Cull Bucks

[Steve Bartylla]

I agree with others. Not going to change your genetics in free roaming deer. Free range hunters took the "cull buck" term from high fence situations to justify killing bucks that don't meet there ideal criteria. TV hunters use that term every time they shoot a smaller buck. Shoot what makes you happy.
Todd

I couldn't disagree with a word of that post if I wanted to (and I don't). I don't watch hunting shows hardly ever and am forcing myself to do it simply to see what I can learn from them on filming and presentation, on the odd occasions that I do. Still, it seems every one I watch the hunter is explaining why he just shot that young cull buck.

Here's the catch, as well as why I can't even force myself to watch more shows for improving my video presentation and videography skills. I know what pressure these TV hunters are under to produce kills and that's really why they are shooting those 2.5 & 3.5 yr olds. I know this is swearing here, but I have 0 issue with ppl shooting nubbins, 1.5s, 2.5s or whatever else they legally and ethically can...So long as they are happy with it, as you say. It just rubs me the wrong way when they then spew BS to justify it. Also, I spent enough time consulting for outfitters in the earlier years to know that around half the time they don't want the rack of that "cull" buck, or want the meat. I can't tell you how many times I heard TV guys respond with variations of, "Do whatever you want with it. I don't want it." when the outfitter or guide asks what they want them to do with their "cull" buck.

hint: If you ever really want to PO an outfitter, both of these ill likely do it. If used together, they're even more effective at raising blood pressure levels.

It was a good TV buck.
Do whatever you want with it/I don't want it.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I love these discussions.

I'm right there with you on that, my friend. This topic belongs in a small group of those topics that I am most passionate about and LOVE trying to dig deeper, pick others' brains on and always trying to find that one more puzzle piece that helps me see the picture clearer. to put it in perspective, I have an article that I HAVE to finish today and keep taking breaks to check this thread. My name is Steve Bartylla and I'm an addict (when it comes to this and a few other topics)

I'm 100% on board with all the points in your last post, including that the approach I use isn't for everyone. I'll take it a step further and genuinely agree that it isn't even for most that are trying to manage their grounds for deer. It's really exclusively for those that have the goal of trying to raise as many truly top end bucks as practically possible (edit: and have the ground to do it), and you BETTER "know your herd," "offer 365 top end nutrition" and realize "those you don't shoot are more important than those you do" before you ever think about doing this. It's not for most and never will be. Heck, it's not for most here, and we aren't "normal."

I probably will take you up on the tour offer some day, most likely this winter or next year. I have 0 doubt it will be a truly fascinating learning experience, and I will die still having a lot left to learn (hopefully, quite a few years from now yet).

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

I know in my area nutrition is the key to our wild free ranging trophy caliber deer and we enhance that to the best of our ability. Game laws in my state do not allow feeding deer with that they do not allow mineral to be put out for the herd either (whether or not mineral helps the deer in any way or not). This means that we add food plots and leave crops to help them survive the winters. The #1 reason that I see Trophy deer on some of my farms and not on others is neighbors. I have one area I mentioned earlier that is full of immature bucks 3.5 or younger and then I have other farms that I am gathering photo inventories of numerous bucks over the age of 4. Some of which I have put on hit list this year and some I am giving a red light for this year off of potential I see in them. If I am wrong about there potential then oh well we have another 5.5 High P&Y deer on the property instead of a B&C buck but if I am right we could have some super bucks in the next couple of years.

This is why my goal is to take 5.5 or older bucks. I feel most bucks have realized their potential at the age of 5. That is not to say I haven't seen bucks blow into something special at 6 though either. Mind you I will lose some of those 3.5 age bucks to neighbors or even guests that take out a 140" stud. This is where it will be heart breaking but the nature of the beast that is Deer Management in the midwest.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

Steve, I can't wait for the first time someone says that to me about do what I want with the young deer they removed from my farm. I am sure you can figure out what I will do with it . Oh and that person will never set foot back on one of my properties after they have their trophy surgically removed.

 

[Smallplot]

Just my 2 cents. I have watched a lot of bucks that would be considered cull bucks in my years of sitting in a stand. I have passed on some, I have shot some. And I can say the only buck I was not happy about harvesting was not paying enough attention and shooting a different buck and when walking up realizing I shot the wrong buck. At that point the disappointment is in myself and not the deer as the shots were good quick clean harvests but just on the wrong deer.

