Cull Bucks

[Dennis Duffy]

Duffy a couple of thoughts to consider. Age is always your friend for having better bucks. The odds of growing B&C bucks on 150 acres are low...happens but it is a bit like lightening in a bottle. Whether you shoot either of the bucks you posted will have make no difference except those bucks won't be there anymore. Do what you like.That said I see nothing in ole droopy that suggest maturity. In fact looks young to me. Will he grow to be a giant ? Probably not. Will he get bigger with age? Probably.

He might not be as old as i thought . Wouldn't be the first time i was off on my age guess..LOL! But trust me he is older than what you would think. If he does get shot this year i will have his teeth aged and let you know.

 

[Dennis Duffy]

Shoot that one buck and keep him from breeding yet you already have his genetics in the herd going back a dozen or more generations in the inherent both the doe and buck gene pool. No affect on open range whatsoever. You are not a product of your parents, or grandparents, etc , but a complex product of many generations of gene pool supplements contributed by your ancestors.

That makes a lot of sense and i see what your saying. I do realize with shooting him it can't stop all the previous breeding he has done or his gene pool, but i just figured why let it continue if his genes are not that good. I may not benefit from it but someone on down the road might. Like i said, I only own a small farm and it limits me from being able to see any benefits as far a management goes for the most part. I am actually at the point that if i like what I see when i am hunting then I shoot em! Now with that said, i have eaten tag soup many years and will continue! I just love hunting and enjoying what God has given us! But i do juggle wether or not to shoot a buck that is not really ever going to be much. The best scenario is to try and get a young one to shoot em and that ay we are all happy.

 

[Baker]

This buck would probably be considered a "Cullbuck", since it's and old buck and his rack is a mess.

The buck had tags in his ears!


I harvested the buck in 2014 and reported the tags to the Missouri Department of Conservation. I was told that the deer escaped confinement from a deer farm during the ice storm of 2007, making the buck at least 7.5. The deer farm raised bucks with magnificent racks, which this buck would have grown a massive rack in confinement where there was little stress and a high protein diet. I'm thankful that this buck contributed to the local gene pool. In this buck's case age, an injured hoof and drought conditions created his rack, but his genetics were the best money could buy!

This buck certainly supports the thesis that it is difficult to know the genetic potential of a buck until and unless he lives on a very high nutritional plane. So often folks want to remove 'inferior deer' when practically the buck has no chance to express his potential due to nutritional inadequacy.

 

[Brushpile]

Exactly! This buck was jumping fences, dodging coyotes, and survived at least 6 deer seasons, if he escaped as a fawn! Places like Iowa and Illinois have big racks because of agriculture, while this buck survived on a barren drought ravaged landscape, where ranchers sold off their cattle before they died from starvation!

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Exactly! This buck was jumping fences, dodging coyotes, and survived at least 6 deer seasons, if he escaped as a fawn! Places like Iowa and Illinois have big racks because of agriculture, while this buck survived on a barren drought ravaged landscape, where ranchers sold off their cattle before they died from starvation!

As I've already stated, I LOVE these types of conversations. The catch is that even trying to manipulate the standing stock just isn't an overly worthwhile endeavor for I'd guess more than 10% of us. There are just so many more things that will deliver far more results for the majority of land/deer managers out there...And nutrition is a big one. You want to see the biggest jump in antler quality? Figure out what the nutritional stress points are each year and make sure you offer ample, top end nutrition during those phases, while also making sure you have plenty during the seasonal nutritional high points (often one is fine there as is, but a little boost often doesn't hurt either). Do that and rack sizes are likely to take a noticeable jump.

The other painfully obvious one is just getting age on bucks.

Most with a 20-200 acre property will never see a benefit from trying to shape the standing stock. Heck, many are thrilled to have a, any 3.5 yr old buck on their ground, period. If you're lucky enough to live in an area with decent-great buck numbers and age classes, that's still typically not enough ground to see a noticeable impact. The smallest I've managed that I can honestly say I believe I saw an impact was a piece that was just shy of 500 acres.

