No-till drills

GivingBack

New Member
Ok guys, I after many years of working the ground to put in food plots I have finally pulled the trigger and bought a no-till drill. I scoured the internet for months looking at different brands and options and price and I ended up buying one of the newest brands on the scene. I got a Tar River no till drill Saya 507. It is marketed as a light duty drill, approximately 7 foot wide but the price was ultimately the deciding factor. I just couldn't justify spending 15 to 20k for a Genesis and certainly couldn't spend 30k for a basic AG model. Ok that said, what I want first is you guys to answer a couple easy questions and then we can move on to the more difficult ones later. Let's assume the soil is ideal ph, temperature, compaction, etc.......

#1 - What kind do you have?
#2 - How long have you been using it?
#3 - What has been the biggest challenge to get a good germination rate?
for example, weight of the drill? setting seeding depth? getting good closure? or adjusting the seed drop rate?

Ok boys, let's hear it.. tell me your stories....
 
I went cheap as well. I have a little 4' Kasco no-till versa-drill. I bought it used for $3K. It had lots of issues and required a hydraulic top-link to work well for me. I hook it to the top-link with a chain. That makes this 3-pt drill "float" like a pull behind. It does not like debris and the planting shoes clog easily. I ended up modifying them. It now works pretty well, but I rarely use it.

Why? I've changed the crops I plant. I've gone from large seed like beans and corn that require a drill for no-till to small seeded lower fertility requirement plants like buckwheat and sunn hemp for summer. My fall mix has always been small seeded lower fertility requirement plants, WR/CC/GHR/PTT with the brassica component under 2 lbs/ac. I find it much faster to no-till plant these by simply surface broadcasting, cultipacking, and spraying. My results are just as good. The higher cost of seed to compensate for germination rate differences between broadcasting and drilling are far offset by the cost of fertilizer that I'm no longer using.

I may find some use for it in the future, but for now, my drill is sitting idle.
 
I have a kasco also and wish the cultipacker worked better to cover seed.There are lots of Tar River people on habitat-talk.com
 
I tried to use a Kasco once, I'd broadcast by hand too. Not all machines are created equal. The Tar River is a great machine for the money.
 
I have a kasco also and wish the cultipacker worked better to cover seed.There are lots of Tar River people on habitat-talk.com
With the way my Kasco is suppose to work is that you change the length of the top link to adjust seed depth. I could either get correct seed depth or get good coverage from the cultipacker but it was tough to get both. I could get it right sometimes depending on soil conditions, but with that top link length, the cultipacker hung down so far that when I would make a turn, if the ground was not flat, the cultipacker would hit the ground and the chain would come off on impact.

My solution was to install the hydraulic toplink and chain. I can now shorten the toplink from the cab so the cultipacker is well above ground during transport. When I'm ready to plant, I lengthen the toplink so there is slack in the chain. This means the unit is sitting flat on the ground. I adjust seed depth by simply adding weight to the front trays if needed to plant seed deeper.

It works much better this way, but is still not like a big-boy drill that it is very heavy and uses limiting wheels to adjust seed depth. For 3K, I'm glad we bought it. It was very useful when planting large seed like beans and corn. I don't use it now, but depending on how things change with my approach in the future, I may want to use it again.

I also made other modification to it that make it more useful. I cut dividers out of sheet metal and use magnets to hold them in place between rows in the bin. That gives me the option of only planting some rows or putting different seed in each row. Since the seed metering system, which I like, can't be set by row, the usefulness of this is limited. I found it most useful if I wanted to plant a large seed in wider rows than the 9" fixed row width.

There are now a bunch of different drills out there marketed at food plotters. They were all too expensive to be practical for me.
 
I agree,I made a divider out of plywood so I can divide in 3 different types.I am going to fasten 2 flat pieces of steel,one on each side out past cultipacker and drag a piece of big chain to help cover seed
 
The other issue that the hydraulic toplink and chain solve are missed spots. If a field is not level, any 3pt drill lifts up a bit when the front of the tractor drops. With slack in the chain, the drill acts like a tow behind and follows the contour of the ground.
 