Being in my line of work I am very familiar with the number of deer vs car collisions and the number of deer that survive is high. I always wonder if a cull buck was not injured in some way and further wonder if they will develop something with lots of character over the next few years. Now I have taken some with injuries that likely would have resulted in death and am just as happy with that choice as taking something in the 180s. I remember one came limping along which may have been a 2 year old. One front foot was severely swollen and the deer was not able to put any weight on it. He would have made a great 5 year old if given the opportunity but didn't look like he was going to survive another year.

To some of us cull bucks have a very different meaning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Steve, I can't wait for the first time someone says that to me about do what I want with the young deer they removed from my farm. I am sure you can figure out what I will do with it . Oh and that person will never set foot back on one of my properties after they have their trophy surgically removed.

Yeah, back in the days I consulted for outfitters, I heard clients say sooooo many unbelievable things to guides and outfitters that all I could do was shake my head at their stupidity. One sit, a doe crosses 200 yards away and the stand needs to be moved, as the spot it's in is obviously wrong. I also always liked, "Put me in one of your good stands, today," inferring that they were sticking him in worthless ones the days before....Well, you're probably going to be sucking bottom of the barrel now. It always amazed me that so many that had never stepped foot on the ground, outside of being walked to and from the stands by their guide, miraculously know more about the ground that their guides did.

I'll tell ya, good guides earn every cent they make for putting up with some of these jokers. Got a lot of respect for the good ones, as you couldn't pay me enough to put up with what they do.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

And is the reason that I went with a managed hunt club rather the outfitter scenario. Now mind you I will have a few hunters coming into camp that I will be guiding but for the most part will be Hunt Club members with no one to blame but themselves if they can't seal the deal.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I picked up on that, BR....I just went off on a tangent. I don't mean to brag, but I'm extremely skilled at taking conversations in every direction, outside they're meant to be headed. Most times I sidetrack myself so badly that I can't even remember what the discussion was supposed to be about to start with.....Afraid I'm the plague to a well flowing thread.

 

[Jason Broom]

When I see a buck that is clearly 2.5 years old and goes 180, (pounds...who cares about antlers?) he's in serious jeopardy of getting vacuum sealed and spending the winter in my freezer. "Cull" buck? Complete nonsense. Quality Whitetails ran an article recently that showed as many as 5 or 6 bucks with overlapping ranges, so unless you've got a lot of good deer on a property, I don't see how shooting one deer is opening up a spot for some other deer.

Maybe I just haven't hunted good enough properties, and that is a legitimate possibility.

 

[Dennis Duffy]

If i see a mature deer are my farm in Western KY. and he has some small head gear he will be on the kill list. I figure why let him do any more breeding than he already has. Just my thoughts right or wrong! But I usually try to let a youth take him if it all works out perfectly! but we all know that rarely happens!!

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

Broom, Every hunter has a different goal and if yours is to 2.5 or better big bodied deer for the freezer then I say have at it. As far as I am concerned each kill is in the eye of the beholder and if makes them happy then I am happy.

I will say that some of my properties I have would fall into that "a lot of good deer category". This is mostly due to neighbors hunting with similar principles as I do and letting young deer walk. I have watched age structure on one farm be outstanding and then go to another farm 3 miles up the road and I can't find a shooter (for me) anywhere on the farm. The farm I am referring to not having a shooter actually has an abundance of bucks running it (just young). So you are correct in there are some farms that may not help much to selectively shoot lower class mature bucks and make a difference.

 

[mthornton99]

I don't get to hunt nearly enough to worry about such things. I basically shoot the buck that immediately gives me the "shakes" regardless of size. I don't usually get those shakes if I feel I am shooting a buck to "cull" him. Depending on the circumstances of the hunt/season the size of the buck I shoot can vary, but I never shoot a deer simply to cull. It defeats the purpose of me hunting.

I have no problem with those who practice such, it is just not for me.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I don't get to hunt nearly enough to worry about such things. I basically shoot the buck that immediately gives me the "shakes" regardless of size.

For what it's worth, I think that's a great approach and would even suggest that is how the overwhelming majority should approach the "shoot" or "don't shoot" question. On your own or public ground, if you are genuinely going to be happy with that buck standing in front of you and you have a legal tag to put on it, kill the dang thing and DON'T YOU DARE let anyone give you a guilt trip or lecture you on why you "shouldn't" have shot it, period, end of story.

