Cull Bucks

[Steve Bartylla]

Good. What you say fits my beliefs pretty darn well. In Mexico, you're talking low mature buck numbers (I can't speak intelligently to the habitat at all). When I've got low mature buck numbers (which one has by default in low deer number areas), those few mature bucks seem to show up any and everywhere.

About the only real fights I see/am aware of between the 3.5s and the 4.5+s is in that mid Oct period. On the flip side, the only real fights I see/am aware of between 4.5+s is during the rut itself. It seems that a % of those foolish kids (the 3.5s) need to get their butts handed to them once by Mr. Big before they know better. Where I may indeed be wrong is if it's the other 3.5 & 4.5s that inspire the stud 3.5 to shift his core area or if it's him getting his butt handed to him by Mr. Big. I tend to believe it's Mr. Big, as those examples of the youngster returning and staying home within a day or 3 of Mr. Big getting killed, but I'm far from convinced it isn't the other 3.5s & 4.5s doing the nudging.

Like you, I have a lot more 3.5s & 4.5s fighting each other than the 3.5s going toe to toe with 5.5+s. I've just noticed that during that initial mid Oct period and it seems to be done. That doesn't stop them from covering more ground during the rut, though...I believe the 3.5s and to an extent the 4.5s have to in order to score breeding in populations with a good number of mature bucks (5.5+s). Thy still tend to stick more in this area or that, but I also have the ventures into new areas for a day or two way more so than with mature bucks

Also, I have a lot of mature bucks with overlapping core areas. What I don't have is a lot of that where one of them isn't willing to back down from the other's posturing or, as you put it, one just seems to try to avoid the other.

I do want to have this conversation with you some time. In it, I'd like to explain in detail what I believe (you pretty much have it in this thread) and would genuinely appreciate it if you tried shooting holes in those beliefs. After which, I'd also appreciate you sharing your own beliefs and what may line up with mine. I used to do that with the high fence guy and found them invaluable learning experiences for both of us. When dealing with larger, more natural high fences, they offer a ton of learning experiences that can apply directly to free range...Along with some that just don't apply, because of the fence. i.e. pretty impossible to apply home range sizes from a fence where they are capped to a max and free range where they could literally relocate 15 miles away, if they truly wanted to for some reason (not saying that happens often at all, just that it can't on a high fence).

 

[Jason Broom]

So, quality of habitat and the prevalence of older age bucks probably changes the dynamic appreciably. I would venture to say that culling a buck for genetic reasons, in a free-range situation, is still herding cats. Outside of the largest and very best managed properties, management decisions should be predicated on apparent age, followed by body size and then antler development. This is particularly pertinent in northern locales, where it can be quite difficult to make such decisions based solely on antler spread or score.

 

[boot]

The only time I would have considered shooting a deer for "Culling" purposes was last season with the buck on the attached image. All season long from October through January I saw him everywhere in our area and he was by far the most aggressive buck I have ever seen. One morning I heard some bucks fighting behind but couldn't see them, then he came running out from where the fight was all bloodied then went over to the opposite hill and fought another buck and lost. He was always trying to run off other bucks regardless of their size. I would have shot him to get him from running off other more mature bucks and plus I don't want to see bucks with head gear like his running around all the time in the future. So i figured if I didn't use my tag and got the chance I would plug him, however I found him in late January dead by the road, the poachers got to him first.

 

[Jason Broom]

Boot, that's just a mean old deer!

Look at the wrinkles in the skin on his neck...he's probably so old, his antlers are past their prime. It's impossible to say what this buck's horns looked like when he was younger, but from the way you described him, he was just old and ornery! Now, he may well have never shown much in the way of antler score, but I bet he could tell a lot of great stories.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

So, quality of habitat and the prevalence of older age bucks probably changes the dynamic appreciably. .

I'm thoroughly convinced of that.

I would venture to say that culling a buck for genetic reasons, in a free-range situation, is still herding cats. .

Completely agree. Toss in yearling buck dispersal and even if you did somehow pull off the near impossible and impact genetics, unless you own 10+ square miles of ground, those super bucks you just created are VERY likely going to be on someone else's ground from 1.5 yrs old and on, anyway. At the same time, you're picking up bucks from other areas each year, also due to yearling buck dispersal, and they're scrambling your genetics all over again.

Outside of the largest and very best managed properties, management decisions should be predicated on apparent age, followed by body size and then antler development. This is particularly pertinent in northern locales, where it can be quite difficult to make such decisions based solely on antler spread or score.

