Neck shots

[quicksilverdave]

I recently shot a cull buck in the neck. I normally do neck shots. I bought a .45 cal muzzleloader and it’s very accurate. When I shot the buck, it dropped where it stood. But I found the bullet in the neck when I dressed it. It passed through the esophagus and clipped the spine but didn’t blow out the other side. I’m shooting 100 grains of purodez. Is that normal?

 

[yoderjac]

Well, to start with, when I hear "cull buck" my antenna go up. Most often it is an excuse by a hunter to shoot a young buck. Now in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with choosing to shoot a young but, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that we are having any positive impact on genetics. We are simply shooting a buck that we want to shoot.

Having said that, there very few situations where "culling" . I'd encourage you to listen to this podcast: MSU Deer Lab - Culling

Now on to your question:

I assume you mean 100 grains of Pyrodex. You don't mention your bullet weight or type. First, 100 grains of Pyrodex and typical muzzleloader bullet weights yield pretty low muzzle velocities compared to most centerfire deer rifles or a smokeless muzzleloader. In general, when shot in the chest, most firearms kill by hydrostatic shock. So most hunting bullets are intentionally designed not to exit the deer. The reason is that you want all of the kinetic energy in the bullet to be transferred to the deer. Given you hit bone and the deer dropped, with the assumptions I'm making about your bullet, I would say what you experienced is expected.

 

[quicksilverdave]

That’s good info about the shock factor. The bullet broke the middle and top half of the windpipe and clipped the spine. In the past, I was shooting a .50 cal with 150 grains of Pyrodex. The bullet would usually exit. Probably due to more powder grain.
But to verify the “cull buck” comment. We manage the heard and try and shoot the bucks that are around 3.5 to 4 years with messed up racks so they don’t reproduce. After looking at the jaw, this buck was about 4 years old and still a six point. He was 187lbs and 166 dressed out which is a good size for NC. Thanks for the response!

 

[yoderjac]

That’s good info about the shock factor. The bullet broke the middle and top half of the windpipe and clipped the spine. In the past, I was shooting a .50 cal with 150 grains of Pyrodex. The bullet would usually exit. Probably due to more powder grain.
But to verify the “cull buck” comment. We manage the heard and try and shoot the bucks that are around 3.5 to 4 years with messed up racks so they don’t reproduce. After looking at the jaw, this buck was about 4 years old and still a six point. He was 187lbs and 166 dressed out which is a good size for NC. Thanks for the response!

As for culling, what you are doing is the myth that many folks believe. They shoot "inferior" bucks so they don't breed. Mississippi State University Deer lab is one of the finest deer research organizations in the country. The pod cast that I linked specifically debunks this myth and provided good hard science to back it up. You should listen to it. It will make you think.

There are many things I assumed about deer over my life that science has since disproven. I've had to change my thinking on many things over the years.

 

[quicksilverdave]

As for culling, what you are doing is the myth that many folks believe. The shoot "inferior" bucks so they don't breed. Mississippi State University Deer lab is one of the finest deer research organizations in the country. The pod cast that I linked specifically debunks this myth and provided good hard science to back it up. You should listen to it. It will make you think.

There are many things I assumed about deer over my life that science has since disproven. I've had to change my thinking on many things over the years.

That’s very interesting. I will look into this. Thanks

 

[yoderjac]

Glad to help. In general, there are few situations where culling is useful in a wild deer herd. I guess if you had a severe over population where you needed to shoot any deer to bring the population back in balance with the habit and you had the choice of shooting a buck with future potential or one without, you may be able to call that a form of culling. Of course if population reduction is the objective, then shooting does is much more effective.

Breeding and genetics don't work the way most folks think. I won't go into the details of the genetics and math, but short of eliminating every buck for many, many square miles except a few (which is practically impossible in a wild deer herd, shooting bucks with consider "inferior" due to rack configuration has no impact.

The podcast provides all the details and science, so I won't go through the details, but there are several things guys forget. One is that many lopsided antler configurations are a response to injury, not related to genetics. Two, does carry 50% of the genetics. Three, just because a deer does not express large antlers doesn't mean he doesn't carry the genetics for it. There is something called epigenetics that looks at how the environment impacts which genes are expressed "turned on" in progeny and which are not.

 

[Gravel Road]

You didn't mention the bullet brand or weight, but a lot of 45 cal bullets are fairy stubby pistol type bullets that have low sectional density. This type of bullet won't always penetrate well, especially if it expands and deflects off bone like yours. Normally, I would expect a heavy bullet to easily blow through a neck or spine.
As far as the cull buck, you might not be able to change area genetics, but if you have to decide between a crappy 4 year 6 pt or or a nice young 10 pt I'd go for the 6 pt. Nothing wrong with shooting it.

 

[quicksilverdave]

I’m shooting 175 grain hollow point sabot with 100 grains (two triple 7 Pyrodex pellets). This is the first year using a .45 muzzleloader so I was curious as to why the bullet didn’t punch all the way through.
I’ve never paid attention to bullet weight. I’ve been hunting for decades and I’ve always found that a well placed shot overrides bullet weight, powder, bullet type, etc.
I started doing neck shots about 15 years ago because the deer are pretty easy to find after a neck shot. Once the smoke clears, there he is; right where you shot him. Lol

 

[Gravel Road]

Not a fan of neck or head shots myself. I always imagine the deer is going to move that small target right as I'm squeezing the trigger-lol. I prefer a simple lung shot. Plus, I really hate to lose neck meat and would much rather waste a little rib meat. A large buck has a lot of good neck meat!