I hope I don't offend with this, but I find it flat out disgusting when someone else tries to serve a plate of guilt/shame to another that has just killed a buck they're genuinely happy with, regardless of age or rack size. I find it beyond disgusting when it comes from those in the industry or sitting on large chucks of primo managed grounds. Few have anything remotely close to the opportunities us industry types have or even those that worked, sacrificed and built those larger chunks of managed grounds. If you have one, you likely earned every handful of that dirt and should be applauded for that. However, that still doesn't give spoiled industry guys like me or those that made great sacrifices to build their dream the right to try to dictate to others what they should or shouldn't shoot. Most hunters struggle each year just to see a buck they can kill, and giving them a guilt trip about it sickens me.

That was aimed at NO ONE here. It's one of the things I've always been proud of for being associated with you guys (and AD). It's just a general soap box rant aimed at a bunch of experiences I've had in the real world.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

When I see a buck that is clearly 2.5 years old and goes 180, (pounds...who cares about antlers?) he's in serious jeopardy of getting vacuum sealed and spending the winter in my freezer. "Cull" buck? Complete nonsense. Quality Whitetails ran an article recently that showed as many as 5 or 6 bucks with overlapping ranges, so unless you've got a lot of good deer on a property, I don't see how shooting one deer is opening up a spot for some other deer.

Maybe I just haven't hunted good enough properties, and that is a legitimate possibility.

Glad you made it here, bud!

I'm going to debate the value of those studies for a second, if you don't mind. I had the same debate with LT over this a few years back.

To me, that study is interesting, but horrifically lacking, when it applies to this specific topic.

What were the ages of those bucks?
What were the personality types of each of those bucks (like people, some bucks are driven to rule their corner of the world, while others are quite passive/mellow)"
What was the DPSM in the study area?
What was the population dynamics and age structure of the area's herd?
What was the habitat like (did several pockets offer bucks everything they want/need or was it spread out and so on)?

Without at least answers to those specific questions, the results say absolutely nothing either way on whether mature, dominant bucks drive other bucks out that also want a hole to dominate. When LT and I were debating this, he pointed out that one buck bedded next to another during peak rut. So, that proves that bucks don't drive others out. In the most respectful way possible, that's pure BS. Without knowing that both bucks were striving to be dominant bucks or not, it says nothing more than 2 bucks bedded next to each other. He couldn't even tell me their ages (I'm sure the researcher could tell that much, or at least they better be able to).

There will be exceptions to everything. I also know full well that anecdotal evidence should always be viewed with a very healthy dose of skepticism. However, I have literally many, many, many years of anecdotal evidence, spread out over a whole bunch of ground in the Midwest and points north that all says that osmosis occurs when population dynamics and age structure are rocking. Those that are driven to be dominant, yet can't find area to dominate, due to the numbers, physical stature and density of other bucks striving to dominate, have a very high tendency to move from areas of higher concentrations to areas offering a lower concentration of bucks driven to dominate.

Because research doesn't account for all those questions above, I find that it is woefully inadequate on this and several other subjects. To steal Baker's line, you need to "know your herd" in order to have data that offers any value at all on this. I can point to a long list of bucks that tolerated each other over the rut, but one of them was always willing to assume a subordinate role to the other.

That said, though I find this topic fascinating and truly is a passion of mine, I doubt it matters to 10% of those here, as either their primary goals aren't to produce the very best top end bucks a person can (nope, you can't control genetics, but you sure can shape/impact the caliber of the standing stock) or they don't have the ground &/or deer numbers to make this approach work anyway.

 

[Rickey]

On my personal property I only shoot bucks 3.5 or better and since I just bought this little 22 acres last year have not shot a buck off it. I did shoot a doe last year. On my hunt club we have a problem with people understanding age. What we have done was set an 8 point or better rule which most have taken a step farther and are looking for 15" minimum spreads. Just by doing this for a few years, our quality has increased significantly. We had two 4.5 yo bucks killed last year and 2 the year prior. Prior to that it had been years since multiple 4.5 were shot. We are now also getting a lot more 4.5+ on camera. This is good progress in my eyes. Now if the guys would just learn to quit over hunting an area we would probably see more.

 

[Jason Broom]

When a buck has reached 2.5 years of age, which I think we can all agree is too young to determine best possible expression of genetics, he has already established the home range where he is very likely to spend the rest of his life. It is commonly understood that bucks form bachelor groups during the summer, absolutely have overlapping home ranges, almost never change their home range once it's established, and that some scrapes are proven to be visited by most, if not all, of the mature bucks in a given area.

