Imazethapyr 22.87% - AKA Thunder, Slay, Pursuit, Pemex

[RGrizzzz]

Has anyone used this stuff in clover? The neighbors of our camp use this stuff in a small clover plot by their house, and it looks amazing. We have a plot 200 yards away that has been treated with Imox, Clethodim and 24DB over the years. Our sprayings kick the weeds back, but they generally come back within the growing season, unless fall sprayed. The neighbor's plot was disked again in the fall, seeded with clover and sprayed with Thunder. This spring, I couldn't find a single weed in it. Can the residual effect last into the next growing season? The plot wasn't super thick with clover in the fall, like it is now. I'm thinking about grabbing a bottle for some of our small woods clover/"kill" plots and just trying to run them with clover only.

https://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96_98&products_id=1075

 

[RGrizzzz]

I just did some label reading. The plant back intervals are pretty interesting. Some crops are YEARS. None for legumes. Wheat 3 months. Barley and rye, 4 months. So in PA you could spring spray in May and plant rye around Labor Day. This could be pretty useful for the small throw and mow type plots. Clean clover with fall seeded rye.

$90 for a gallon. 4-6oz/acre. You could cover 21 acres at the 6oz rate. That's a pretty inexpensive way to manage monocropped clover.

 

[MarkDarvin]

I’m likely gonna bite the bullet and spray some imox this month. I’m torn between doing it or waiting a year. If it doesn’t rain, it does me no good to wipe out half the vegetation even if it’s useless grass.


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[TreeDaddy]

Craig harper recommends pursuit with clethodim for clover plots

Worked well for me

bill

 

[George]

Has anyone used this stuff in clover? The neighbors of our camp use this stuff in a small clover plot by their house, and it looks amazing. We have a plot 200 yards away that has been treated with Imox, Clethodim and 24DB over the years. Our sprayings kick the weeds back, but they generally come back within the growing season, unless fall sprayed. The neighbor's plot was disked again in the fall, seeded with clover and sprayed with Thunder. This spring, I couldn't find a single weed in it. Can the residual effect last into the next growing season? The plot wasn't super thick with clover in the fall, like it is now. I'm thinking about grabbing a bottle for some of our small woods clover/"kill" plots and just trying to run them with clover only.

https://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96_98&products_id=1075

Menman said, "Imazethapyr is less persistent (up to 1 yr) and is also used for pre- and post-emergent weed control, often in soybeans and other legumes. Imazethapyr is safe for legumes. Imazethapyr also has a high leaching hazard. Trade names include Thunder, Pursuit, Hammer, Overtop, Passport, Pivot, Resolve, Contour, Praxis, Pemex, Zepher Max, Cheetah, and Willowood."

 

[RGrizzzz]

Menman said, "Imazethapyr is less persistent (up to 1 yr) and is also used for pre- and post-emergent weed control, often in soybeans and other legumes. Imazethapyr is safe for legumes. Imazethapyr also has a high leaching hazard. Trade names include Thunder, Pursuit, Hammer, Overtop, Passport, Pivot, Resolve, Contour, Praxis, Pemex, Zepher Max, Cheetah, and Willowood."

Less persistent?

 

[MarkDarvin]

Less persistent?

That’s a good reminder. If it doesn’t rain, that chemical may linger a little while longer.


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[George]

Less persistent?

Less persistent than imazapyr which lasts 2 years in the environment.

"Imazapyr kills more weeds than Imazethapyr and is more persistent (up to 2 yrs), used for pre- and post-emergent control of a broad range of weeds, including woody species and aquatic weeds. Imazapyr can persist in soil for extended periods, potentially harming nearby desirable plants. Imazapyr is generally considered to be relatively safe for fish, so it is often used for aquatic treatment. Imazapyr is not safe for legumes. Imazapyr is considered a high leaching hazard after terrestrial applications, moving along with water. Trade names include Arsenal, Chopper, Stalker, TVC Total Vegetation Control, Assault, and Habitat."

G

 

[RGrizzzz]

Less persistent than imazapyr which lasts 2 years in the environment.

"Imazapyr kills more weeds than Imazethapyr and is more persistent (up to 2 yrs), used for pre- and post-emergent control of a broad range of weeds, including woody species and aquatic weeds. Imazapyr can persist in soil for extended periods, potentially harming nearby desirable plants. Imazapyr is generally considered to be relatively safe for fish, so it is often used for aquatic treatment. Imazapyr is not safe for legumes. Imazapyr is considered a high leaching hazard after terrestrial applications, moving along with water. Trade names include Arsenal, Chopper, Stalker, TVC Total Vegetation Control, Assault, and Habitat."

G

Right, but you wouldn't use it for legumes.