That's a long way of saying that I love this topic and find it incredibly fascinating, but trying to manipulate the standing stock is probably the least important thing one can do on their grounds for at least 90% of the managers out there. Set whatever age goals you're comfortable with, hunt in a low impact manner, offer the best food, water, breeding and feelings of safety and comfort. Do that and everything else generally falls into place for most landowners. You can/will see tangible benefits from those steps, but most likely won't by shooting a weak racked 3.5 as opposed to letting him go another year, UNLESS your buck numbers are too high on your ground and bucks are getting their daylight core areas pushed to the neighbors because of it. Most just don't have that issue.........and most won't feel sorry for you if you do, as you already likely have the best hunting in the area.

 

[Baker]

As I've already stated, I LOVE these types of conversations. The catch is that even trying to manipulate the standing stock just isn't an overly worthwhile endeavor for I'd guess more than 10% of us. There are just so many more things that will deliver far more results for the majority of land/deer managers out there...And nutrition is a big one. You want to see the biggest jump in antler quality? Figure out what the nutritional stress points are each year and make sure you offer ample, top end nutrition during those phases, while also making sure you have plenty during the seasonal nutritional high points (often one is fine there as is, but a little boost often doesn't hurt either). Do that and rack sizes are likely to take a noticeable jump.

The other painfully obvious one is just getting age on bucks.

Most with a 20-200 acre property will never see a benefit from trying to shape the standing stock. Heck, many are thrilled to have a, any 3.5 yr old buck on their ground, period. If you're lucky enough to live in an area with decent-great buck numbers and age classes, that's still typically not enough ground to see a noticeable impact. The smallest I've managed that I can honestly say I believe I saw an impact was a piece that was just shy of 500 acres.

That's a long way of saying that I love this topic and find it incredibly fascinating, but trying to manipulate the standing stock is probably the least important thing one can do on their grounds for at least 90% of the managers out there. Set whatever age goals you're comfortable with, hunt in a low impact manner, offer the best food, water, breeding and feelings of safety and comfort. Do that and everything else generally falls into place for most landowners. You can/will see tangible benefits from those steps, but most likely won't by shooting a weak racked 3.5 as opposed to letting him go another year, UNLESS your buck numbers are too high on your ground and bucks are getting their daylight core areas pushed to the neighbors because of it. Most just don't have that issue.........and most won't feel sorry for you if you do, as you already likely have the best hunting in the area.

Amen.

 

[Brushpile]

The buck that escaped from the deer farm would have looked similar to these deer farm bucks.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?...+buck+pics&qpvt=deer+farm+buck+pics&FORM=IGRE
I'm not saying that a land owner can recreate a deer farm environment, just that genetics don't necessarily equate to a big rack.. The buck that I pictured has age + good genetics. He didn't have security, veterinary care, and a high protein diet, so his superior genetics were negated by his environment. Had this buck escaped from an Iowa deer farm, and fed on ag crops, he would probably show his genetic potential.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

It is all about age structure as far as I am concerned here in Illinois. We have the nutrition and couldn't do anything about it with our game laws anyway. I have some farms that the age structure is remarkably different than some of the other farms. This is due to the neighbors also hunting 5 yr old or better bucks. When capable of adding square miles to your management efforts it makes a huge difference in a bucks potential. All but one 100 acre farm in a 3 square mile area has the same practices as myself. Then you add the 2000 acres 4 miles north of this property that kills only mature bucks and it makes for a superb free range hunting opportunity around these farms of mine.

Now go 10 miles north of these farms and it is a different game due to a couple poachers wiping out half of the buck herd around the farm 2 years ago. 23 bucks killed on or around my farm by these guys and then you can add another dozen or so killed legally in the surrounding area as well. Doesn't take long to offset the buck population even though the farm is over 800 acres.

 

[Baker]

It is all about age structure as far as I am concerned here in Illinois. We have the nutrition and couldn't do anything about it with our game laws anyway. I have some farms that the age structure is remarkably different than some of the other farms. This is due to the neighbors also hunting 5 yr old or better bucks. When capable of adding square miles to your management efforts it makes a huge difference in a bucks potential. All but one 100 acre farm in a 3 square mile area has the same practices as myself. Then you add the 2000 acres 4 miles north of this property that kills only mature bucks and it makes for a superb free range hunting opportunity around these farms of mine.