There is no "right" or "wrong" decision on this in my mind, but yours is as good as any as a catch all in my opinion. Personally, I have the clients tell me what their goals are and then design a harvest strategy to try to best achieve it. for most, it's 100% age based. For the bigger land owners that want super studs, it's a combo of age and antlers. Try to get those that show the most promise to 5.5 and hit list the rest of the 3.5+s to reduce social stress and physical strain from increased competition and fighting, knowing you'll at most take out half of those on the hit list, as they don't have the hunter numbers to do more than that.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

The only time I would have considered shooting a deer for "Culling" purposes was last season with the buck on the attached image. All season long from October through January I saw him everywhere in our area and he was by far the most aggressive buck I have ever seen. One morning I heard some bucks fighting behind but couldn't see them, then he came running out from where the fight was all bloodied then went over to the opposite hill and fought another buck and lost. He was always trying to run off other bucks regardless of their size. I would have shot him to get him from running off other more mature bucks and plus I don't want to see bucks with head gear like his running around all the time in the future. So i figured if I didn't use my tag and got the chance I would plug him, however I found him in late January dead by the road, the poachers got to him first.

for the majority of land managers out there, couldn't disagree with what you just wrote if I wanted to, and I don't.

This is the exception to what I said about it being pure age based. 1 absolute bully can really trash the buck numbers when his core area is on a 40, 80, 120-500ish acre piece. What you are describing isn't a normal buck and I haven't averaged having even 1 of them a year on the various grounds I do long term management on. However, when I do have 1, I'm making him the top priority from the opener until he's dead.

 

[Jason Broom]

There is no "right" or "wrong" decision on this in my mind, but yours is as good as any as a catch all in my opinion. Personally, I have the clients tell me what their goals are and then design a harvest strategy to try to best achieve it. for most, it's 100% age based. For the bigger land owners that want super studs, it's a combo of age and antlers. Try to get those that show the most promise to 5.5 and hit list the rest of the 3.5+s to reduce social stress and physical strain from increased competition and fighting, knowing you'll at most take out half of those on the hit list, as they don't have the hunter numbers to do more than that.

One of the benefits of being an enthusiastic amateur is that if I'm working with someone that is really only interested in big antlers, I can politely recuse myself and suggest that they seek the counsel of someone who can accommodate that interest. Basically, if someone can't see the big picture, and sees large racks as the GOAL, not an ancillary benefit, then I am not going to invest my time in helping them get to where they want to be.

It's not right or wrong, I agree with ya there, but it absolutely is about perspective. I don't envy you having to see all sides of that equation, because I am most decidedly biased, myself.

 

[Baker]

Boot, just to continue the conversation, I'll offer a couple of thoughts on the buck you posted pictures of.

But First to address a comment made by Jason. I never cull a deer expecting ANY genetic benefit! Free range, high fence, zoo, it makes no difference. I have removed a mouth which may offer better nutrition for other deer by managing population and I may have saved a better antlered buck from injury or death from one with lessor antlers from fighting. Nothing more.

Now, back to the buck Boot posted. My first impression is that his rack is the way it is from injury to the body or the rack in early velvet. You can see signs at the pedicle. I lean to a physical injury. The best way to judge the quality of a buck like that is to look at the good side to determine potential which in his case is marginally ok for a 3 yr old poor for 4. Most likely that is not a genetic expression. I don't know where that pic was taken and it is hard to judge age from one pic from unknown environs. Best guess is 3 or 4. If a 3 yr old I wouldn't be too concerned about him. The behavior pattern you describe of him sounds 3ish. On my farm at 4 with that rack he would be shot because I have a bunch of much better 4 yr olds.

 

[boot]

for the majority of land managers out there, couldn't disagree with what you just wrote if I wanted to, and I don't.

This is the exception to what I said about it being pure age based. 1 absolute bully can really trash the buck numbers when his core area is on a 40, 80, 120-500ish acre piece. What you are describing isn't a normal buck and I haven't averaged having even 1 of them a year on the various grounds I do long term management on. However, when I do have 1, I'm making him the top priority from the opener until he's dead.

I agree with you on that 100%, I don't go out my way to attempt to purify a gene pool, talk about difficult and useless if not high fenced, but out of all the years I have been hunting our farm I have never seen a buck with that type of behavior and so he did quickly become high on the hit list. I find it interesting as to why he behaved the way he did

 

[Jason Broom]

That's true, Baker...that is just one picture, but he sure looks older than 3 or 4 to me. He's not craning his neck to one side or the other, yet has those distinct wrinkles...I'm still saying he's an OLD buck, declining in age.