 

[Mennoniteman]

Has anyone used this stuff in clover? The neighbors of our camp use this stuff in a small clover plot by their house, and it looks amazing. We have a plot 200 yards away that has been treated with Imox, Clethodim and 24DB over the years. Our sprayings kick the weeds back, but they generally come back within the growing season, unless fall sprayed. The neighbor's plot was disked again in the fall, seeded with clover and sprayed with Thunder. This spring, I couldn't find a single weed in it. Can the residual effect last into the next growing season? The plot wasn't super thick with clover in the fall, like it is now. I'm thinking about grabbing a bottle for some of our small woods clover/"kill" plots and just trying to run them with clover only.

https://www.keystonepestsolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96_98&products_id=1075

I've been using Imazethapyr 2sl on clover for years with good results, there's been times when I've had clover sprayed with Imazethapyr that would have won all the awards at the country fair, and other times when I was looking for a miracle for a failed plot and my herbicide application did not come through. The important parts are to use ammonium sulfate and crop oil, spray weeds that are less than 3" tall, especially grass clumps. If the weeds are too big, mow first, wait a week, then spray. (16 oz - acre of crop oil, 48 oz-acre AMS and 6 oz-acre of Imazethapyr) Dry spray grade AMS is way cheaper than liquid, just have a mixing method that doesn't clog your sprayer.
When tank-mixing, add the ammonium sulfate after the crop oil, but before the Imazethapyr.

I also use Clethodim and Butyrac200, alternating herbicides can really increase their effectiveness. I did a spring application of Imazethapyr and now I will use Clethodim for late summer grasses like foxtail if needed.

I consider all of these to be tools in the toolbox for clover, along with mowing, lime, and fertilizer, none of them are the only answer.

I have also had really good and really bad luck using 12 oz. of Roundup on clover as per label. I do not use roundup on clover anymore due to the bad luck outweighing the good.

 

[yoderjac]

I used to deal with all that and found it simply wasn't worth it. What was happening is that, over time, I was removing many of the weeds that were highly beneficial to and preferred by deer, and advantaging the noxious weeds that were more tolerant to the herbicides. I've now become very weed tolerant, especially when it comes to perennial clover.

First, I choose a clover that is persistent like Durana which is well suited for my climate. Next, I get a good herbicide burn down and only plant perennial clover in the fall with a heavy Winter Rye nurse crop. Then, the first spring, each time the Winter Rye hits 12"-18", I mow it back to 6"-8". This releases the clover to the sun. It does not kill the winter rye so it continues to take up space and other resources that would be used by summer weeds. The winter rye eventually dies on its own, but by then, the clover has established in its place.

After that, weed tolerance is my friend. Only mow clover once a year in the fall, just before our archery season. After just a couple years, my clover plots look so weedy and ugly in the summer, that unless you get down on your hands an knees and brush the weeds aside, you won't not even know it was a clover field. However, when I mow right before the season, our fall rain and cool nights favor the clover over the summer weeds which are naturally senescing at this point any way. The clover rebounds and takes over the field again.

Yes, over time, the clover fixes N into the soil and more and more grasses invade the field. After 7-10 years, with Durana, weeds dominate, I will usually rotate into an N seeking crop for a season and then start over and replant in clover.

I find this is far less work than trying to make a clover field look like a magazine cover with herbicides. Deer use my fields even more now. Weeds add "structure" to the field. Less effort, lower cost, improved results. What is not to like? People, by nature want things to look neat. Deer like things that look ugly!

 

[Mennoniteman]

I used to deal with all that and found it simply wasn't worth it. What was happening is that, over time, I was removing many of the weeds that were highly beneficial to and preferred by deer, and advantaging the noxious weeds that were more tolerant to the herbicides. I've now become very weed tolerant, especially when it comes to perennial clover.

First, I choose a clover that is persistent like Durana which is well suited for my climate. Next, I get a good herbicide burn down and only plant perennial clover in the fall with a heavy Winter Rye nurse crop. Then, the first spring, each time the Winter Rye hits 12"-18", I mow it back to 6"-8". This releases the clover to the sun. It does not kill the winter rye so it continues to take up space and other resources that would be used by summer weeds. The winter rye eventually dies on its own, but by then, the clover has established in its place.

After that, weed tolerance is my friend. Only mow clover once a year in the fall, just before our archery season. After just a couple years, my clover plots look so weedy and ugly in the summer, that unless you get down on your hands an knees and brush the weeds aside, you won't not even know it was a clover field. However, when I mow right before the season, our fall rain and cool nights favor the clover over the summer weeds which are naturally senescing at this point any way. The clover rebounds and takes over the field again.