Now go 10 miles north of these farms and it is a different game due to a couple poachers wiping out half of the buck herd around the farm 2 years ago. 23 bucks killed on or around my farm by these guys and then you can add another dozen or so killed legally in the surrounding area as well. Doesn't take long to offset the buck population even though the farm is over 800 acres.

Property managed for mature top end bucks is extremely sensitive too harvest pressure. Overharvest for one year and it can take years to recover fully. Rough stuff when poachers leave a scar like that.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Property managed for mature top end bucks is extremely sensitive too harvest pressure. Overharvest for one year and it can take years to recover fully. Rough stuff when poachers leave a scar like that.

Extremely true, no matter what caused the "over harvest." I've had the EHD & Blue Tongue combo lay a smack down on properties/areas a large handful of times now. The great thing about habitat improvement is that creating the best habitat around and having deer feel safe there sucks local deer in like a magnet when the area's population is trashed. So, you end up with at least a decent deer population, long before the area recovers.

The catch is that the yearling buck recruitment sucks. You can't really shoot the does to try to keep the 1.5 yr old bucks from dispersing, as you are trying to build deer numbers (and doe numbers are obviously needed to build deer numbers). At the same time, the 1-10 mile range where one typically picks up dispersed 1.5s from, that setup shop long term on your ground, no longer has a high number of 1.5s that are dispersing.

So, you get an initial influx of deer, including bucks (which puts you ahead of the curve right out of the gate), but the pipeline of new bucks has been crimped (not as many does 1-10 miles away giving birth to buck fawns that could potentially setup shop on your ground from yearling buck dispersal). The improvements help limit the pain considerably, but it still ends up setting a property back 5-7 years from where it was when it was rocking.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

Property managed for mature top end bucks is extremely sensitive too harvest pressure. Overharvest for one year and it can take years to recover fully. Rough stuff when poachers leave a scar like that.

I am lucky enough to have several farms scattered over a 30 mile radius which will give this farm the time it needs to recover. I am actually seeing quite a few deer on camera's the only problem is they are all young on this farm. I have one picture that has 9 bucks in the food plot and have been catching several doe in the area as well. The problem is the bucks are all 2.5 or younger. I have only seen one mature buck on the farm so far this year. He is a good one but you would think when I saw him I would see some other bucks of similar age running with him but he has been by himself every time I have had eyes on him. You can say it has left a deep scar on this farm for sure. The best thing with this farm is we also have a state park adjoining it so I am sure there will be some mature bucks show up as the rut ramps up.

 

[Btaylor]

Great discussion guys. Here is another point to sort of piggyback on much of what Steve and Baker have posted. Neither of my last two bucks broke 115" on the farm I hunt now but both were 4.5. As a bowhunter, I don't care what anyone tells you those are trophy deer. Look at the statistics from any state you choose and consistently taking 4 or older bucks puts you in the upper tier of whitetail hunters. We can't all grow lots of inches for a number of reasons but we can all hunt with age goals in mind if we so choose and should always be proud of any mature deer we harvest. Heck one of my best deer was a doe year before last that we believe to have been over 8. Heck a buck I intend to target this year is a 7 pt that we know is at least 5.5 from cam history. He hasn't gained 10" in the last three years and score wise won't make our top 10. But he is a buck that gets hard to see once season starts and I see him as a great challenge. Again he won't break 115" and I could not care less. We all have different property and herd challenges that we work on each year but try not lose sight of seeing the trophies on your property for what they are. A mature deer, buck or doe, is a trophy to be proud of for any hunter.

 

[Btaylor]

Would like to hear thoughts on a doe reset for lack of better terminology. That is the one area where I think we can impact herd genetics more than on the buck side. It is something we did for the three seasons prior to last fall. We had an out of whack buck doe ratio and we set in pretty good targeting the oldest does. Last year we backed down the harvest target to where we feel we need to be for maintaining balance. What we have seen so far is much more even distribution of smaller doe family groups across the farm where there used to be less even distribution and large family groups. We also are seeing way more consistent branched antler 1.5 y/o bucks and way less spikes. During that time we have also made significant additions to plot acreage with spring and fall plantings which I am sure has also helped. Anyway just curious about talks thoughts from a doe perspective.