How often are bucks driven out of their home range? Outside of a very small window, when bucks are actually tending does, my observations have been that bucks may give one another a wide berth, but to claim that they completely relocate? I've seen no science or anecdotal evidence to support that, but again, my experience is on properties with relatively few mature bucks.

I'd be curious to hear what Baker has observed on his property.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I'm obviously not Baker, but there is one part of my posts that I obviously need to clarify. I am NOT suggesting that bucks get driven out of their home ranges hardly ever, by anything outside of a domino effect of following estrus and near estrus does during breeding, which is what I believe is the cause for most bucks that end up miles and miles away form their established home ranges. They get on one trail or involved in a chase and they don't stop when they hit the edge of their home range, as they are chasing their prize. they either breed her or eventually lose her, only to pick up another doe or trail on their way back home, which takes them further out, only to be drawn even further away by another...Because there are a good number of does hitting estrus at about the same time, I imagine that occurring is far from a reach.

That said, there is a very significant difference between home ranges and core areas (I know you know that....Just trying to be sure I articulate what I mean clearly). Even on very, very large properties, a significant % of bucks are going to have home ranges that fall partially on and off that ground. The dominant bucks claim the core areas they can that they want the most, and can show an extremely high affinity to that core area. In fact, as mature buck numbers rise, those core areas typically shrink and many of those bucks rarely leave them. When that stud 3.5 has his core area on your ground and he is nudged out, by a combo of wanting an area to dominate himself and his inability to do that on your ground, I'm NOT claiming he abandon's his home range. He merely shifts his core area to the neighbors, which was part of his home range all along. Sure, his home range still includes your ground, and he may well shift his core area back over onto yours (if/when he can dominate that core area), but our ground still being part of his home range does us next to no good, while he's spending almost all his time in his newly established core area on the neighbors.

Hopefully that explains what I mean by being pushed out better...Not out of his home range (which often overlaps multiple properties-many properties), just inspiring him to shift his core area.

P.S. I'm also in no way, shape or form saying that bucks' travels don't overlap during the rut. What I'm talking about is all about the truly dominant bucks and those driven to dominate an area. It seems a very significant percent of the 3.5s are driven to find an area to dominate within their home range, yet there are those that seem content with occupying lower rungs of the dominance ladder. I'm not pretending it's quite this neat or cut and dried, but, when population dynamics and age structure is rocking, the ground essentially gets divided up by the truly dominant bucks. There are any number of other bucks within those areas, which is no problem at all, so long as they assume a subordinate role. The issues occur when 2 bucks unwilling to assume that subordinate role encounter each other. If they try to have overlapping core areas, they're either going to kill each other, one is going to be forced to shift their core area or one must assume a subordinate role.

The catch is, I can't look at a 3.5 and predict if he is willing to assume a subordinate role or not. I can put it together when the neighbor suddenly is getting pictures of this buck that's been on me all the way up to mid Oct and he is now consistently on the neighbor's, sporting broken tines and such. It is purely anecdotal. The snapped tines lining up with his relocation paints a pretty clear picture, but at least some of the time, I'm sure it's also just a coincidence. When you can point to 25+ cases of that, and then throw in close to double digit occurrences of killing the dominate buck he previously had an overlapping core area with, resulting in that 3.5 moving back to his previous core area within days and the neighbors not getting any more pics......As I said, it's anecdotal evidence and not to be completely trusted, but when the same picture is painted that many times, I become pretty convinced the picture it paints is reality.

P.S.S. Also, keep in mind, I'm only claiming to have uncovered this "tendency." Every year, I have at least 1 or 2 5.5+ yr old bucks that can show up any and everywhere. The majority stick pretty darn tight to their core areas, but that 1 or 2 consistently show up every and any here.

Last point of clarification, I'm talking WHEN population dynamics and age structure is rocking. When mature buck numbers are low, they roam much more carefree, as their risk of serious fights are low. As the mature buck numbers climb, you can literally see those core areas shrink and the affinity of most of the mature bucks for those core areas increase substantially.

I really think it's all keyed to them trying to reduce the number of fights they get into. When two truly mature bucks go at it, both lose, and that includes the winner. The amount of force they exert is truly impressive, yet dangerous as heck. Any doubt, try breaking just a tine off of a 3.5 year old shed. After doing that, imagine the life threatening force it takes to literally snap the main beam off of a 4.5+ year old buck. Buck fights kill way more bucks than I believe most realize. Maybe not that day, but a week, a month, a couple months later, when the stress of the rut and the toll of that fight is finally too much. I do believe that most mature bucks actually try to avoid fights, if they can....and they try by sticking to their core areas and hoping their neighbors do the same, once mature buck numbers have reached a certain point.