Ok, good stuff, as I suspected it appears closure and seed coverage is a problem. When I was researching the various models available I could tell everyone had their own idea about what works best. Even the AG boys like JD or GP that use large angled plastic wheels to collapse the side of the trench have invented upgraded all metal star wheels to try and improve this issue. There are several research papers written on the subject. All that said, I knew that when I bought the tar-river model I would have to modify it, because their solution is a spring loaded flat piece of metal, which will never reach the ground in a no till situation where you have a large amount of thatch build-up, or unlevel ground. I am working on a wheel type replacement. One interesting note is that tar-river sells a seed drill, though not listed as "no-till" and they attach a small cultipacker to the back, which doesn't seem to make sense because they talk about using it in semi-tilled soil. Thanks for the input guys,

Let's move on to the second part of this series. So some of you have jumped ahead with your answers but what I want to hear is about your first-time planting with it... I assume you all sprayed first with Gly and then planted. But in area, on my summer plots, the weeds will still come back with a vengeance by early summer. You can't spray again without wiping out everything, so...

1. What did you plant first?
2. How did you get around the issue of weeds over-taking your crops?
 
Ok, good stuff, as I suspected it appears closure and seed coverage is a problem. When I was researching the various models available I could tell everyone had their own idea about what works best. Even the AG boys like JD or GP that use large angled plastic wheels to collapse the side of the trench have invented upgraded all metal star wheels to try and improve this issue. There are several research papers written on the subject. All that said, I knew that when I bought the tar-river model I would have to modify it, because their solution is a spring loaded flat piece of metal, which will never reach the ground in a no till situation where you have a large amount of thatch build-up, or unlevel ground. I am working on a wheel type replacement. One interesting note is that tar-river sells a seed drill, though not listed as "no-till" and they attach a small cultipacker to the back, which doesn't seem to make sense because they talk about using it in semi-tilled soil. Thanks for the input guys,

Let's move on to the second part of this series. So some of you have jumped ahead with your answers but what I want to hear is about your first-time planting with it... I assume you all sprayed first with Gly and then planted. But in area, on my summer plots, the weeds will still come back with a vengeance by early summer. You can't spray again without wiping out everything, so...

1. What did you plant first?
2. How did you get around the issue of weeds over-taking your crops?

When we first got it the target was RR forage beans with a light mix of corn. The Kasco seed metering system was great for mixes, even with large seed like this. The RR crops solved the weed issue "temporarily anyway". We sprayed gly according to the directions for RR crops. We had high deer numbers at the time, The combination of browse pressure and weed competition would not allow the beans to canopy until I got up between 5 and 7 acres. At that point, there was enough beans that the deer could not keep up with the eagle beans and post plant spraying of gly kept the weed competition down enough for the beans to canopy and shade out weeds.

This worked great for a few years...but... Note the "temporarily anyway". We had a pine thinning in an adjacent area. We then burned the thinned pines. With the light getting to the ground with the thinning and burning of the pine straw, the native seed bank took off. It had marestail in it. Since the burn was about 100 acres, we could not control the marestail in the pines and it went to seed.

Marestail is naturally resistant to glyphosate. So, with multiple spraying of gly for burn down and post planting, the marestail was significantly advantaged over other weeds. The problem got worse, even when we targeted the marestail with labeled herbicides during burn down.

This changed may focus to weed management and I started to do a deep dive into it. My entire philosophy changed concerning deer management. Prior to this, my target was a clean, high yield farm field fit for a magazine cover. I began to learn the difference between farming and deer management as far as food plots go. Many of the farming techniques can be applied to food plots, but the objectives are quite different.

For a farmer, yield is king. Anything he doesn't plant is a weed as it detracts from his yield. Because he is has to harvest and is limited by the equipment for efficiency, he has to plant monocultures. This means he has to dump a lot of commercial fertilizer into his fields to compensate for all of the nutrients removed by harvest. Monocultures all want the exact same nutrients (and micro nutrients) from the soil. High yield is what makes farming profitable.