Yes, over time, the clover fixes N into the soil and more and more grasses invade the field. After 7-10 years, with Durana, weeds dominate, I will usually rotate into an N seeking crop for a season and then start over and replant in clover.

I find this is far less work than trying to make a clover field look like a magazine cover with herbicides. Deer use my fields even more now. Weeds add "structure" to the field. Less effort, lower cost, improved results. What is not to like? People, by nature want things to look neat. Deer like things that look ugly!

That's all fine until a good deer manager moves in next door and draws your deer away. Guys talk about letting fields go and the deer still come to eat, but in these types of unmanaged grass/clover plots that I observed, and there are plenty to look at all over the place, the resident deer have few other choices, but when given other choices they quickly vote by their presence which they prefer.
When a clover field is just left go, grass moves in very quickly, and whitetailed deer don't care for grass, and also don't like having to pick their clover out of grass if they don't have to.
I know multiple cases where a newcomer grew a nice monoculture clover plot and drew a lot of the neighborhood deer in, and in almost every instance the neighbors didn't even comprehend what had happened, all they did was grumble that the hunting wasn't as good anymore, while the newcomer was lining his trophy wall.
I read the writings of minimalist experts who proclaim that less is more, that doing almost nothing to a wooded area is best for deer, and doing almost nothing to a field is best for deer, but the evidence shows the exact opposite. For deer the only time that less is more is staying out of the habitat unless working there improving the habitat.
Doing very little work is not deer management, and for deer hunting, the return is going be equal to the effort invested. Those guys who are spraying Thunder on their clover plots are doing so because they are getting a return on their investment, and they have the deer harvests to prove it

 

[MarkDarvin]

That's all fine until a good deer manager moves in next door and draws your deer away. Guys talk about letting fields go and the deer still come to eat, but in these types of unmanaged grass/clover plots that I observed, and there are plenty to look at all over the place, the resident deer have few other choices, but when given other choices they quickly vote by their presence which they prefer.
When a clover field is just left go, grass moves in very quickly, and whitetailed deer don't care for grass, and also don't like having to pick their clover out of grass if they don't have to.
I know multiple cases where a newcomer grew a nice monoculture clover plot and drew a lot of the neighborhood deer in, and in almost every instance the neighbors didn't even comprehend what had happened, all they did was grumble that the hunting wasn't as good anymore, while the newcomer was lining his trophy wall.
I read the writings of minimalist experts who proclaim that less is more, that doing almost nothing to a wooded area is best for deer, and doing almost nothing to a field is best for deer, but the evidence shows the exact opposite. For deer the only time that less is more is staying out of the habitat unless working there improving the habitat.
Doing very little work is not deer management, and for deer hunting, the return is going be equal to the effort invested. Those guys who are spraying Thunder on their clover plots are doing so because they are getting a return on their investment, and they have the deer harvests to prove it

That's a hard truth I'm coming to terms with. I can make it at best 5 years before I need some chemical intervention. I can see the deer interest drop off too. I invited in some grass prematurely with 20 small squares of ditch hay as a mulch. I had spread some awfully pasty clay and wanted to keep it from crusting.

I spread gypsum and hay over it, and it grew very well, but so did all the grass seeds that came with it. If I could go back knowing what I know now, I'd have spent the money on bales of hemp straw to cover it.

 

[yoderjac]

That's all fine until a good deer manager moves in next door and draws your deer away. Guys talk about letting fields go and the deer still come to eat, but in these types of unmanaged grass/clover plots that I observed, and there are plenty to look at all over the place, the resident deer have few other choices, but when given other choices they quickly vote by their presence which they prefer.
When a clover field is just left go, grass moves in very quickly, and whitetailed deer don't care for grass, and also don't like having to pick their clover out of grass if they don't have to.
I know multiple cases where a newcomer grew a nice monoculture clover plot and drew a lot of the neighborhood deer in, and in almost every instance the neighbors didn't even comprehend what had happened, all they did was grumble that the hunting wasn't as good anymore, while the newcomer was lining his trophy wall.
I read the writings of minimalist experts who proclaim that less is more, that doing almost nothing to a wooded area is best for deer, and doing almost nothing to a field is best for deer, but the evidence shows the exact opposite. For deer the only time that less is more is staying out of the habitat unless working there improving the habitat.
Doing very little work is not deer management, and for deer hunting, the return is going be equal to the effort invested. Those guys who are spraying Thunder on their clover plots are doing so because they are getting a return on their investment, and they have the deer harvests to prove it

I have not seen that here. Keep in mind we manage intensely for deer. I was skeptical myself when I started the transition, so I had both intensely managed perennial clover plots and perennial clover plots managed as I described above at the same time on our place. I had wireless blackflash cameras with solar panels that run 24/7/365. During the spring, deer seemed to use both types equally. During the summer, there was a slight bias toward the summer plots. I presume this was because each of the native weeds had different peak periods when they were favored by deer, so in addition to the clover there was more variety. The tall summer weeds also seemed to shade the clover which was beneficial during dry weather. IN the fall, right after I mowed, deer use was about equal between the plots.

