Central Illinois Buck - Surprise at the end

[g squared 23]

So we got exactly one sequence of this deer last summer, and then he disappeared. I believe he was bullied out of the area, as we had several big bodied 8 points with small racks who were overcompensating. I'm sorry for the poor quality of the pictures, but as mentioned, this is all he gave us. Dates in the pics are correct. I'd like to get some votes, and then I will update the thread.

 

[g squared 23]

Well this buck never showed himself in hard horn last year, and we had feared the worst. But he has showed up this year a couple of different times which is encouraging. Hopefully he sticks around and gives us an opportunity.

 

[g squared 23]

It is almost shocking how almost identical his rack is compared to last year. The only thing larger might be the curly kicker off his left main beam, but otherwise he is almost exactly the same. He even is trying to grow that G5 on the left again, but won't quite make it. Pics are 11.25 months apart. Pretty cool. This is a fairly new farm for us, so this is really the first deer we've identified over more than one season.





So the question of course, is this deer mature? I think so, but I'm not great at the aging game, especially outside of November.

It seems he has maxed out antler growth, which was kind of a surprise/disappointment. I've heard elitist deer hunters say "oh he woulda been a booner next year" as a tongue in cheek way of saying the buck doesn't meet their standards, but this deer proves that at least some of the time, they would be dead wrong.

It also tells me that shooting a 3 year old on "accident" shouldn't be met with feelings of guilt. Having goals is great, but this needs to be fun too. Sometimes no matter how old they get, the antlers aren't going to get any bigger. Naturally for all of us who hunt only for age, that isn't a big deal (wink), but a nice huge rack on the wall never hurts.

 

[Buckly]

I think that deer is 5.5 and definitely mature.

 

[Blizzard Ridge]

It is like I always say if you like him and get the chance shoot him. If you have a better deer to target let him walk and see what happens in another year. I have seen bucks actually go down after a good rack year but then come back a year or two later. Depends on the stress on the deer etc. That being said I have seen an old deer get real old and go from a 200" deer to a 150" deer in a years time. I am guessing he is a mature deer by looking at his body so ultimately the choice is yours and there is never a reason to feel guilt after killing a deer. A trophy is in the eye of the tag holder and what they have set as their goals for the season.

 

[Btaylor]

No doubt mature buck and looks plenty good to me.

 

[SIWhitetail]

He's 4 or 5. Great buck! That rack is identical in frame, but he's put on quite a few inches in beam length, width, and a little in tine length.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Unless I have enough years' worth of history with a buck, I never bother trying to get any more specific than "that buck sure looks 4.5+ yrs old to me," and he sure fits that to me. I would have said that based on last year's pic. So, that'd put him at 5.5+ in my book.

As a side note, I think an awful lot of hunters and even a good share of managers would be surprised by how many Midwestern and northern bucks essentially flat line after 3.5. I don't have enough experience with southern bucks to say, but Baker's past comments leads me to believe northern bucks are a year or maybe even 2 ahead of southern bucks, in that regard. In either case, they may have some minor additions some years, but never put on more than 10" over their 3.5 yr old rack. I also think it'd likely surprise many by how many 4.5+ yr old bucks actually take a 10+" dip from the previous year. That seems to happen more with bucks going from 4.5 to 5.5 on the better grounds I've managed...most likely because 4.5s push hard to be a big boy, but the 5.5+s won't quite let them get away with it very easy. So, they run themselves down more during the rut. That said, there's a 6.5 on one of the client's ground this year that will end up 10+ inches short of when he was 5.5, and he'd made a really strong jump from 4.5 to 5.5. I can also point to a few bucks that didn't do much until they were 6.5+, only to add 30+ inches, seemingly out of no where. We can play the odds and do things to help them, but there's still an element of a crap shoot to it all, for me at least.

Long way of saying, "let em go so they can grow" is the best bet, but not every buck gets much bigger and some of them get smaller.

 

[Baker]

Unless I have enough years' worth of history with a buck, I never bother trying to get any more specific than "that buck sure looks 4.5+ yrs old to me," and he sure fits that to me. I would have said that based on last year's pic. So, that'd put him at 5.5+ in my book.