My first ever buck was a 3x1 with his teeth worn down so far it was a wonder he was still alive. Maybe I'm just predisposed to think this deer is old because of the antler configuration? Any other pictures of this guy, Boot? Do you have any idea how old he is/was? Maybe you shot him and had him aged?

 

[boot]

Boot, just to continue the conversation, I'll offer a couple of thoughts on the buck you posted pictures of.

But First to address a comment made by Jason. I never cull a deer expecting ANY genetic benefit! Free range, high fence, zoo, it makes no difference. I have removed a mouth which may offer better nutrition for other deer by managing population and I may have saved a better antlered buck from injury or death from one with lessor antlers from fighting. Nothing more.

Now, back to the buck Boot posted. My first impression is that his rack is the way it is from injury to the body or the rack in early velvet. You can see signs at the pedicle. I lean to a physical injury. The best way to judge the quality of a buck like that is to look at the good side to determine potential which in his case is marginally ok for a 3 yr old poor for 4. Most likely that is not a genetic expression. I don't know where that pic was taken and it is hard to judge age from one pic from unknown environs. Best guess is 3 or 4. If a 3 yr old I wouldn't be too concerned about him. The behavior pattern you describe of him sounds 3ish. On my farm at 4 with that rack he would be shot because I have a bunch of much better 4 yr olds.

That good to know, I wasn't sure if that was a injury during velvet or some whacky genetics

 

[boot]

That's true, Baker...that is just one picture, but he sure looks older than 3 or 4 to me. He's not craning his neck to one side or the other, yet has those distinct wrinkles...I'm still saying he's an OLD buck, declining in age.

My first ever buck was a 3x1 with his teeth worn down so far it was a wonder he was still alive. Maybe I'm just predisposed to think this deer is old because of the antler configuration? Any other pictures of this guy, Boot? Do you have any idea how old he is/was? Maybe you shot him and had him aged?

Here are some more pics, sorry I have to downsize and crop them so they will fit

 

[Jason Broom]

OK, after seeing some other pictures, it looks like Baker had it right and I was wrong.

Upon further review, he's probably only 3 or 4, with some kind of injury to cause the antler deformation.

 

[Baker]

I can't make the deer old. Face and head don't look old. Hocks aren't stained. Old bucks don't run around fighting everything in sight { I call old 6 } I lean to 3. That said, I hate aging deer from pics and I hate scoring from pics of deer from herds I don't know.

 

[Baker]

Your posting faster than I can write especially with my wife interrupting without concern for the importance of this mission. I might even lean to 2 now and never cull that young. Also youngsters are always buggering up their racks.

 

[Jason Broom]

Your posting faster than I can write especially with my wife interrupting without concern for the importance of this mission. I might even lean to 2 now and never cull that young. Also youngsters are always buggering up their racks.

I can't picture a 2.5 year-old buck running all over the place, fighting every buck he can find, but some deer are just BORN mean...like some people, unfortunately. Were it that we could employ the same solution for both.

 

[Baker]

Good. What you say fits my beliefs pretty darn well. In Mexico, you're talking low mature buck numbers (I can't speak intelligently to the habitat at all). When I've got low mature buck numbers (which one has by default in low deer number areas), those few mature bucks seem to show up any and everywhere.

About the only real fights I see/am aware of between the 3.5s and the 4.5+s is in that mid Oct period. On the flip side, the only real fights I see/am aware of between 4.5+s is during the rut itself. It seems that a % of those foolish kids (the 3.5s) need to get their butts handed to them once by Mr. Big before they know better. Where I may indeed be wrong is if it's the other 3.5 & 4.5s that inspire the stud 3.5 to shift his core area or if it's him getting his butt handed to him by Mr. Big. I tend to believe it's Mr. Big, as those examples of the youngster returning and staying home within a day or 3 of Mr. Big getting killed, but I'm far from convinced it isn't the other 3.5s & 4.5s doing the nudging.

