weekender21
Well-Known Member
Is the biological composition of cow saliva drastically different from deer saliva or do we have that one "licked" on food plots?
Regenerative Plotting
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Is the biological composition of cow saliva drastically different from deer saliva or do we have that one "licked" on food plots?
BenAllgood
Well-Known Member
There was a recent podcast talking about regenerative wildlife agriculture that talked a little about concentrating lots of deer in plots for the mob saliva effect. https://www.themeateater.com/listen...ative-wildlife-agriculture-with-jason-snavely
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I have a general policy of keeping my ties to famous people secret. It's what friends do. So I never name names.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I opened this and was going to listen till I saw it was over 2 hrs long. Guess I'm more of an instant gratification guy. Can anyone do a few bullet points? I'm especially interested in maintaining plots without herbicide
BenAllgood
Well-Known Member
I can list some probably tomorrow, but for the weeds without herbicides, he said it does take a while for the soil biology to start working, and chemicals can disrupt that biology. You just have to push through it. But, they also said each weed tells what the soil needs. And, you can provide it by feeding it the right plants.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
While I agree with this Steve Kenyon guy on the principle of using no fertilizer and herbicide, at this point in time science hasn't provided a viable alternative to using at least some herbicide and fertilizer to feed the world's 7 billion people. This man's mind is partially living in utopia, he's thinking that the dream we all share of "farming" 100% naturally and obtaining yields big enough to feed the world is reality today, when it's actually still only a concept that's not viable with the technology available today. When he says "Let me be blunt, our industry is wrong. There is no need to buy nutrients" he's showing his disconnection with reality, the reality being that if it were possible to grow 200 bushel corn without using fertilizer and herbicide the cost savings would be huge and the "industry" would be all over it. And he suggests grazing cows on organic pastures. This idea is great on a hobby farm, but if implemented large scale would lead to millions of people starving to death very quickly. Mr. Kenyon raises many warning flags early in the article when he says his way is right and the experts with college degrees telling farmers how to use fertilizer are wrong.
P.S. I just read another of Steve Kenyon's articles, Is Your Farm Repeatable?, and I have to give him credit, the article was spot on. So I've come to the conclusion that he's a very knowledgeable guy who just overemphasized a few things to make his point...
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weekender21
Well-Known Member
I listened to this podcast Friday. He's using a drill and roller crimper to avoid spraying. He does mention at one point that he's "not completely against" the use of herbicide initially in certain cases to get started. But, he's definitely not a proponent of herbicide and has decided to not to use any on his PA farm. He's also practicing no till and no herbicide on client properties. He referenced Gabe Brown a good bit.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
One of the underlying sermons of Dave and Gabe is to teach the world of how to manage their soils and proper grazing techniques and they can eventually feed themselves. Not required that we feed the world then. Long way to go.
We can observe within our own borders of mismanagement of the land from the status of the open lands of the west and the fires of Cali. The latter being a management disaster in their overcontrol of cattle and farming management. They shuttle water in concrete rivers to get it to the sea yet pump billlions of gallons from states away for use.
My 20 min ride to my farm is a picture without asking if farmers/cattlemen of how they are managing their soils. Especially evident in last years drought.
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catscratch
Well-Known Member
My take on the article was a little different. I saw it as a more holistic approach in that even weeds have a purpose and before taking a drastic step the consequences should be thought out. And... that the nature and purpose of those weeds might have a positive for us. I was using chicory for mineral mining long before I knew deer liked it, but it would have been a "weed" in our bean fields had it shown up spontaneously. Every plant is there because it should be. Early succession looks different than mature forest or thick grasslands. As habitat managers I think there is value in that message for both soil health and input costs.
Conversely; I wouldn't expect a farmer to switch to that approach and see yields anywhere close to what they were having the previous year. It would take decades to figure it out and as you pointed out the immediate losses would be devastating for the world (and the farmer).
Jason Broom
Well-Known Member
I think it's very important to remember that some plants are there because they are introduced invasives, or because of some other misguided effort by man. We do need to be cautious, lest the cure be worse than the illness, and I believe many chemicals are sprayed without this consideration.