 

[boot]

The doe-buck ratio management is something I have never really gotten into as a land manager/hunter. I understand how it affects bucks during the rut, but I would rather have too many does than too few, but thats just a personal preference. If one year we do have too many does we have some friends come out and harvest one or two does to fill their freezer. Our area has had some CWD reportings, both through the DOW and I've seen a few infected deer as well, and while its difficult to accurately gauge how bad CWD is, I want a large healthy doe herd in my area to try and offset any population decrease CWD might have.

 

[Baker]

Great discussion guys. Here is another point to sort of piggyback on much of what Steve and Baker have posted. Neither of my last two bucks broke 115" on the farm I hunt now but both were 4.5. As a bowhunter, I don't care what anyone tells you those are trophy deer. Look at the statistics from any state you choose and consistently taking 4 or older bucks puts you in the upper tier of whitetail hunters. We can't all grow lots of inches for a number of reasons but we can all hunt with age goals in mind if we so choose and should always be proud of any mature deer we harvest. Heck one of my best deer was a doe year before last that we believe to have been over 8. Heck a buck I intend to target this year is a 7 pt that we know is at least 5.5 from cam history. He hasn't gained 10" in the last three years and score wise won't make our top 10. But he is a buck that gets hard to see once season starts and I see him as a great challenge. Again he won't break 115" and I could not care less. We all have different property and herd challenges that we work on each year but try not lose sight of seeing the trophies on your property for what they are. A mature deer, buck or doe, is a trophy to be proud of for any hunter.

Well said. I'll take it a step further. Everything we do should be for the joy of it. Each circumstance is different, unique, but we can all share the delight taken in doing what we can with what we are offered. I decided a long time ago to love the lifestyle and not get too tangled if things didn't work according to plan.

Some years back I was bowhunting my farm. By that time I had taken several B&C bucks.That evening I had a mature doe come by me and I got so excited, so nervous I couldn't pull my bow back. By the time I got it drawn she was 50 yds away snorting at me. I'm 62 yrs old and never hope to lose the sheer joy of the outdoor lifestyle including and especially getting to work year round with whitetail deer.

 

[Jason Broom]

Would like to hear thoughts on a doe reset for lack of better terminology. That is the one area where I think we can impact herd genetics more than on the buck side. It is something we did for the three seasons prior to last fall. We had an out of whack buck doe ratio and we set in pretty good targeting the oldest does. Last year we backed down the harvest target to where we feel we need to be for maintaining balance. What we have seen so far is much more even distribution of smaller doe family groups across the farm where there used to be less even distribution and large family groups. We also are seeing way more consistent branched antler 1.5 y/o bucks and way less spikes. During that time we have also made significant additions to plot acreage with spring and fall plantings which I am sure has also helped. Anyway just curious about talks thoughts from a doe perspective.

Two or three years of targeted doe harvest is two or three years of bucks getting older, as well as (probably) lowering the overall herd numbers, which will increase the nutritional plane. Branch-antlered yearling bucks are a function of doe health during gestation and lactation, as well as the nutrition available to that buck during the calendar year after which he is weaned. Antler development during a given year is predicated, in no small measure, by the health and body mass of that buck coming out of the previous winter (or stress period).

Thinning out does, such that it reduces an excess population and balances sex ratios, contributes to both age structure and nutrition. Combine that effort with age-selective buck harvest and other efforts to improve available nutrition, and it's a fast-track to seeing more rut activity and larger-bodied/racked bucks.

 

[Baker]

Two or three years of targeted doe harvest is two or three years of bucks getting older, as well as (probably) lowering the overall herd numbers, which will increase the nutritional plane. Branch-antlered yearling bucks are a function of doe health during gestation and lactation, as well as the nutrition available to that buck during the calendar year after which he is weaned. Antler development during a given year is predicated, in no small measure, by the health and body mass of that buck coming out of the previous winter (or stress period).

Thinning out does, such that it reduces an excess population and balances sex ratios, contributes to both age structure and nutrition. Combine that effort with age-selective buck harvest and other efforts to improve available nutrition, and it's a fast-track to seeing more rut activity and larger-bodied/racked bucks.

Spot on!

 

[Jason Broom]

This buck would probably be considered a "Cullbuck", since it's and old buck and his rack is a mess.