As a side note, I think an awful lot of hunters and even a good share of managers would be surprised by how many Midwestern and northern bucks essentially flat line after 3.5. I don't have enough experience with southern bucks to say, but Baker's past comments leads me to believe northern bucks are a year or maybe even 2 ahead of southern bucks, in that regard. In either case, they may have some minor additions some years, but never put on more than 10" over their 3.5 yr old rack. I also think it'd likely surprise many by how many 4.5+ yr old bucks actually take a 10+" dip from the previous year. That seems to happen more with bucks going from 4.5 to 5.5 on the better grounds I've managed...most likely because 4.5s push hard to be a big boy, but the 5.5+s won't quite let them get away with it very easy. So, they run themselves down more during the rut. That said, there's a 6.5 on one of the client's ground this year that will end up 10+ inches short of when he was 5.5, and he'd made a really strong jump from 4.5 to 5.5. I can also point to a few bucks that didn't do much until they were 6.5+, only to add 30+ inches, seemingly out of no where. We can play the odds and do things to help them, but there's still an element of a crap shoot to it all, for me at least.

Long way of saying, "let em go so they can grow" is the best bet, but not every buck gets much bigger and some of them get smaller.

Here is an interesting addendum to the eternal question of when a buck peaks. In the October 2016 issue of Deer and Deer Hunting Charles Alsheimer writes an article contending that peak antler growth on his bucks in New York is 7 yrs old. He bases that on 20+ years of observing native bucks on his research enclosure. Interesting.

What I know is that bucks on S. Texas and Mexico also 'typically' peak at 7 or 8. There are thousands of savvy managers down there who verify this and it syncs with my own experience. On my farm in La. I havent had enough bucks make it to 7 or older to fully form an opinion. Our 3 biggest bucks were 5,6, and 7 respectively. Of course we will never know if the 5 and 6 yr old would have gotten bigger because we shot them. I wonder how often that is the case? I wonder how many herds around, especially in the north where so much land fragmentation has taken place, let enough bucks age to 6 or 7 plus for there to be valid statistical samples?

Its common knowledge that bucks frequently make a good jump from 3 to 4. This is a function of a maturing skeletal system. From 4 to 6 antler growth can be all over the place primarily from the stresses of rut and recovery challenges. What few folks ever get to see is the second jump that happens later in life when a buck has mellowed his rutting jets, recovers faster, and fully expresses his mature genetic potential.

 

[Baker]

By the way, great group of pictures!

 

[skindog1]

He's at least 4.5 maybe older. I'd tend to say older because most deer make a good jump from 3-4 but not so much from 4-5. Note I said most and not all. There's always exceptions.

 

[Lost Arrow]

Here is an interesting addendum to the eternal question of when a buck peaks. In the October 2016 issue of Deer and Deer Hunting Charles Alsheimer writes an article contending that peak antler growth on his bucks in New York is 7 yrs old. He bases that on 20+ years of observing native bucks on his research enclosure. Interesting.

What I know is that bucks on S. Texas and Mexico also 'typically' peak at 7 or 8. There are thousands of savvy managers down there who verify this and it syncs with my own experience. On my farm in La. I havent had enough bucks make it to 7 or older to fully form an opinion. Our 3 biggest bucks were 5,6, and 7 respectively. Of course we will never know if the 5 and 6 yr old would have gotten bigger because we shot them. I wonder how often that is the case? I wonder how many herds around, especially in the north where so much land fragmentation has taken place, let enough bucks age to 6 or 7 plus for there to be valid statistical samples?

Its common knowledge that bucks frequently make a good jump from 3 to 4. This is a function of a maturing skeletal system. From 4 to 6 antler growth can be all over the place primarily from the stresses of rut and recovery challenges. What few folks ever get to see is the second jump that happens later in life when a buck has mellowed his rutting jets, recovers faster, and fully expresses his mature genetic potential.