Keep in mind that we manage for deer and turkey and have other plot besides perennial clover. We used to plant a mix of soybeans and corn for summer. In recent years, we have switched to a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp. We typically also plant fields of WR/CC/PTT/and sometimes add GHR. for fall. We still use no fertilizer. The smart mix and rotation of crops and the increased nutrient cycling from no-till/min-till have compensated. We also have permaculture dropping nuts and fruit.

Deer don't abandon our place for neighbors plots. Some neighbors even use illegal feeders and don't compete favorably. Having said that, we don't have sufficient acreage to keep deer on our property. We are just shy of 400 acres and there is another 400 acres of adjoining property that acts as our sanctuary were hunting is not permitted. With only 800 acres of management, many deer will have home ranges that overlap our property and others.

Each place is unique, and what works for me may not work for you, but managing perennial clover the way I do has not changed deer usage negatively as part of a larger management program.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I have not seen that here. Keep in mind we manage intensely for deer. I was skeptical myself when I started the transition, so I had both intensely managed perennial clover plots and perennial clover plots managed as I described above at the same time on our place. I had wireless blackflash cameras with solar panels that run 24/7/365. During the spring, deer seemed to use both types equally. During the summer, there was a slight bias toward the summer plots. I presume this was because each of the native weeds had different peak periods when they were favored by deer, so in addition to the clover there was more variety. The tall summer weeds also seemed to shade the clover which was beneficial during dry weather. IN the fall, right after I mowed, deer use was about equal between the plots.

Keep in mind that we manage for deer and turkey and have other plot besides perennial clover. We used to plant a mix of soybeans and corn for summer. In recent years, we have switched to a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp. We typically also plant fields of WR/CC/PTT/and sometimes add GHR. for fall. We still use no fertilizer. The smart mix and rotation of crops and the increased nutrient cycling from no-till/min-till have compensated. We also have permaculture dropping nuts and fruit.

Deer don't abandon our place for neighbors plots. Some neighbors even use illegal feeders and don't compete favorably. Having said that, we don't have sufficient acreage to keep deer on our property. We are just shy of 400 acres and there is another 400 acres of adjoining property that acts as our sanctuary were hunting is not permitted. With only 800 acres of management, many deer will have home ranges that overlap our property and others.

Each place is unique, and what works for me may not work for you, but managing perennial clover the way I do has not changed deer usage negatively as part of a larger management program.

Yes, I agree that every property is different and I'm not insinuating that you don't know how to manage deer, it sounds like you have a great program going on there.
Since this is a clover herbicide thread I was pointing out some hard facts about clover to the newbie food plot entrepreneur, letting a clover plot go with no grass killer herbicide treatments will result two things 100% of the time; grasses (and sedges ) taking over and less deer usage, with grasses usually starting the second year, and really growing by the third year after establishment. The best way to grow nice clover without herbicide is to alternate with corn, using a small grain and tillage for the transition. Clover grows like wildfire after corn.
There's multiple other variables to growing clover such as OM, PH, soil test results, prior seed bank, carbon/nitrogen balance etc., but grass seeds are everywhere and a cover plot provides prime growing conditions for grass. What I didn't mention earlier is that lowering nitrogen goes hand in hand with clover management, and is also just as important as spraying grasses. This is usually done by inter-seeding a small grain into clover plots by throw n mow or drilling.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, I agree that every property is different and I'm not insinuating that you don't know how to manage deer, it sounds like you have a great program going on there.
Since this is a clover herbicide thread I was pointing out some hard facts about clover to the newbie food plot entrepreneur, letting a clover plot go with no grass killer herbicide treatments will result two things 100% of the time; grasses (and sedges ) taking over and less deer usage, with grasses usually starting the second year, and really growing by the third year after establishment. The best way to grow nice clover without herbicide is to alternate with corn, using a small grain and tillage for the transition. Clover grows like wildfire after corn.
There's multiple other variables to growing clover such as OM, PH, soil test results, prior seed bank, carbon/nitrogen balance etc., but grass seeds are everywhere and a cover plot provides prime growing conditions for grass. What I didn't mention earlier is that lowering nitrogen goes hand in hand with clover management, and is also just as important as spraying grasses. This is usually done by inter-seeding a small grain into clover plots by throw n mow or drilling.

I agree. I just wanted to let newbie's know there are alternatives to the selective herbicide route for clover management.