The buck had tags in his ears!


I harvested the buck in 2014 and reported the tags to the Missouri Department of Conservation. I was told that the deer escaped confinement from a deer farm during the ice storm of 2007, making the buck at least 7.5. The deer farm raised bucks with magnificent racks, which this buck would have grown a massive rack in confinement where there was little stress and a high protein diet. I'm thankful that this buck contributed to the local gene pool. In this buck's case age, an injured hoof and drought conditions created his rack, but his genetics were the best money could buy!

It is a bit difficult to see in this picture, thanks to my daughter's hair, but this yearly buck is a 3x4 and was quite heavy when I had to drag him across a creek for these pictures!

What would he have looked like in 3 or 4 more years? I would venture to say his genetic "potential" was similar to the buck that escaped the deer farm. To put that another way, if this buck had been born and raised in an enclosure, with stress limited and a very high nutritional plane, it might have achieved very impressive antler dimensions. Was I disappointed to see this buck harvested at a young age?

Look at the smile on her face.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

Well said. I'll take it a step further. Everything we do should be for the joy of it. Each circumstance is different, unique, but we can all share the delight taken in doing what we can with what we are offered. I decided a long time ago to love the lifestyle and not get too tangled if things didn't work according to plan.

Some years back I was bowhunting my farm. By that time I had taken several B&C bucks.That evening I had a mature doe come by me and I got so excited, so nervous I couldn't pull my bow back. By the time I got it drawn she was 50 yds away snorting at me. I'm 62 yrs old and never hope to lose the sheer joy of the outdoor lifestyle including and especially getting to work year round with whitetail deer.

I keep trying to tell myself that everything I do is for the joy of it. I enjoy the work and the hunting but the financial side of dealing with 20,000 acres can eat at you in the first year I will tell you that. Now if I had some money going into it that would be a different story I would be having a blast.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

As a bowhunter, I don't care what anyone tells you those are trophy deer. Look at the statistics from any state you choose and consistently taking 4 or older bucks puts you in the upper tier of whitetail hunters. We can't all grow lots of inches for a number of reasons but we can all hunt with age goals in mind if we so choose and should always be proud of any mature deer we harvest.

if there was such a thing, I'd nominate this for Post of the Year. This is going to make me sound like a jerk at first, but hopefully you will all see my motives for doing so are pure. I'd honestly have to count to come up with an accurate total of how many 160+ gross bucks I've killed over the years. I have been lucky enough to tag more bone than I'd have believed in my wildest dreams I'd ever put on my walls.

I think it's important to point that out for increasing the credibility factor of what I'm about to say. IMHO, there is no means of judging the quality of a hunter that is MORE flawed than basing it on the inches of bucks they kill, none. One of the worst hunters I know has killed more 160+ bucks than I have. I mean, by any other measure, the guy I'm thinking of is a very, very ineffective hunter, but he spends all his time hunting areas with absolute giants. Sure, he blows way more opportunities than he connects on, and has left a long list of wounded deer in his wake. Still, when you put in enough time hunting absolutely primo, doesn't get any better than this type grounds, you're going to kill great deer eventually.

There was a kid that helped me a few years consulting for an outfitter. He wasn't old enough to buy beer the first year I'd met him, yet he'd already tagged 5 160+s. Every time we'd set stands, I'd ask him to pick a tree in this general area and explain to me why "that" was the spot. I'd be surprised if everyone here wasn't better at it than he was, but he lived and hunted in the right area.

Rack size means next to nothing in determining if the buck was a challenge or not/a sign of if someone is or isn't a good hunter. Most all of the highest grossing bucks I've killed have been comparatively easy to hunt/kill vrs the 3.5+s I've drug off of public grounds, with a low 150" being my largest and 120ish being about the average. They are all dwarfed by the bigger bucks I've killed, but most all offered a heck of a lot more of a challenge than their bigger racked cousins that lived on pristinely managed grounds. It's ALWAYS easier for the world's worst hunter to kill a 160+ when there are multiples on the ground they hunt than the world's best hunter trying to kill a 160+ off of ground that the biggest racked buck is pushing 110. Rack size alone means absolutely nothing in terms of the challenge/accomplishment.....nothing