Antler Conformation

“This is due to adaptation to thick cover. Wide antlers match open spaces---the Midwest---crop fields and open plains. In areas of heavy cover, thick woods and thickets, bucks have developed through evolution/adaptation, high, more narrow antlers.”

The only way that could ever make sense was if does brought nothing to the table genetically, AND we routinely found wide-racked dead bucks in thickets, before they had a chance to breed. Since they can and do breed at 1.5, at which age even the widest bucks are unlikely to be 15" wide, well ...
 
Know this-a six-month old button buck, can, will and does breed as many does as they will allow it. Do not confuse anomaly with basic standard. If you measure 100 bucks with inside spreads of 14-20 inches, what is the standard? When it comes to inside spread, what percentage of the genetic input is from the female side of the equation? What percentage of from the male side and what percentage is adaptation?

There are hundreds of obfuscations in the world of genetics. Common sense, is a rarity.
 
I'll chime in on this conversation. My ranch in the brush country along the Rio Grande River is some of the thickest country imaginable. Was a part of a vast million acre plus thick brush ocean before man just a few years ago began clearing a few roads and fields. From my ranch we have taken the second widest net B&C buck in the world at 31 1/2" inside spread. We have also grown a 33" inside spread buck .There are numerous bucks every year 25" i.s. on the ranch. Heck I was watching a buck yesterday that I estimated at 28". A 9 yr old. All this just my personal experience.

Science has also proven that genetics can be shifted over time via the epigenetic response to the environment. This true and proven from people to deer and I suppose many things in between . Wanna see the deer herd in your area improve their overall antler size? Simply improve the nutritional plane over a few generations and there will be a response. Age is a given if you want to see full genetic expression.
 
Okay...and you are offering this as a rebuttal? You are, if you think about it, confirming exactly my point. You are proving exactly what I said. I am familiar with your ranch. I am also familiar that it cannot be used a "constant". You produce, on a semi-regular basis, some outstanding bucks. Why do you suppose that is?
 
Bowriter said:
Okay...and you are offering this as a rebuttal? You are, if you think about it, confirming exactly my point. You are proving exactly what I said. I am familiar with your ranch. I am also familiar that it cannot be used a "constant". You produce, on a semi-regular basis, some outstanding bucks. Why do you suppose that is?
Click to expand...
Are you referring to my post? If so yes I am suggesting there is no correlation between habitat density and the relative width of antlers. Please explain how I am confirming your point? Help me understand your comment about not using my ranch as a constant? Do appreciate that not just my ranch has exceptionally wide bucks but a a great deal of the country from south of San Antonio thru the brush country of Mexico ...all very thick...consistently produce wide deer. And that the 'average ' buck in south Tx/Mexico is wider than bucks in most if not all other parts of the country.

Just to understand where you are coming from you state that we produce ," on a semi-regular basis, some outstanding bucks" . What standard are you using? While you say you are familiar with my ranch, what do you think the top end of our ranch produces every year?

I propose that we produce world class bucks every year because we have elevated the nutritional plane to a constant year round for about 23 years now and we have a significant % of bucks that are 6 yrs old and older.
 
Age aside, nutrition, or soil fertility is probably the biggest driving source. Read about nutrition and Epi-genetics and the Mississippi State studies on supplemental feeding. Equal nutrition pretty much makes them all equal, two generations down the road.
 
I am sure you both are correct. I do not include places like Sampson Ridge or The Sanctuary or others in my figuring. For obvious reasons and as well, some ranches. That aside, I'm sure you are right.
 
I believe think these discussions valuable and will quickly agree that there are countless variables that effect outcomes in deer and deer mgt. Just for fun thought I would post a pic of what I consider a wide deer to be as wide can be a judgement call. This a 7 yr old I filmed last year.IMG_4458.JPG
 
Bowriter said:
I am sure you both are correct. I do not include places like Sampson Ridge or The Sanctuary or others in my figuring. For obvious reasons and as well, some ranches. That aside, I'm sure you are right.
Click to expand...
I don't know anything about Sampson Ridge or The Sanctuary but why would you exclude 'some ranches' { I'm assuming you are referring to mine or ranches in general throughout S.Tx.} in a discussion about genetic adaptation to habitat? Interestingly I find it unique that the deer herd in the area where I am may be one of the last and only deer herds anywhere that has not had animals transferred in from other places. Perhaps one of the few 'pure ' strains left anywhere. Wouldn't that add more to any discussion on genetic and antlers adaptation to an area?
 
Baker said:
I believe think these discussions valuable and will quickly agree that there are countless variables that effect outcomes in deer and deer mgt. Just for fun thought I would post a pic of what I consider a wide deer to be as wide can be a judgement call. This a 7 yr old I filmed last year.View attachment 14372
Click to expand...

That deer is so wide he can only walk down the road.
 
dogghr said:
All I know is rephrasing Jaws.... I’m gonna need a taller pair of boots.


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Click to expand...

You will likely need chest waders for any Bowriter post. There are countless examples on other forums to support this hypothesis!


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I think what people need to understand about the whole wide-narrow rack theory is that it’s just a tendency Deer in areas of thick cover to have smaller, narrow racks.
He’s not saying that most bucks in these thick cover areas will have narrow racks, the idea is that this area will have a higher percentage of bucks with narrow racks. It could even be a difference of 5%.. it doesn’t have to be a huge difference.
If a trait gives an animal even a slightly higher chance of dying, then over thousands of years, that trait will slowly begin to disappear.
Just my ramblings on the topic


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Baker - I love your photo of the WIDE buck. I live in middle TN as does Bowriter and I don't get to see any buck with a spread within 8 or 10 inches of the buck you filmed.

Regarding the discussion - it just wouldn't be fun if I agreed with everything I read on this forum.

Wayne
 
IMG_3861.jpg

Little food for the thought. In our mountains of WV we see all different types of bucks, tall and wide. The buck I killed this year had double split brows, my dad and grandfather haven’t seen that in the 50 years of hunting at our camp until 2 years ago in my buck he was 22 inches wide and had good length. We saw a 2 year old this year who also has them, that’s genetics. The link is also a good read.
http://fwrc.msstate.edu/pubs/antler.pdf


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To answer the question, "Why do I not include some ranches?" It is because some "ranches" are breeding facilities where various growth enhancing drugs are administered. There is even a TV show about one of them. Penned deer or "canned" operations are taken into consideration. As for an ignore link, yes there is one. It is called personal decision. No one is required to read any post I make. My posts are designed to make people discuss and think. I realize, many are incapable of both.
 
There is one problem with most deer laboratories. They are, by need, behind a high fence. That skews many of the intrinsic factors. That is not to say, a great deal of information cannot be gained. Some great material is coming out of some of the university studies. John Ozoga, in WI did some tremendous research and his was totally on a wild, free-range population. I suggest you look up his voluminous study of scrapes, rubs and licking branches.
 
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