Things are completely different for a deer manager. First, for QDM, our food plots are not needed to replace native foods. Only a small fraction of a deer's diet comes from our food plots. They are intended to supplement native foods. So, our crops should be targeted toward stress periods when the quality of most native foods drop as the senesce. Depending on location that is either winter, summer, or a mix of both. Our crops should be providing quality food when nature does not. That does not mean that deer won't eat our crops when there is quality natural food. Deer are browsers, not grazers. They will move along and take a few bites of all kind of plants. They do focus on specific plants for short periods. So, if there is plenty of quality native food available, and a deer eats from our food plot instead, we have done nothing to advantage that deer. We have just substituted one quality food for another so the deer has no net gain. When we provide that nutrition during periods when nature is stingy, we help fill those gaps.

So, a successful food plot for QDM is not a pretty magazine monoculture, it is a plot that delivers nutrition when nature is stingy. What about yield? QDM requires scale and a typical deer home range is in the ball park of 1,000 acres. So deer will be eating foods from that entire area over the course of a year. If there is still quality food left in my food plot (given I have sufficient acreage planted for my deer density) at the end of the stress period, then the food plot had sufficient yield and did it's job.

Since yield is not a big factor for a deer manager, what is a weed? Many plants that are "weeds" for farmers are great high quality deer food. Granted there are noxious weeds that don't benefit deer, and when they begin to dominate like the marestail example above, they need to be dealt with, But, in general, a healthy mix of weeds in a food plot can be a beneficial thing for a deer manager.

So back to how I dealt with the marestail problem. First, I realized I was only making the problem worse with repeated use of glyphosate. I needed a different way to deal with the problem. The answer was a smarter choice of crops for my summer stress period along with a change in herbicides. I began to use a generic version of Liberty herbicide which is labeled for marestail for burn down. Next, I waited until much later in the spring and planted a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp. Sunn hemp is a legume that can fix a lot of N into the soil. It is a highly nutritious plant for deer. Deer tend to use but not abuse buckwheat like they do soybeans. Buckwheat is sometimes called green manure because it scavenges nutrients and then decomposes quickly releasing them for the next crop. Both buckwheat and sunn hemp are fast germinating annuals. Neither requires a no-till drill or tillage. They can be surface broadcast and cultipacked and get great germination. The ideas was to smother the marestail.

It took a few years, and I still have a little marestail, but it is in balance with my other weeds and it does not dominate. I now rotate the use of gly and generic Liberty for burndowns. Some weeds will develop resistance to Liberty over time with repeated use just like the gly-resistance problem we now have in many ag areas.

So, the answer for me was "Weed Tolerance" and smarter crops selection.
 
Yes, I agree with you that yield is not the most important thing, as I mentioned, I have been planting food plots for QDM for decades just doing it the hard way... I am familiar with marestail as I have it in my area as well, the problem I have with weeds in my area is that several types grow so fast and so tall that it shades out smaller types of "crops" and my planting dies before it ever gets going... For example, last spring I went out and sprayed my 3 acre plot with gly and got a perfect kill. I went back with my chisel plow and then my disc and had a beautiful bed ready for seed. Unfortunately my back went out and I didn;t get to plant. By the time I was able to get back on the tractor I had the best crop of fox-tail anybody has seen (Magazine cover quality). It was nearly 5' tall and thick as the hair on a dog's back.. My point is that even if I had planted, nothing could have competed with that... Your answer of using RR crops is what I was expecting to get but I didn't know they make mixed seed varieties of RR crops. Can you give me the name of the company I can research?

Also, I don't want to jump ahead to fast, but there is one other topic I want to discuss as a solution. But for now keep the answers coming guys...
 
Yes, I agree with you that yield is not the most important thing, as I mentioned, I have been planting food plots for QDM for decades just doing it the hard way... I am familiar with marestail as I have it in my area as well, the problem I have with weeds in my area is that several types grow so fast and so tall that it shades out smaller types of "crops" and my planting dies before it ever gets going... For example, last spring I went out and sprayed my 3 acre plot with gly and got a perfect kill. I went back with my chisel plow and then my disc and had a beautiful bed ready for seed. Unfortunately my back went out and I didn;t get to plant. By the time I was able to get back on the tractor I had the best crop of fox-tail anybody has seen (Magazine cover quality). It was nearly 5' tall and thick as the hair on a dog's back.. My point is that even if I had planted, nothing could have competed with that... Your answer of using RR crops is what I was expecting to get but I didn't know they make mixed seed varieties of RR crops. Can you give me the name of the company I can research?