All of those "ifs", "whens", "who" and other specifics are why I don't believe the research to date has any real value on this subject. The only way to put something like this together is if you truly know your herd.

 

[Baker]

There is a phenomenon I see both on my farm and in Mexico. As stated during the summer there are bachelor groups all around the property.They tend to stay in fairly defined patterns and can be found in the same or close locations regularly. Once antlers harden the groups disperse. Sure a couple of the bucks may remain running buddies but for the most part the bachelor group is done. We might still find many of the same bucks in the same area just at different times. Then as the rut approaches some of the bucks pick up and may move miles away to an entirely different core area and stay there for much of the winter. These are just as likely to be very mature bulls as youngsters. Sometime later, perhaps after antler shed, back they come to a bachelor group where they were the previous summer.

I have also seen bucks completely change their core area. For the first few years of their life they live in one area. Then for reasons I don't know they shift to an entirely different area that could be a significant distance from the previous core and stay there year round. Doesn't seem to be a dominance thing or food availability cause I've seen older bucks do this as much as younger.

Perhaps related to all this is that I do see the 3 and 4 yr olds running around more , covering more ground , doing most of the fighting and can have larger foot prints during the rut. On my properties that is when bucks are typically fighting there way into the breeding pool. It may explain the perception that bucks are being 'pushed around'. They certainly move more.Maybe some semantics involved and also simply understanding what is being seen .

Overarching it all is individual buck personalities. There is no one set pattern I've observed.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Baker. I used to be buddies with a guy that ran a 1800 acre, natural genetics, natural everything except the fence, property. He always claimed that once the rut kicked in, mature buck X pretty much stuck to this area, mature buck Y to that area over there and mature buck Z would be somewhere in this other area, while that odd ball buck A could show up any and every where.

His mature buck density was typically higher than on my free range grounds, and those affinity to those specific areas during the rut (outside of buck A) were very, very strong. They were stronger than what I've witnessed, with lower mature buck densities.....All except when EHD & BT would come through every 8ish years and put a slaughter on those bucks. When that would happen and bucks X & Z survived, they'd be all over the place during the rut, as the competition was way lower.

Have you seen something along those lines play out on your grounds? His experiences line up dang near perfectly with mine. I also do wonder how much of what I'm seeing may have to do with the habitat improvements I make. Since I started to put that together, I started loosely dividing up my improvements, trying to make it so bucks could have everything they want in relatively small core areas, spread all over the ground. Now, the bucks have never figured out that they are supposed to stay within the lines of my created core areas, as most of those inconsiderate sons of guns end up overlapping into portions of 2 or 3 of them. Still, I do suspect that may be playing a role in what I see, as well.......Though the high fence buddy didn't purposefully try to do that, there are pockets that contain great food, water and cover spread all over his ground, as well.

 

[Baker]

I used to hunt a buddies ranch in Mexico that was 250,000 acres of infinite brush . The deer population was very low with maybe [swag ] a deer to 100 acres. Many bucks covered very large swathes of country. Just because you might bump a buck in one area didn't mean you would ever see him again or maybe miles away. My impression was that those bucks covered very large areas following terrain features and it was just darn near impossible to hunt a specific buck.

My farm on the other hand does reflect more like what you are speaking of. There is not a 1/4 mile line on 2500 acres that can be drawn in any direction that doesn't have everything a deer needs. I also have a very strong representation of very mature bucks . Generally the core areas for the bucks are much, much smaller with some that I have watched living most of their life in about 80 acres. During the rut as mentioned above some bucks pick up and move to another part of the farm while others stay put and never move. There are also the wanderers. But I also see mature dominant bucks core areas overlapping even during the rut. They just have the experience to know how to avoid each other or coexist. Beyond that I agree with the observations your friend has.

I also see a lot of coexistence between the mature bucks [ 5-7 or older ] and the 3 yr olds. The 3 yr olds may throw up a lot of Saint Elmo's fire but when it gets down to it a 270lb 6 yr old bull dominates with body language every time . This as true in Mexico as La. Unfortunately I find too many dead superstar 3 and 4 yr olds from fighting.