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Jon
Active Member
I likely listen, Snavely is a smart dude. I entrust his experiences looking at plants and studying how they interact and the likely compounds they exchange in the soil is far beyond what most of us think about at times. I don't see myself getting that much more researchy into this... but we have all spoke about the C:N ratios, and other biological components. I think at times their have been discussion on compounds and understanding the interactions and benefits (there has to be a soil scientist on here that can enlighten us). The bottom line topic to me is I am trying to limit adding synthetic fertilizers if I can (which so far so good on one property), its an expense Id like to save on. Variety in species and understanding some of these compounds and interactions is really the key to that, and weighing the deer "likeability" factor. Id also argue you can spray "organic" herbicides rather than normal herbicides (not sure Jason got into that), but its a big expense going that route and for most that's outside the realm of reasonable.
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weekender21
Well-Known Member
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Oh man, invasives suck the life right out of me! Thistles, Johnson Grass, Honey Locus, and Palmer Amaranth. I'm still using chemicals whole heartily in an effort to get rid of some of these guys. I am finding some solace in managing some of these plants without some chemical though. Cattle love JG and will keep it short and almost non-existent if you let them. Thistle in pasture is typically a sign of ground disturbance, shallow (rocky) soil, and a lack of insects that prey on the plant. Palmer is controlled by diversity, no tillage, and no spraying at the wrong time (I still spray to plant). As said before, I think there is a lot to trying to understand each plants purpose and what it brings to the table. In no means am I stating that I have it 100% figured out, or that farmers could make the switch and still be productive enough to survive. I'm just figuring some stuff out and having good results with it. My understanding of the consequences of my actions is going up. Maybe someday I'll a tenth of it down pat. Most likely I will end up understanding this stuff as well as I do women...
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I typed a long winded response twice and deleted it. I'm struggling to get to my point.
I don't see the fragmented farm economy surviving. It just can't happen. When we need to figure this out, we will. We'll muddle through the problems until we're forced to confront them. And the farm services monopoly will most certainly collapse.
Until then, we'll continue to look at the social costs of today's system as separate and unrelated phenomenons like disease, dirty water, erosion, bee collapse, dead lakes, weeds, lack of wildlife, rural brain drain, banking risk, and the land bubble.
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Long winded is good, we're on the same side, and people need to discuss these things to find answers. I know exactly what you are saying, and I'm in agreement with it. The mysterious honeybee disappearance in a lot of areas is a huge warning that's being mostly ignored. We need to keep looking for better answers in ecology before our entire ecosystem is ruined, but using faulty info will get us nowhere and only leads us to mass starvation. Having grown up on a farm, have farming friends, neighbors, and relatives, also, I have a good friend with a 9 year doctorate in soils biology, and I build for farmers all the time, so I'm very connected to agriculture, and believe me, this guy has made a few egregious statements about farmers not needing fertilizer, as per my other dissertion. I, as much as anybody, wish that it were truth, all of us land managers are constantly looking for new methods of planting and growing crops without using chemicals and genetically altered plants, but anyone with a layman's understanding of current ag technology and economics knows that we're not there yet. Farmers (mostly the younger ones) are constantly trying new methods on small test fields, often with ideas put forth by ag extension programs and state universities, to try and get that big break in growing profitable crops with these new methods. So I don't buy the argument for an instant that it's possible but farmers aren't doing it because big chemical companies control the narrative. When I ask commercial farmers why they don't try some of these proposed notill methods without herbicide and fertilizer, everyone's answer is the same; what, do you want me to not have a crop and go bankrupt?
Grain cover crops with a notill roller and cornplanter is the most successful modern notill method that uses almost no chemicals, but even this method still has liquid fertilizer tanks on the planting unit, although at reduced levels. It's just very difficult to remove a reasonable harvest and not put some replacement nutrients back. By the way, he mentioned cattle grazing, but open range beef is not even close to the answer to feed the world, it wouldn't be possible to grow even a small percentage of the nutrition required, and third world countries cannot afford to eat beef. They survive on corn, wheat, soybeans and rice, all of which need some nutrients to grow.
So while these niche ideas and pipe dreams are enjoyable to contemplate and visualize as the future, they just don't work on a commercial scale.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Invasives. Lets open a can of worms ( a play on words there if you allow). So what is an invasive? A plant which we deem didn't exist in a certain time frame we have chosen? A decade, a century, a hundred millineums? The land was once a barren mass so there fore all plants in their own way are invasive.