 

[quicksilverdave]

Those are good points. I used to do the double lung shot for many years. Nothing wrong with that. That’s what most people say is the best way and it may be. I just believe the neck shot is more humane as the deer dies almost instantly, you don’t have to track it, and it makes you concentrate on your shot more. Anyway, like I said, I used to do the lung (try for the heart) shots. I just prefer the neck shot. Gonna hunt tomorrow eve. Good luck to you this season!

 

[yoderjac]

You didn't mention the bullet brand or weight, but a lot of 45 cal bullets are fairy stubby pistol type bullets that have low sectional density. This type of bullet won't always penetrate well, especially if it expands and deflects off bone like yours. Normally, I would expect a heavy bullet to easily blow through a neck or spine.
As far as the cull buck, you might not be able to change area genetics, but if you have to decide between a crappy 4 year 6 pt or or a nice young 10 pt I'd go for the 6 pt. Nothing wrong with shooting it.

I want to stress there is nothing wrong with shooting any legal deer you want. The important thing here as far as culling goes is not to delude yourself that it improves the genetics. I wouldn't criticize anyone for choosing to shoot any legal deer.

 

[quicksilverdave]

No worries. I get it. Some intelligent people came to the conclusion that taking out the deer with cruddy looking racks doesn’t mean your gonna have a bunch of 16 pointers running around. I just don’t like shooting a two and a half year old 10 point when I know he is gonna be a monster when he’s 4 or 5 years old. I’d rather wait. I’m a meat hunter. I love to experiment with recipes every year.
I’ve found that soy sauce, Worcestershire, minced garlic, rosemary and salt and pepper make an awesome steak marinade for venison. Try it out and tell me what you think.

 

[yoderjac]

Not a fan of neck or head shots myself. I always imagine the deer is going to move that small target right as I'm squeezing the trigger-lol. I prefer a simple lung shot. Plus, I really hate to lose neck meat and would much rather waste a little rib meat. A large buck has a lot of good neck meat!

I think there are tradeoffs on shot selection. You are correct that a neck shot is a fairly small target at about 4" or less, but at a reasonable distance with an accurate rifle in the hands of an experiences shooter, it is doable. It damages little meat and it is typically bang/flop.

Chest cavity shots provide a much larger target and taint even less meat. The down side to these is that a deer can often run and cover quite a distance before dying. With no exit wound, blood often pools in the chest leaving little if any blood trail so recovery can be problematic.

A scapula shot is one of my favorites. It is another bang/flop shot but it has a larger target than a neck shot. The downside is that it destroys a bit more shoulder meat.

Shot selection also depends on the angle. For example if a deer is facing me, aiming at bottom of the neck can be a good shot. If you hit the neck it is a bang/flop. If you are a bit low, you go through the chest cavity.

 

[yoderjac]

No worries. I get it. Some intelligent people came to the conclusion that taking out the deer with cruddy looking racks doesn’t mean your gonna have a bunch of 16 pointers running around. I just don’t like shooting a two and a half year old 10 point when I know he is gonna be a monster when he’s 4 or 5 years old. I’d rather wait. I’m a meat hunter. I love to experiment with recipes every year.
I’ve found that soy sauce, Worcestershire, minced garlic, rosemary and salt and pepper make an awesome steak marinade for venison. Try it out and tell me what you think.

We a have a balanced harvest policy on our property. Our experienced hunters target the top 10% age-class-wise. We let our novice hunters take any deer they like. We shoot does for our meat hunting. This is on a 400 acre property with adjoining land owners cooperating to do QDM.

I have a small 16 acre property with a barn and where we plant to build a house to retire. I have no problem shooting young bucks for meat on that property.

 

[quicksilverdave]

That’s awesome. I definitely prefer does for my food source. The game management guru where I hunt has been asking us to take the undesirable bucks to “cull” the herd. I see know from what you’ve told me and what I looked up after, it is not a cure for better deer. I’m just going with the flow because it’s a good property to hunt with lots of nice deer. I just love to hunt and hunt responsibly. Sounds like you have a great set up there.

 

[yoderjac]

That’s awesome. I definitely prefer does for my food source. The game management guru where I hunt has been asking us to take the undesirable bucks to “cull” the herd. I see know from what you’ve told me and what I looked up after, it is not a cure for better deer. I’m just going with the flow because it’s a good property to hunt with lots of nice deer. I just love to hunt and hunt responsibly. Sounds like you have a great set up there.

Perfectly understandable. There are "Guru's" and then there are biologists that follow the science.

 

[quicksilverdave]

Exactly

 

[T.R.]

When I hunted in Pennsylvania, I carried a 45 caliber flintlock and had much fun with it. I loaded a round ball over 70 grains of black powder. Only two does were felled by me across a decade of hunting the special late season. Both bullets were discovered under the hide after breaking ribs and punching through the lungs. One must exercise good distance judgement when hunting with a flintlock because the power and velocity just does not work for shots much farther than 75 yards or so. - TR

 

[AjaDog]

I've read your post and had to think back to remember the only time I really focused on using a neck shot the one that comes to mind, he was a 6 pointer in my back field I thought it was odd him to be the 1st on the scene but on my back porch my Remington 700, 300win mag, lol in my boxer shorts cup of coffee, listening to John boy and Billy, the deer 225yds out he was quartering me and stopped he turned his head looking back behind I guess to see where everyone else was at, I took the shot, about 8 inches in front of the shoulder, 200 grn core lokt cartridge, what a mess, wasn't any neck roast left, since then I only use my 300 on coyotes 600yds and further, not only that the recoil is tremendous, I'm not a big fan of any 300 win mag, so that's the only neck shot I can recall in all my hunting years

 

[AjaDog]

Somebody give the 411 on these new copper type rounds they are pushing these days, I'm skeptical about them, expansion, trajectory, velocities, etc what I have used for years does just fine,