I just finished reading that article and found it quite interesting. The only problem I have with it is that they were pen raised deer and didn't have to compete with certain things like deer do in the wild.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

[Btaylor]

Baker that is an interesting point but just does not seem like a reasonable goal for 98% of even the most hardcore managers. Can't imagine the pct of bucks making it to 7.5 is very high unless they have subpar antlers. My guess is one would need control over 1500-2000 acres minimum to have a reasonable expectation of getting more than a single buck consistently to that age. We have 2 bucks that we think are 6 this year so we may get a chance yo see if there is a late jump because odds are not great we will kill both of those deer this year.

 

[Baker]

Baker that is an interesting point but just does not seem like a reasonable goal for 98% of even the most hardcore managers. Can't imagine the pct of bucks making it to 7.5 is very high unless they have subpar antlers. My guess is one would need control over 1500-2000 acres minimum to have a reasonable expectation of getting more than a single buck consistently to that age. We have 2 bucks that we think are 6 this year so we may get a chance yo see if there is a late jump because odds are not great we will kill both of those deer this year.

I think you are absolutely right. Knowing the age of peak antler development is a theoretical idea for most. Understanding that deer, bucks especially, typically cover a lot of acreage makes managing for the older age classes impractical for most. For smaller landowners the idea of cooperatives are about the only possibility and even with that is a challenging. It's why many should focus on managing habitat encouraging deer visitations vs. trying to manage a herd of deer. Notable difference.

Candidly, achieving age goals is the primary advantage of game fencing. I understand that idea is controversial with strong emotional responses. However , game fencing is the most effective way for most to create the opportunity to get bucks to the oldest age classes.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

Baker, I think part of what makes finding the age where buck's max their potential tough is that soooooooooooooooooooooo many outside factors are at play (was there a drought, how hard was the rut on that specific buck, was it a bad acorn year and so on). Over the years, I've had somewhere around 30 bucks get to what I'm confident were 7.5+. I've had a couple bucks grow their best racks at 7.5 and older, but most were already losing inches by 7.5.

As Lost Arrow mentioned, the issue is that Charlie's deer are penned. IMO, that has the ability to massively impact those types of findings. I've never seen Charlie's place, but I've heard from those that have that the fenced area would be considered very small by either of our standards, way smaller than a buck's natural home range. That alone can have a ton of impacts in various ways. I'm afraid I can't remember the exact size, but lets say it's 40 acres. are the bucks going to cover the same distance on a given day in a 40 acre fence as they would in a 400 or 4000 acre fence? I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'd lay my $ on no. How many mature bucks are in that 40 acre fence? If it's only 1, all of a sudden stress from fighting has been removed. I'm guessing that if it's 2 or 3, odds of fights are still drastically reduced, as they have truly grown up with each other and their dominance ranking is likely set very firmly on any given rut. Not to be forgotten is that when one has a small fenced area they also have much greater impact on exactly what the deer eat each day. There's just so many more factors that small fences bring to the table.

Long way of saying that I'd take your findings on very large fenced areas as being a way better judge on when bucks tend to max and I'd have to put even more importance on findings from free range populations.

As a side note, Jay MacKinick (most likely slaughtering his last name) used to be a research biologist for the MN DNR, now heading up the ATA, once told me that the idea of bucks declining after they hit a certain age is a myth. They are not preprogrammed to do so. Instead, it's injuries and the toll of age stressing them that is responsible for declines. If a buck leads a soft life, they're likely to never drop. If he has led a hard life, he's likely to start declining at a younger age, as it's really the stress and their overall health that causes drops, assuming nutrition levels are constant.

 

[Baker]

Baker, I think part of what makes finding the age where buck's max their potential tough is that soooooooooooooooooooooo many outside factors are at play (was there a drought, how hard was the rut on that specific buck, was it a bad acorn year and so on). Over the years, I've had somewhere around 30 bucks get to what I'm confident were 7.5+. I've had a couple bucks grow their best racks at 7.5 and older, but most were already losing inches by 7.5.