Also, I don't want to jump ahead to fast, but there is one other topic I want to discuss as a solution. But for now keep the answers coming guys...
I mixed my own. I was not planting corn for food, it was to provide vertical cover to encourage more use during shooting hours. I mixed my own Eagle beans with corn at a 7:1 ratio by weight. This provided enough corn to get some vertical cover in the beans but there you could still easily get a shot opportunity into the plot. The corn also provides some structure for some of the climbing type beans (I mixed several varieties of Eagle beans). That 7:1 ratio was about right for my purpose.

As for the fast growing summer weeds, the mix and timing I chose after marestail became a problem was the answer. I realize buckwheat and sunn hemp may not be a fit for all areas. Both buckwheat and sunn hemp like warm soil. While buckwheat has a wide soil temp range where it will germinate, the optimal soil temp is 80 degrees. On a side note, I found that when I tried to double crop it one year that my first crop was always somewhat lethargic planted in cooler soil than my second.

When I was planting soybeans, I had a fairly small planting window. If I planted too early damp cool soil slowed down soybean germination and development. If I waited too long, does had dropped fawns and would hit the beans in hard in the early growth stage and they would not canopy.

My fall crop was WR/CC/PTT/GHR. In my area the CC reseeds and comes back in the spring providing food until I'm ready to plant. The WR has an allopathic effect on some weeds and both it and the CC take up space and resources that summer weeds would use. This doesn't stop them but reduces them.

This lets me wait until soil temps are quite warm. I typically plant the beans and sunn hemp in late June (zone 7a). By then, any summer weeds are growing strong. The liberty/gly rotation by year for burndown kills those weeds. Both buckwheat and sunn hemp are very fast to germinate and grow, especially in warm soil and compete very well with summer weeds. Yes, i do have plenty of weeds in these plots by summer, but it is a healthy mix that is not dominated by any single noxious weed. I often see deer eating weeds in my plots.

From my perspective they are not weeds, they are deer food and cover. In fact, I'm actually taking this one step further in recent years. Weeds are becoming my crop in some of my plots. This allows for greater scale with reduced cost and time. They don't completely replace food plots, but the do reduce the amount of acreage I need to plot. Here is a thread with a great video and a good example of the direction I've been moving: Managing weeds for deer. This is not related to a no-till drill, but it is the next step in my evolution.
 
Ok, it's time to kick this post again.....

So the last topic I wanted to discuss was how many of you guys use the "Buffalo system" that Dr Grant Woods promotes ? I have watched all his videos about it but I have several thoughts from my own experiences that don't quite mesh with his concept. I fully comprehend the process, I am just curious what your personal experience has been?
Yoderjac jumped ahead with his last post and put a link to another "Doctor" expert that promotes a system that is 180 degrees opposite to Dr. Woods. Which just goes to what I always say that even so-called experts can't agree on what is the best option. But that's another argument we can have later, right now I want to hear if the buffalo system worked for you?
 
Ok, it's time to kick this post again.....

So the last topic I wanted to discuss was how many of you guys use the "Buffalo system" that Dr Grant Woods promotes ? I have watched all his videos about it but I have several thoughts from my own experiences that don't quite mesh with his concept. I fully comprehend the process, I am just curious what your personal experience has been?
Yoderjac jumped ahead with his last post and put a link to another "Doctor" expert that promotes a system that is 180 degrees opposite to Dr. Woods. Which just goes to what I always say that even so-called experts can't agree on what is the best option. But that's another argument we can have later, right now I want to hear if the buffalo system worked for you?
You didn't mention your soil type. That might help us make recommendations for you. Generally, that tar river drill is pretty light for a true no till drill. It might struggle in heavier soils. Do you have much organic matter in the soil? Etc?

