Regenerative Plotting

[MarkDarvin]

I found a good read on thistle and gold finch last night. Last time I was up up north, I saw a gold finch working my thistle patch where the excavator dug out a stump and left me a slab of barren clay. In case the pic is too small to read, here's a link to it. Page 4:

https://www.minnesotaforestry.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/MFA_AugSept18_Print_WEBFinal.pdf

 

[MarkDarvin]

Anybody ever focus on moisture management as part of your food plot plant? I struggle with extremely wet spring soil. I have been working towards improving my soil's ability to absorb water faster in spring. While not swamp, mine is slow to drain, and it's slow enough that it kills winter cereals after snow melt.

The topic is very important to me because I've had many failures in the past due to heavy rain as well as no rain in the same place. It's also important because my weed management plan relies heavily on my ability to get cereals going before warm season weeds start.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Moisture is easy to get rid of, just dig in a few tile lines. Or ridge the dirt in the fall and plant on the ridge tops. If there's a hard pan a deep ripper can do wonders for drainage. When we talk moisture management here were always talking moisture conservation, such as rolling rye and planting no-till into it. Montana farmers will sometimes only plant a crop of cereal grain in an unirrigated field every other year because there's not enough rain to grow a crop every year. I'm always looking for more ideas on conserving moisture.

 

[MarkDarvin]

Moisture is easy to get rid of, just dig in a few tile lines. Or ridge the dirt in the fall and plant on the ridge tops. If there's a hard pan a deep ripper can do wonders for drainage. When we talk moisture management here were always talking moisture conservation, such as rolling rye and planting no-till into it. Montana farmers will sometimes only plant a crop of cereal grain in an unirrigated field every other year because there's not enough rain to grow a crop every year. I'm always looking for more ideas on conserving moisture.

Where my land is located, the state does not allow any drainage (ditching or tiling) unless you are farming. To make matters worse, I'm plotting in the low spot. That's where I could get land cleared with the equipment I had and in the location I wanted. Where my family farms, there are guys flooding out despite having tile. Where it's down 4' over heavy clay (40+ CEC) the worked dirt has cemented shut and water either ponds or runs off.

 

[Jason Broom]

One of our properties has hard pan clay about 2' down and another is beach sand, save a few lichens and the thatch I've helped apply. I face both challenges every year. One property simply can't be worked until it dries out some and the other could be worked 15 minutes after a hard rain. Tillage radish for one and only THE most drought-resistant plantings for the other. This year, we had almost too much rain for the Fall plots; the wetter ground is doing "OK", but the sandy plots are absolutely beautiful! The years when both do really well are few and far between. Adapt and pivot.

 

[Mennoniteman]

One of our properties has hard pan clay about 2' down and another is beach sand, save a few lichens and the thatch I've helped apply. I face both challenges every year. One property simply can't be worked until it dries out some and the other could be worked 15 minutes after a hard rain. Tillage radish for one and only THE most drought-resistant plantings for the other. This year, we had almost too much rain for the Fall plots; the wetter ground is doing "OK", but the sandy plots are absolutely beautiful! The years when both do really well are few and far between. Adapt and pivot.

I saw that rain you guys were getting in September and nobody else was!

 

[MarkDarvin]

One of our properties has hard pan clay about 2' down and another is beach sand, save a few lichens and the thatch I've helped apply. I face both challenges every year. One property simply can't be worked until it dries out some and the other could be worked 15 minutes after a hard rain. Tillage radish for one and only THE most drought-resistant plantings for the other. This year, we had almost too much rain for the Fall plots; the wetter ground is doing "OK", but the sandy plots are absolutely beautiful! The years when both do really well are few and far between. Adapt and pivot.

What do you plant in your drought prone plot?

 

[MarkDarvin]

Heard an interesting concept over the weekend while driving: Secondary metabolites

How is it that certain things grow so well in one area, and are completely defoliated by pests in another. Some species that come to mind are pumpkins, brassicas, apple trees, and plum trees. I tried to plant some plum trees many years ago. The ones I dug up and re-planted kept getting defoliated by some kind of bug. But a few hundred yards away at the parent's microsite, that same parent tree grew on without a single leaf eaten.

Why?

(not saying this is the answer, but worth pondering). Is there something to the exact site where something naturally carved out a place in the landscape? Is it in the soil? Is it in the plant array around it?

http://www.biologyreference.com/Re-Se/Secondary-Metabolites-in-Plants.html

 

[Bowman]

One of our properties has hard pan clay about 2' down and another is beach sand, save a few lichens and the thatch I've helped apply. I face both challenges every year. One property simply can't be worked until it dries out some and the other could be worked 15 minutes after a hard rain. Tillage radish for one and only THE most drought-resistant plantings for the other. This year, we had almost too much rain for the Fall plots; the wetter ground is doing "OK", but the sandy plots are absolutely beautiful! The years when both do really well are few and far between. Adapt and pivot.

What are you doing in the sandy plots? I have plenty of sand also.

 

[Chipdasqrrl]

Heard an interesting concept over the weekend while driving: Secondary metabolites

How is it that certain things grow so well in one area, and are completely defoliated by pests in another. Some species that come to mind are pumpkins, brassicas, apple trees, and plum trees. I tried to plant some plum trees many years ago. The ones I dug up and re-planted kept getting defoliated by some kind of bug. But a few hundred yards away at the parent's microsite, that same parent tree grew on without a single leaf eaten.

Why?

