hanging 170 + or - 5lb and forty miles south, my friend's bucks are all hanging 200+. I tend to believe nowadays that it is more to do with variability of individuals within the same subspecies. I think that on the plateau, bucks lead a leaner as opposed to sedentary lifestyle. Perhaps more reclusive. I made the comment that around here bucks just do not fight, and I caught some flack. Oh, I'm sure bucks do fight, and I have plenty of pictures of young bucks sparing but I have only seen one buck that usually showed up year to year with broken tines. These mature bucks around here just are not broken up and full of puncher wounds and old scars like most of the bucks that I killed in Iowa. 6 year olds in Iowa were most likely in pretty bad shape and on their last leg. Here in Kentucky these 8-9 year old deer look like they could go another 5 years.
I do agree, while easily mistaken, certain antler characteristics are about the only way to follow deer year to year.

The misplaced G2 buck is my Christmas present this year, I have a pile of pictures of him every day from the 23rd to the 28th. He is hanging pretty tight to my ground. If I am correct in assuming that he is the young 10, 3?, from last year, I did so putting as much or more emphasis on his body than on his head gear. It should be interesting following him for perhaps the next 5 years.


View attachment 29054

View attachment 29053

G

He (the Christmas buck) is hanging close to your ground due to the improved habitat. I've been keeping an eye on your efforts with your chainsaw work and the time is coming when you will reap the fruit of your labor. A mature buck likes to live in a house with 4 walls made of briars.

 

[E_308]

Those hills keep them in shape unlike those corn fed flat land deer you used to have! 170 pound deer are easier to load in the ranger anyway. I always like the post season card pulls to see what made it through.

 

[George]

Those hills keep them in shape unlike those corn fed flat land deer you used to have! 170 pound deer are easier to load in the ranger anyway. I always like the post season card pulls to see what made it through.

Pro staffer Justin on the lease next to me sent me this picture of Homeboy 10. I told him that HB 10 was 5 years old and 145". I then sent pictures of previous years to support my estimate on age. I could be wrong, he could have been 6 years old. I wasn't wrong on score, he was gross 148.5 and net 144.25. Anyhow there's some belly sag.



Back in the saddle. Up on my north line I just had more hickories taking up space than I needed.











It turned into about a 150 yard swath of destruction, 35 hickories bent over.



The timber here is pretty worthless but the remaining hickories, oaks - black, red, and white dump a lot of mast. My goals were to create some visual block between my line and bedding down in the ditch.



And make some more sunshine.



I had to chuckle when I looked at the stand that I placed up there this fall, it's probably not 17' off the ground. It is a good stand however, the black oak that it is in was the go to tree for acorns and the deer were oblivious to my presence. The hickories in the background have since been victimized.



G

 

[George]

It's a wrap on the lower south facing slope bedding area. First a reminder of what it looked like before. I love this job.

















G

 

[George]

Work zone from above, some folks think that I'm ruining my woodland.









G

 

[Mennoniteman]

Work zone from above, some folks think that I'm ruining my woodland.

View attachment 29088

View attachment 29085

View attachment 29086

View attachment 29087

G

Far from it, you are actually drastically improving your woodland by thinning it and removing the undesirable species. The only thing that I see wrong in the aerial photos is that you haven't thinned it enough to keep the upper story open for more than 10 years, to let the amount of sunlight to the ground that is optimal for maximum growth more spacing would be ideal. But I know that you are working with the state forester and his limitations, and I really like the way it looks for the time being.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Far from it, you are actually drastically improving your woodland by thinning it and removing the undesirable species. The only thing that I see wrong in the aerial photos is that you haven't thinned it enough to keep the upper story open for more than 10 years, to let the amount of sunlight to the ground that is optimal for maximum growth more spacing would be ideal. But I know that you are working with the state forester and his limitations, and I really like the way it looks for the time being.

My forester was working with two different thinning densities, A and B, and here are satellite pictures of the two different cuttings 4 years after cutting. I'd be interested in seeing how summertime aerial photos of your project compare to this timber stand improvement.

 

[George]

Far from it, you are actually drastically improving your woodland by thinning it and removing the undesirable species. The only thing that I see wrong in the aerial photos is that you haven't thinned it enough to keep the upper story open for more than 10 years, to let the amount of sunlight to the ground that is optimal for maximum growth more spacing would be ideal. But I know that you are working with the state forester and his limitations, and I really like the way it looks for the time being.

Your lesser stocked zone looks to be approaching, by definition, a woodland, which is what I'm working towards in my recent work area. My neighbor doesn't understand that by removing inferior hickories and releasing better hickories that I will achieve greater nut production, not reduced nut production. Same as what you are doing for your crop trees for optimal timber production. I do understand, my neighbors are squirrel hunters and if a squirrel can't traverse 164 acres off the ground from tree to tree, then the forest has been ruined.

The grand total this past season of deer harvested on the 1,200 acre lease north and east of me between 6 hunters was 1 buck, and 2 does. The buck and 1 doe came up out of my work zone and were shot off a corn feeder 10' over my north property line. Can we draw any inferences here?

G

 

[George]

My forester was working with two different thinning densities, A and B, and here are satellite pictures of the two different cuttings 4 years after cutting. I'd be interested in seeing how summertime aerial photos of your project compare to this timber stand improvement.