When it comes to drilling, getting your ground as flat as possible to start is idea.

Grant woods "buffalo system" naming is kind of a rip off of regenerative agriculture practices. He's doing the same stuff as the regen ag community, just putting his own name on it. There's a lot of regen ag content out there. It's worth reading up on. Gabe Brown's dirt to soil is a good read.

Greencover.com has a seed mix calculator that's a pretty cool tool if you want to mix your own diverse blends. It's usually much cheaper to buy seed locally vs shipping it.
 
You didn't mention your soil type. That might help us make recommendations for you. Generally, that tar river drill is pretty light for a true no till drill. It might struggle in heavier soils. Do you have much organic matter in the soil? Etc?

When it comes to drilling, getting your ground as flat as possible to start is idea.

Grant woods "buffalo system" naming is kind of a rip off of regenerative agriculture practices. He's doing the same stuff as the regen ag community, just putting his own name on it. There's a lot of regen ag content out there. It's worth reading up on. Gabe Brown's dirt to soil is a good read.

Greencover.com has a seed mix calculator that's a pretty cool tool if you want to mix your own diverse blends. It's usually much cheaper to buy seed locally vs shipping it.
I tend to agree. There are folks that coin names for approaches and sell them. Whether it is for an opportunity to hawk product or to collect eyeballs on the net, it makes much more sense for us to discuss the underlying approach itself. That takes some of the my method vs your method out of it.

I have not used commercial fertilizer for many years, and don't have pretty monocultures. Deer use my plots as much or more than ever. While there are concepts that apply to most, the specifics can vary greatly with location and individual circumstances.
 
Ok, RGrizzzz you are right I didn't mention my soil type, I am in south central kentucky so I have pretty much the same hard clay soil, without much organic matter as most people in Tennessee or North Carolina. And I already know that I will have to add more weight to the Tar River drill. That is why I am thinking about trying the Buffalo System that Dr Woods advocates because it is supposed to build the organic matter into the soil. So my question for you is do you use a system similar to him and if so has it worked out as advertised? I will look in to Gabe Brown, thanks.
 
Ok, RGrizzzz you are right I didn't mention my soil type, I am in south central kentucky so I have pretty much the same hard clay soil, without much organic matter as most people in Tennessee or North Carolina. And I already know that I will have to add more weight to the Tar River drill. That is why I am thinking about trying the Buffalo System that Dr Woods advocates because it is supposed to build the organic matter into the soil. So my question for you is do you use a system similar to him and if so has it worked out as advertised? I will look in to Gabe Brown, thanks.
I have heavy clay as well and low OM was a real problem when doing traditional tillage. Rain would tend to crust the clay. Going to no-till with a smart selection of crops that complement each other and can be surface broadcast has build my OM over time. I no longer have crusting issues with the clay. I've reduced the intensity and increased the acreage and become more weed tolerant. I haven't used commercial fertilizer in over 7 years.

Regardless of what name is attached, avoiding tillage and monocultures has been highly beneficial with my soils.
 
Ok, RGrizzzz you are right I didn't mention my soil type, I am in south central kentucky so I have pretty much the same hard clay soil, without much organic matter as most people in Tennessee or North Carolina. And I already know that I will have to add more weight to the Tar River drill. That is why I am thinking about trying the Buffalo System that Dr Woods advocates because it is supposed to build the organic matter into the soil. So my question for you is do you use a system similar to him and if so has it worked out as advertised? I will look in to Gabe Brown, thanks.
We switched 3-4 years ago. I think it's starting to make a difference when the weather cooperates. In the last two years, we've had 30+ day droughts and one LATE forst which killed off most of what's growing, so we don't have a ton of biomass to crimp/leave laying. Crossing our fingers that 2024 is a better growing year. We have added a little fertilizer in some plots to help things get started, but generally trying to avoid the cost/effort.
 