As Lost Arrow mentioned, the issue is that Charlie's deer are penned. IMO, that has the ability to massively impact those types of findings. I've never seen Charlie's place, but I've heard from those that have that the fenced area would be considered very small by either of our standards, way smaller than a buck's natural home range. That alone can have a ton of impacts in various ways. I'm afraid I can't remember the exact size, but lets say it's 40 acres. are the bucks going to cover the same distance on a given day in a 40 acre fence as they would in a 400 or 4000 acre fence? I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'd lay my $ on no. How many mature bucks are in that 40 acre fence? If it's only 1, all of a sudden stress from fighting has been removed. I'm guessing that if it's 2 or 3, odds of fights are still drastically reduced, as they have truly grown up with each other and their dominance ranking is likely set very firmly on any given rut. Not to be forgotten is that when one has a small fenced area they also have much greater impact on exactly what the deer eat each day. There's just so many more factors that small fences bring to the table.

Long way of saying that I'd take your findings on very large fenced areas as being a way better judge on when bucks tend to max and I'd have to put even more importance on findings from free range populations.

As a side note, Jay MacKinick (most likely slaughtering his last name) used to be a research biologist for the MN DNR, now heading up the ATA, once told me that the idea of bucks declining after they hit a certain age is a myth. They are not preprogrammed to do so. Instead, it's injuries and the toll of age stressing them that is responsible for declines. If a buck leads a soft life, they're likely to never drop. If he has led a hard life, he's likely to start declining at a younger age, as it's really the stress and their overall health that causes drops, assuming nutrition levels are constant.

We certainly agree that there are numerous factors that effect when a buck may have his best rack. As mentioned I feel very confident that 'most' of the bucks in S. Texas/Mexico peak between 7 and 8. That is a generality but almost all serious managers down there look to get bucks past 6. The biggest buck I ever took off my ranch was 10. Reviewing my annual ranch video from last yr I counted 33 bucks that were 6 or older. That is the typical profile for many years now on my property and would be similar for all the ranches in our 120,000+ acre neighborhood. I am unfamiliar with any place of that continuous scale in the north that allows a preponderance of bucks to exceed 6 yr old with many dyeing of old age. Wouldn't it take something like that for statistical validity?

I remain curious still as to when the bucks on my La. farm as well as most of the north may peak. I am familiar with only one operation in the north that manages for age the way the Texans do [ no buck shot before 6 or 7 ] and that is a property on Long Island New York set up by Dr. Harry Jacobson. The results there are phenomenal however I don't have much detail beyond the photos I see. I see it as impossible to determine peak age unless and until most of the bucks in a given area are allowed to reach the oldest age classes and indeed dyeing of old age. If a few are allowed to be 7 or older but the best ones are shot earlier that foils the survey.

All I know about Charles Alsheimer's pens is what I have read and the pictures I see. Indeed I understand it is 35 acres and I have no idea how many deer he has in it. I still find validity to his findings though. Bucks grow their biggest racks at some age whether in a pen or"free range'. The pen he has allows bucks to achieve these older age classes. I place far less significance to the fact that these deer are in a pen and thats why they grew their biggest rack at 7 yrs old vs a 7 yr old on free range on an equally high nutritional plane. I say that because as bucks move into the oldest age classes of 7 or older their personality changes yet again, they move less, fight less or usually not at all, are well known to their cohorts [ pen or not ] recover quicker after the rut and all that can translate to additional growth for some.

The smallest game fenced property I work with is 2500 acres. The largest is 40,000 acres comprised of 5 ranches. Embedded in there is a 15,000 low fenced pasture. Our neighbor to the east has 10,000 acres low fenced which I am very familiar with. I offer that to say that I think 'free range ' vs game fenced has absolutely no bearing on when a buck peaks at least in that scenario. Whenever they peak I believe it is a function of biology, individual genetics effecting how they age, to some degree how beat up or permanently injured they may have become entering the breeding pool and achieving older age, and certainly how long they are allowed to live. This with the assumption that nutrition is a constant.

Regarding Jay MacKinicks comments I may need to understand better what he is saying. I've watched numerous bucks grow old and die. I filmed a 14 yr old this past season which I'm pretty sure died before season end. I have video of him every yr. since 2004. Without exception all the bucks started running out of antler gas at some age...usually 9ish though some older.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

We certainly agree that there are numerous factors that effect when a buck may have his best rack. As mentioned I feel very confident that 'most' of the bucks in S. Texas/Mexico peak between 7 and 8. That is a generality but almost all serious managers down there look to get bucks past 6. The biggest buck I ever took off my ranch was 10. Reviewing my annual ranch video from last yr I counted 33 bucks that were 6 or older. That is the typical profile for many years now on my property and would be similar for all the ranches in our 120,000+ acre neighborhood. I am unfamiliar with any place of that continuous scale in the north that allows a preponderance of bucks to exceed 6 yr old with many dyeing of old age. Wouldn't it take something like that for statistical validity?