View attachment 29089View attachment 29090

My guess, 90 and 50, tally trees per acre

 

[KSQ2]

Your lesser stocked zone looks to be approaching, by definition, a woodland, which is what I'm working towards in my recent work area. My neighbor doesn't understand that by removing inferior hickories and releasing better hickories that I will achieve greater nut production, not reduced nut production. Same as what you are doing for your crop trees for optimal timber production. I do understand, my neighbors are squirrel hunters and if a squirrel can't traverse 164 acres off the ground from tree to tree, then the forest has been ruined.

The grand total this past season of deer harvested on the 1,200 acre lease north and east of me between 6 hunters was 1 buck, and 2 does. The buck and 1 doe came up out of my work zone and were shot off a corn feeder 10' over my north property line. Can we draw any inferences here?

G

The magic of TSI

 

[Mennoniteman]

Your lesser stocked zone looks to be approaching, by definition, a woodland, which is what I'm working towards in my recent work area. My neighbor doesn't understand that by removing inferior hickories and releasing better hickories that I will achieve greater nut production, not reduced nut production. Same as what you are doing for your crop trees for optimal timber production. I do understand, my neighbors are squirrel hunters and if a squirrel can't traverse 164 acres off the ground from tree to tree, then the forest has been ruined.

The grand total this past season of deer harvested on the 1,200 acre lease north and east of me between 6 hunters was 1 buck, and 2 does. The buck and 1 doe came up out of my work zone and were shot off a corn feeder 10' over my north property line. Can we draw any inferences here?

G

Speaking from experience, the hilarious part is that those neighbors are going to realize what you did about 5 years after it actually happened. By around 8 years from now they are going to be saying, all the deer in the neighborhood are living in your jungle and won't even poke their nose out. But the truth will be, you didn't steal anybodies deer, because there were none in that desert in the first place, you grew your own.
How are you able to keep those squirrel hunters out of your bedding areas?

 

[George]

The magic of TSI

Last year, first phase was TSI. This year is FSI, Forest Stand Improvement, and some WSI, Woodland Stand Improvement, thrown in.

Speaking from experience, the hilarious part is that those neighbors are going to realize what you did about 5 years after it actually happened. By around 8 years from now they are going to be saying, all the deer in the neighborhood are living in your jungle and won't even poke their nose out. But the truth will be, you didn't steal anybodies deer, because there were none in that desert in the first place, you grew your own.
How are you able to keep those squirrel hunters out of your bedding areas?

My neighbors are good neighbors, and they respect my property rights. We have differing land management philosophies. They believe that driving 4 wheelers around and shooting squirrels doesn't affect deer. And me, I make 97% of my property hunting season inviolate refuge because I know how human presence affects deer, particularly mature bucks. My neighbors have benefited from my habitat efforts and they have said as much. The hills have eyes, and you just cannot drive up on to the plateau undetected.

My guess, 90 and 50, tally trees per acre

Mennoniteman, I'm wondering what your current stocking rate is in areas A and B?

G

 

[Mennoniteman]

Last year, first phase was TSI. This year is FSI, Forest Stand Improvement, and some WSI, Woodland Stand Improvement, thrown in.



My neighbors are good neighbors, and they respect my property rights. We have differing land management philosophies. They believe that driving 4 wheelers around and shooting squirrels doesn't affect deer. And me, I make 97% of my property hunting season inviolate refuge because I know how human presence affects deer, particularly mature bucks. My neighbors have benefited from my habitat efforts and they have said as much. The hills have eyes, and you just cannot drive up on to the plateau undetected.



Mennoniteman, I'm wondering what your current stocking rate is in areas A and B?

G

My forester spouted those numbers four years ago but I didn't pay much heed as the numbers were nonnegotiable anyway. I was just so thrilled that I was going to get a lot of habitat work done in a short time without lifting a finger, and get paid well to do it, plus get a lot of road improvements thrown in for free that I didn't care what it looked like. Then, as you can see in the photos, I observed that I was also getting a very professional acre count thrown in all for the same price!
I will see is if I can pull it up those numbers on my land management plan.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I really enjoy watching this project George. Is there any market at all out there for firewood? Or is Hickory even a good firewood? There's not much here, so I have no experience.

I go hard at my property after deer season. I've got a 40 surrounded by un-hunted land, so it hunts big. I subtract the outer 100 yards on three sides of my property from improvement (with some wiggle there), so that only leaves me around 12-15 acres to do intense chainsaw work. I typically take nearly everything down, with the exception of oaks, paper birch, yellow birch, basswood, conifers, and good shrubs.

I've got pockets of native swamp grass that respond amazing well to sunlight, and after the brush comes up, that grass stands 5-6' tall through hunting season. There are not deer trails in there, but deer tunnels. I've talked with a forester, and they told me I have nothing of value, and too small of acreage for them to even come with machines for the firewood. So I have free reign to manage for deer and good deeds alone.

Most of what I cut down is aspen, poplar, tag alder, diamond willow, and black ash. I've been trying to use all of my black ash for my own firewood needs, which isn't much. Then I make as much as I can for my neighbor to use for his home heat. He uses firewood as a primary, and he really likes the ash, especially when I do all the cutting and he's just got to pull up to a pile and take it away.