So Yoderjac, I am curious... You mention avoiding tillage and using no till to plant a seed blend, similar to what Dr Woods promotes.... However, you also posted a link to Dr Craig Harper and stated that you tend prefer his methods. But Dr Harper's methods are 180 degrees the other way from Dr Woods... That is why I am asking about people's success using the no till method. Dr Harper advocates not using a no-till method but instead he recommends using a disc, further he recommends using fire to remove thatch and allow the seed bank regrow. And of course he does not recommend planting any kind of seeds, so no need for any kind of planting device. These two "experts" couldn't be further apart on the subject......
I am considering trying each method on different locations on my property to see which works better..
 
So Yoderjac, I am curious... You mention avoiding tillage and using no till to plant a seed blend, similar to what Dr Woods promotes.... However, you also posted a link to Dr Craig Harper and stated that you tend prefer his methods. But Dr Harper's methods are 180 degrees the other way from Dr Woods... That is why I am asking about people's success using the no till method. Dr Harper advocates not using a no-till method but instead he recommends using a disc, further he recommends using fire to remove thatch and allow the seed bank regrow. And of course he does not recommend planting any kind of seeds, so no need for any kind of planting device. These two "experts" couldn't be further apart on the subject......
I am considering trying each method on different locations on my property to see which works better..
Forget the names, I can't keep track of which guy is promoting what from time to time. I'm not specifically following any recipe. My approach has evolved over time.

So, here is where I am:

1) Most of a deer's diet comes from native foods. My food plots are focused on providing quality food at specific times when native foods are senescing or otherwise unavailable. I'm trying to keep cost down. I focus on no-till/min-till for these. I'm building OM over time and have not used fertilizer in many years. I avoid monocultures and select plants that meet my deer objectives, but also promote OM development and have low fertility requirements. These food plots are supplemental. If there is any quality food left in the plot at the end of the stress period, my objective has been met. Yield is not an issue.

2) I'm moving more and more toward habitat management that focuses on native habitat. One aspect of that is permaculture. I took some of our old kill plots that have a perennial clover base and planted low to no maintenance fruit trees like persimmon. I have used a mix of trees, even disease resistant apple trees like some crabapples. Once planted and protected, these trees get no real maintenance. Either they will produce on their own or not. I then let the field go wild. When that field starts to get woody growth that is getting on the verge of being too large for my equipment, I knock it back. I typically use a bushhog for this. I can't use fire because of the fruit trees.

3) Recently, I've been looking at using the technique in the video I posted for old field management. These will not be food plots but managed native habitat. The idea is to kill all the fescue and other grasses (especially cool season) and then disk lightly to intentionally release the native seed bank. Occasional soil disturbance with either fire or a disk can be very beneficial for wildlife. This is different than the deep and frequent tillage used in traditional farming. Native weeds are well suited to the local soil almost by definition. This technique uses both spot spraying herbicides and fire to slightly bend nature in favor of weeds that are beneficial to wildlife.

So, different techniques for different objectives. The techniques above are in addition to the large scale timber management techniques. We manage pines for a combination of timber value and wildlife. We will think when appropriate and we clear cut small 5-10 acre sections in strategic locations and keep them in early succession with prescribed fire.

One last thought on tillage. MUCH depends on your soils. Highly fertile deep loam soils can recover from traditional deep and frequent tillage. More marginal soils that are largely clay or sand will benefit much more form no-till/min-till.

Hope this shed more light on what I'm doing. I really don't pay much attention to which media personality is advocating which pieces of it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that these guys don't know what they are doing. There are some folks out there just hawking product, but there are some who are very learned and have taught me a lot. I think locality and individual objectives are very big factors. I think most folks will benefit from learning the concepts that underlie the techniques we see pitched and figure out what applies to their situation.

This is what I'm doing and it has been successful, but it may not the the right approach for others. It has evolved over many years. When I started, I was using a 2-bottom plow followed by a 3-pt tiller with high fertilization. My monocultures looked like magazine cover plots at first, but over time began to struggle. One day, a soil scientist sent me a link with the formula to building a good solid dirt road that sheds water quickly. It was exactly what I was doing with my food plots. That is when I began investigating no-till/min-till techniques. I think I've made most every mistake out there, or at least many of them!
 
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