Like you, I have a lot more 3.5s & 4.5s fighting each other than the 3.5s going toe to toe with 5.5+s. I've just noticed that during that initial mid Oct period and it seems to be done. That doesn't stop them from covering more ground during the rut, though...I believe the 3.5s and to an extent the 4.5s have to in order to score breeding in populations with a good number of mature bucks (5.5+s). Thy still tend to stick more in this area or that, but I also have the ventures into new areas for a day or two way more so than with mature bucks

Also, I have a lot of mature bucks with overlapping core areas. What I don't have is a lot of that where one of them isn't willing to back down from the other's posturing or, as you put it, one just seems to try to avoid the other.

I do want to have this conversation with you some time. In it, I'd like to explain in detail what I believe (you pretty much have it in this thread) and would genuinely appreciate it if you tried shooting holes in those beliefs. After which, I'd also appreciate you sharing your own beliefs and what may line up with mine. I used to do that with the high fence guy and found them invaluable learning experiences for both of us. When dealing with larger, more natural high fences, they offer a ton of learning experiences that can apply directly to free range...Along with some that just don't apply, because of the fence. i.e. pretty impossible to apply home range sizes from a fence where they are capped to a max and free range where they could literally relocate 15 miles away, if they truly wanted to for some reason (not saying that happens often at all, just that it can't on a high fence).

As I've said before...I love this stuff and can talk about it all day. Thru the years I've had full mgt. responsibilities at one time or another for a 5000 acre leased ranch, a 6000 acre leased ranch, 12,000 acres of King Ranch property on the famed Norias Pasture, my 1350 acre farm, and 40,000 acres in Mexico. Most of it has been low fenced properties. I've also managed a 2500 acre, 6000 acre, and 40,000 hi fenced properties . Will look forward to the day.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

It's not right or wrong, I agree with ya there, but it absolutely is about perspective. I don't envy you having to see all sides of that equation, because I am most decidedly biased, myself.

I'll be honest. I don't mind it at all. I'm squarely in the middle class and could never dream of owning a good share of the grounds I've been able to do long term management on, yet the owners turn it over to me and let me essentially do whatever I want, within reason, to help them achieve their goals. Of all the various landowners and outfitters I worked with before them, there's been just 1 outfitter and 1 private landowner that weren't very, very nice and generous people. Most all of the biggest landowners were set on Booner or bust, but they were/are good people and no way I have the opportunity to manage anything over 500 acres without them.

I'll personally manage strictly for age on whatever I buy (finally going to bite the bullet on a cash flow, investment/retirement chunk of dirt, as soon as I find the "right" one). It's fun trying to achieve other's goals, as well, though, and I see it as a learning experience.

P.S. I should say this one more time to be sure there is no confusion. I never kill a buck because I feel I can have any impact on genetics at all.....ever.

 

[Letmgrow]

I agree with others. Not going to change your genetics in free roaming deer. Free range hunters took the "cull buck" term from high fence situations to justify killing bucks that don't meet there ideal criteria. TV hunters use that term every time they shoot a smaller buck. Shoot what makes you happy.
Todd

Your post and post #6 mirror my sentiments exactly.
Poor excuse for shooting a smaller buck. The TV hunter can whisper for 20 takes before he gets the story the way he wants.
Have you ever noticed how the hunter talks normally until the shot from a high powered rifle rang out, the camera crew ran around to take shots from every angle possible, the tongue is cut off so the deer looks good to the viewers then the "hunter" tells you all about what you just saw. Like I needed a rerun? All that time the "Hunter" is whispering.
I had a friend who hunted property just a short distance from mine. I had heard he shot a Spike buck. The others in his group were really upset. I happened to run into him a short time later and he told me " I did you a favor". I asked him how he figured that like I didn't know what was coming next. He said " I culled a spike horn buck which was so old he didn't have teeth anymore". Little did he know a few nights before I was in the cooler at the local processors and I saw this buck. It was so young it still had it's milk teeth! Believe me I know a yearling from an eight year old deer.
When I got done telling him how I didn't give a darn what he shot but don't try to fill me full of something he understood my sentiments totally.
We have a ranch up here which is high fenced. The owner is a trained biologist. He keeps very close track of his deer herd. He knows what is a cull buck and what is one just a little behind in the growth cycle. It is a whole different situation than whacking a small buck then making excuses for why you shot it.
Lynn

 

[Baker]

Earlier in this thread I proposed that most folks don't need to give any consideration to 'culling' . They would be better off letting deer age when reaching maturity they can be big enough to satisfy most. The two bucks in the back of this photo are 4 and 5 respectively. They are examples of deer we will seek to remove this year. I know they will excite most of my hunters. Would you consider this a 'cull'.? No chance the younger one in the front gets taken.