I remain curious still as to when the bucks on my La. farm as well as most of the north may peak. I am familiar with only one operation in the north that manages for age the way the Texans do [ no buck shot before 6 or 7 ] and that is a property on Long Island New York set up by Dr. Harry Jacobson. The results there are phenomenal however I don't have much detail beyond the photos I see. I see it as impossible to determine peak age unless and until most of the bucks in a given area are allowed to reach the oldest age classes and indeed dyeing of old age. If a few are allowed to be 7 or older but the best ones are shot earlier that foils the survey.

All I know about Charles Alsheimer's pens is what I have read and the pictures I see. Indeed I understand it is 35 acres and I have no idea how many deer he has in it. I still find validity to his findings though. Bucks grow their biggest racks at some age whether in a pen or"free range'. The pen he has allows bucks to achieve these older age classes. I place far less significance to the fact that these deer are in a pen and thats why they grew their biggest rack at 7 yrs old vs a 7 yr old on free range on an equally high nutritional plane. I say that because as bucks move into the oldest age classes of 7 or older their personality changes yet again, they move less, fight less or usually not at all, are well known to their cohorts [ pen or not ] recover quicker after the rut and all that can translate to additional growth for some.

The smallest game fenced property I work with is 2500 acres. The largest is 40,000 acres comprised of 5 ranches. Embedded in there is a 15,000 low fenced pasture. Our neighbor to the east has 10,000 acres low fenced which I am very familiar with. I offer that to say that I think 'free range ' vs game fenced has absolutely no bearing on when a buck peaks at least in that scenario. Whenever they peak I believe it is a function of biology, individual genetics effecting how they age, to some degree how beat up or permanently injured they may have become entering the breeding pool and achieving older age, and certainly how long they are allowed to live. This with the assumption that nutrition is a constant.

Regarding Jay MacKinicks comments I may need to understand better what he is saying. I've watched numerous bucks grow old and die. I filmed a 14 yr old this past season which I'm pretty sure died before season end. I have video of him every yr. since 2004. Without exception all the bucks started running out of antler gas at some age...usually 9ish though some older.

I agree that It'd take something of a similar scale in the north. I don't pretend to know when the average peak is up here. If forced to guess, I'd put my money on 6.5. I'm basing that on both my experiences on large free range tracts and the experiences of another manager that runs an 1800 acre, natural genetics, no artificial feeding high fence. I've just had sooooooooooo many that actually dropped from 4.5-5.5 or 5.5-6.5 and a respectable number that dropped 6.5-7.5, as well as bucks that made jumps seemingly out of no where, that I can't pretend I'm right on that, just that it's my best guess....And I agree that it takes very big numbers of bucks dying of old age over many years to come up with what one can view as a concrete answer to when the ave peak out at.

We'll have to respectfully agree to disagree on to what extent we believe fighting, injuries and I'll add in disease impact when bucks racks peak. Also complicating matters in northern states is that relatively few allow year round feeding, and nutrition can and does vary fairly significantly year to year, based on growing conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if fighting doesn't impact northern deer more than southern deer, in that they both likely endure very similar rut and fighting stress levels, but Midwestern and northern deer than face winter right after breeding. Winter can be VERY stressful on northern deer (winter kill is not uncommon) and even be a significant factor for Midwesterners. So, they get a 2 punch combo right after each other, while southern deer don't know what winter is. So, they likely are able to recover easier from fighting, with comparatively little winter stress and still having a surplus of nutrition (nutrition levels are at a seasonal low in winter up here...way, way lower that any other season).