So how do these plants we deem invasive get a foothold? Was the soil and its infrastucture performing at its maximum level of natural micro and macro flora? Or had it been abused, dried, oxygenated, smothered in various chemicals, covered with repeated monoculture crops or perhaps the occasional allowing to fallow? Is the invasive a transition meant to be, to correct an ignored, underlying problem,regardless of how it was introduce? Do we then feed the demon by pouring more chemical and mechanical processes in our effort to rid the demon, while all the while allowing and continuing to destroy the very thing we screwed up to begin with allowing its presence? Why do we spray one Thistle and 6 more pop up?
Maybe what we choose to believe is the proper plants in a proper area are in no way what should be there under the circumstances in the eons of time. Maybe rather than jump and buy, or mow, or till, or cry, we should change the soil and plant structure surrounding the evil plant and let nature do what it has done long before man began correcting her way of thinking.
We are but tick of a second in the sands of time, yet we manage as if our lifetime or 10 lifetimes really have much affect in the grand scheme of things.
You guys thot the ramblings of the Mountain Man were to be no more. Sorry to disappoint.
So how do these plants we deem invasive get a foothold? Was the soil and its infrastucture performing at its maximum level of natural micro and macro flora? Or had it been abused, dried, oxygenated, smothered in various chemicals, covered with repeated monoculture crops or perhaps the occasional allowing to fallow? Is the invasive a transition meant to be, to correct an ignored, underlying problem,regardless of how it was introduce? Do we then feed the demon by pouring more chemical and mechanical processes in our effort to rid the demon, while all the while allowing and continuing to destroy the very thing we screwed up to begin with allowing its presence? Why do we spray one Thistle and 6 more pop up?
Maybe what we choose to believe is the proper plants in a proper area are in no way what should be there under the circumstances in the eons of time. Maybe rather than jump and buy, or mow, or till, or cry, we should change the soil and plant structure surrounding the evil plant and let nature do what it has done long before man began correcting her way of thinking.
We are but tick of a second in the sands of time, yet we manage as if our lifetime or 10 lifetimes really have much affect in the grand scheme of things.
You guys thot the ramblings of the Mountain Man were to be no more. Sorry to disappoint.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
I'll have to strongly disagree with that last statement. Its hard to change a pattern both the mental and financial aspect. I certainly have been on large farming operations that have achieved such. Its not easy, and indeed perhaps at times initially, expensive process. But it could be and has been done.
DocHolladay
Well-Known Member
Gabe Brown talks about growing crops without synthetics all the time. Now, it took him close to 20 years to get everything the way he wants, but he will still spray new land, as needed, to control “forbes” as he calls them. In his area, the county average for corn is 100bu/acre and he is at 127bu/acre so it can be done. It’s just that farmers can’t afford to quit “traditional” farming and expect their crops to produce a profit right out of the gate. If they can be convinced to start with one field, whether it is 10 acres or 50 acres, that’s a start. What I notice locally(it’s common in a lot of places) is that farmers will plant WW to help the soil and have something to produce money between fall and spring. I don’t know if they don’t think about it or don’t care, but all the work that was done by the WW to mine nutrients, earthworms, Carbon, etc, gets combined and rolled off the field into straw and they are back to where they started after fall harvest. I have talked to a local friend/farmer about no-tilling into his residue on one of his small fields. He no-tills, but he always disks before hand to clean up the trash I mentioned removing his row cleaners to minimize hair pinning, but he is set in his ways about it so I don’t push it. He keeps talking about his son and grand boys not farming after he dies and I told him to put me in the Will and I would keep it going. Lol. He has close to 500 acres of fields and woods.
I’m just kinda rambling out the side of my head, but things can change. It just has to happen the same way we eat elephants and let others see that it works, but takes a little time for the soil to recoup from the damage done and time for the farmer to change his mind set.
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MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
The bee thing is fascinating. My hunting land is in an area far away from farming and urbanites. I've just begun to alter the natural landscape with a chainsaw, mower, and seeding. I counted native flowers this year, and got upwards of 30 or so on my land if I remember right. In my plot that I converted to white clover and a ton of other things (including barley), the bee activity out there was almost frightening. And there were all kinds big, little, hairy, smooth, black, yellow etc.
I tried digging on the edge of my plot with a mini excavator, and hit a ground nest on the first scoop in two spots. I quit while I was ahead.
I tried digging on the edge of my plot with a mini excavator, and hit a ground nest on the first scoop in two spots. I quit while I was ahead.