(not saying this is the answer, but worth pondering). Is there something to the exact site where something naturally carved out a place in the landscape? Is it in the soil? Is it in the plant array around it?

http://www.biologyreference.com/Re-Se/Secondary-Metabolites-in-Plants.html

View attachment 17561

To add to the secondary metabolites topic-

Plants can be put at a disadvantage when planted on their own, without any members of the same species nearby.
The moment a bug takes a bite, or even lands on a leaf, defensive compounds (secondary metabolites) are produced, and volatiles are released into the air to signal the presence of that bug.
Members of the same species (or even other species) pick up on the signals, and start to produce defensive compounds and volatiles of their own to warn their neighbors as well.
Some plants even release volatiles designed to attract the predators or the pests that are attacking the plants.
Moral of the story: Provide your Apple trees with some friends


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[catscratch]

To add to the secondary metabolites topic-

Plants can be put at a disadvantage when planted on their own, without any members of the same species nearby.
The moment a bug takes a bite, or even lands on a leaf, defensive compounds (secondary metabolites) are produced, and volatiles are released into the air to signal the presence of that bug.
Members of the same species (or even other species) pick up on the signals, and start to produce defensive compounds and volatiles of their own to warn their neighbors as well.
Moral of the story: Provide your Apple trees with some friends


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One of my favorite movies of all time is based on this... "The Happening". The first time I watched it I had an aha moment much like I did when I watched "The 6th Sense", only this was cooler because of the biological implications.

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[MarkDarvin]

Been working my way through a soils book in the office. Came across the first measured experiment I’ve seen showing the unlocking power of biology on soil stable nutrients.

The quick read is a healthy biology will deliver all kinds of nutrients that are already present in most soils. Here’s the page and chart from the book.

Forget the section to the right. Focus on the first two columns. For all the things we don’t normally talk about, look at how much more gets into the plant due to a functioning biome.

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[catscratch]

Been working my way through a soils book in the office. Came across the first measured experiment I’ve seen showing the unlocking power of biology on soil stable nutrients.

The quick read is a healthy biology will deliver all kinds of nutrients that are already present in most soils. Here’s the page and chart from the book.

Forget the section to the right. Focus on the first two columns. For all the things we don’t normally talk about, look at how much more gets into the plant due to a functioning biome.

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Microbiome engineers such as bison (now we use cattle) introduce and spread your micro critters through poo and plant wound/saliva interactions. When used right animals can be as useful in building soils and diverse plant communities as any synthetics. Like you said, most of the stuff is already there it just needs unlocked.

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[TreeDaddy]

Mark,

Which book are you reading?

bill

 

[MarkDarvin]

Mark,

Which book are you reading?

bill

I nabbed it used off Amazon for under $11. Gotta love when they obsolete older versions of otherwise perfectly good textbooks.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I nabbed it used off Amazon for under $11. Gotta love when they obsolete older versions of otherwise perfectly good textbooks.

View attachment 17615

i'll be dipped

shelled out 70 bucks for newer version

bill

 

[MarkDarvin]

If you caught it in my other thread, you saw I am now working on the production and function of naturally produced organic acids in soils. Why? These things are likely the key to why natural areas grow with no addition of fertilizer from man. But how? I found a great (but challenging) read from the South African Journal of Botany. Stay with me now...

There are nearly unlimited sources of organic acid production in soil, and nearly as many functions for them. For simplicity, let's say they come from living plants, dead plant materials, fungus, bacteria, and organisms, and as a function of something happening to them. This is the natural and complex mining operation happening below ground that transforms rock into nutrients.

https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/...D5657FACCA93FE3EA6DE6DFC6A414FDC554324DD70FCB

(OA = Organic acid)



It's as if the plants can simply place an order for more of a given nutrient to be produced if it's lacking. This is absolutely fascinating! Where there's a need, the plants simply "order" more from the rock bank. The acid solubolizes the rock phosphate and it's transported back to the plant via the hyphae network.

Even more fascinating, this process is ongoing like a (yep gonna say it again) mining operation. Look at how short lived these acids are in the soil. They need to be continually produced or the fertility cycle would stop. This likely explains why fallow syndrome happens. These are the acids that solubolize phosphorus. If you've ever had purple corn in spring, here's your culprit.

 

[MarkDarvin]

You don't even need to read that paper. Here's the gist of it. The summary from the paper:

My takeaway from it is this. A diverse and balanced blend of green-all-season plants will regulate and perpetuate itself if it's allowed to. There is a complex economy of mangers, engineers, specialists, workers, utilities, and transport systems below ground that can make necessary adjustments to adverse conditions. This is why natural systems don't fail. They will steer themselves in whatever direction they need to, to not only survive, but also get stronger.

 

[catscratch]

You don't even need to read that paper. Here's the gist of it. The summary from the paper:
View attachment 17861
My takeaway from it is this. A diverse and balanced blend of green-all-season plants will regulate and perpetuate itself if it's allowed to. There is a complex economy of mangers, engineers, specialists, workers, utilities, and transport systems below ground that can make necessary adjustments to adverse conditions. This is why natural systems don't fail. They will steer themselves in whatever direction they need to, to not only survive, but also get stronger.

The trick is maintaining populations of plants that deer eat. I have natural systems that are doing great and have been untouched for decades... comprised of mostly fescue. Some timely spraying or a disc can reboot the system to diverse forbs with high protein, palatablity, and long term seed drops. Sooo, how does one figure out the plants to seed that beats, or out competes nature? How does one win with invaders? Are soil microbes that are adapted to the natural plants even capable of working with and mining with our new plants?

I would be curious what plant testing would show on your place. Maybe send a batch of native plants and a batch of plot plants in for protein and brix levels. Soil testing is great and all, but doesn't this all boil down to what's going into their stomachs?

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[catscratch]

PS - keep the great research and thought coming!

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