Again, we'll have to respectfully disagree on the size of the fence and number of similar aged bucks inside it not impacting antler growth. In my mind, if you don't have to fight for breeding opportunities, I have to believe the odds of long term bumps and bruises making future years harder drops to virtually nothing, where I am convinced that's a very significant factor in what a buck will grow on his head. If you only have 1 buck and a couple does in a fence, there is no fighting and they don't have to work as hard for breeding, which theoretically massively reduces stress, which is a major part of why many deer farmers separate bucks during the rut. I can see your point on the large fenced areas, though, assuming population dynamics are reasonably similar to free range.

Jay was saying that it's the price we all pay getting old (long term physical degeneration) that causes racks to go down, not something coded into their system. So, Let's say Charlie's buck was the only one in the pen with a couple does. Odds would say that buck would most likely be healthier at 7 (because of no fighting and not working hard at all to find those couple does) than the same aged free range buck living on grounds with healthy population dynamics (he likely fights and works much, much harder to find does, running himself down at a way higher rate than a buck in such a controlled environment). All else being equal, the small penned buck should have way less stress and larger racks for a longer period of time. I'm not saying he's right or wrong...just passing on what he told me.

I'm NOT trying to say I'm right and you're wrong on anything we're respectfully disagreeing on. This is just my opinion and I'll be the first to say that it would take a lot more of a controlled environment than I have access to to "prove" any of this. Also, I understand high fences are a touchy issue. I'm not ripping the fences and think conclusions drawn on high fence deer generally don't get the credit they deserve. That said, I do also believe that the fences do have an impact, as well. The most obvious is that the deer can't leave that area if they choose, where as free rangers can leave anywhere at any time. I do believe fences can/do have an impact. I haven't seen any 300" free range bucks, let alone 400"+. I'm NOT trying to be offensive with that statement and personally have nothing at all against high fences. If it wasn't for professional reasons, I'd LOVE to manage a natural genetics, large high fence. To not have to scheme to get bucks to spend as much time on your ground as practically possible would be sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nice and reduce management stress levels incredibly.

I don't even have an issue with small high fences. I don't see the small high fences as being any different than raising and slaughtering cattle. It isn't for me, but neither is being a beef farmer and I have nothing against that, either.

 

[cutman]

What if fighting actually improves rack quality? I'm just throwing it out there, but the physiological mechanism would be related to testosterone levels.

Increased buck numbers could lead to increased testosterone in the breeding/fighting animal age class, which would potentially affect the antlers as they are growing AND when it's time for them to shed during the winter. Animals dropping from a higher level of testosterone may shed earlier than those with less drastic hormone changes, and because they shed earlier they can start growing the NEXT rack earlier.

Makes sense in my head.

 

[Steve Bartylla]

I wouldn't find something like that shocking. The catch for me is that bunches of anecdotal observations indicate the opposite for me. The most obvious example was when EHD & BT disproportionately slammed the does on a large property I managed. It resulted in a sex ratios that was higher in bucks than does. The surviving bucks beat the snot out of each other and I had a disproportionately high drop in racks the next year. I can point to other individual examples where bucks showed signs of a lot of fighting (1 broke tine today...2 a week later and a snapped beam a few days later) and they also seem to have a disproportionately high drop rate for the next year. A respectable % of the time, those that survived both the high fighting year and the drop year bounced back the following.

Here's the catch though. Was it really because of the signs of elevated fighting? Was it maybe instead due to dogging does harder? Was it a combo of the two (my bet)? Was it coincidence and something completely unrelated that I didn't pick up on? I can't swear it wasn't any of those things....just an educated guess from trying to connect dots.

As a side note, the high fence manager I know swears that when the dominant bully is removed that the next in line often makes a disproportionately higher jump the next year. I've tried to validate that with anecdotal evidence. I can't say I believe he's wrong and I can see how that'd make sense (more dominant bucks have been shown to reduce testosterone levels in submissive bucks and younger bucks) and bully bucks may indeed cause elevated stress levels in those he challenges, even if they back down each time. I can connect the dots in a logical fashion in my mind, but I don't pretend to even have enough anecdotal evidence to back his theory up.

 

[Buckly]

Is there an age where the deer teeth become so worn that it affects their eating and nutrition? Seeing it hasn't been mentioned yet I figure no, or is it at an age well beyond 6 or 7 that we're talking about here.