Too many does?

[Kwood]

This is the 4th season with our 119 acre property. We have done a lot of work to add food and improve bedding.

Last year we had a lot of mature bucks and several 4+ year old deer made the season.

This year so far we have had fewer mature bucks on camera than any other year and most of the ones we believe to have made it are gone. I am also seeing more does (young and mature) than ever before. Tonight I saw 15+ antlerless deer, 5 mom/fawn pairs.

Could the does be running off the bucks? I'm hoping the draw them in come rut but are seeing fewer bucks than we are used to.


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[DocHolladay]

I don't think the doe will run bucks off the property, but they may keep them at bay if there are limited resources for food. The bucks may be keying in on other food sources right now and you just don't have your cameras in the right location to see them. I like to try and shoot a doe or 3 every year for my meat and a buck if it is the one I want. I used to try and shoot 5-6 deer a year. I would grind 1 or 2 up for jerky(back straps and all), 2 for burger(back straps and all) and 2 for steaks and roasts. Most of the time, I would just shoot 5, but if I had several family members wanting jerky, I would shoot another.

For some reason, people have a hard time shooting a doe in the early season because "they are saving them for the rut". If you shoot a doe after the rut, technically, you are shooting 2-3 deer if she was bred and it took. I will shoot a doe whenever the urge hits me, early season or late.

 

[SwampCat]

In my hunting ground, there is no such thing as too many does. Fifteen years ago, that might have been true - not now. Bucks travel a long way to prime food sources - does not so far. I agree - your bucks are somewhere your cameras are not.

 

[Kwood]

Makes me feel better. Central Il ag country and lots of corn still in. Probably the answer.


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[Doe Shooter]

IMO, I believe does do claim the best habitat. An antlerless buck and doe are on equal footing as far as fighting is concerned and does tend to run in groups.In my part of Illinois we saw a herd collapse a few years ago. The reasons for this are debatable. However the lower number of deer forced bucks onto their feet to look longer and farther and all day sits paid off with the best bucks taken in a decade for us. When a buck does not have to go far to find a girl friend your less likely to see them.Where I'm at crops are pretty much out. Our numbers are rebounding with each year a little bit better crop of does. I agree with Doc. Shoot more does and buy a grinder.

 

[jteeen]

Put more cameras out. I too thought that we had no bucks and hunted other properties. Turns out there are plenty, they just live next door and travel to our property to breed. I put more cameras up and started pinning down their travel corridors. Put them up in pairs or you're not much better off if you're trying to pattern for early season. We have 3-4 permanent does with fawns and when the herd forms in the winter it's 10-20. I don't kill the resident does early in the season. I enjoy seeing this small deer family throughout the year. I took a doe last year after the mega herd had formed, and I don't think the property is any worse off.

 

[jsasker007]

For me does=live decoys. Does run off their own buck fawns after a year(natures way to avoid inbreeding).

 

[Doe Shooter]

For me does=live decoys. Does run off their own buck fawns after a year(natures way to avoid inbreeding).

True to a point. Years ago we had 10 to 1 and 45+ per square mile.If you like to make a lot of deer burger, it was great.

 

[jsasker007]

I like to see the does in spring with a couple tiny fawns in the foodplots that I made and then watch them grow up over the summer. Makes a person feel like they finally did something worthwhile. The "regulars" are safe at my house. We don't have great deer numbers where I'm at but the mn dnr doesn't seem to really know much of anything, and doesn't seem capable of learning from other states on how to properly manage deer. jmho

 

[Kwood]

I also understand does are sign of healthy heard. We don't have huge piece (120 acres). We probably have at least 6-7 different does with at least a fawn if not twins on our property at any given moment. Heck, this past weekend I had that many walk under one stand on one corner of the property.


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[Berserker]

Take it for it is worth, but I read a book saying to many does will kill bucks. Wear themselves out before winter. Dunno if true. But I do think there is a correct ratio, and it is not to all the does you can have.

 

[Buckly]

And too few doe will cause more intense fighting and that will kill bucks

 

[Baker]

I can tell you from personal experience that when my ratio got to be 2 or 3 bucks per doe I had a lot more buck mortality than when the ratio was about 1/1. Fighting deaths, eyes knocked out, wounds and gashes were a big problem most noticeable especially in the 3 yr olds and to some degree the 4 yr olds though no age class was immune. The problem with a ratio slanted to does is the rut last longer and the bucks run down more and start the new growing season in poorer shape but still surviving. You also have more younger bucks involved in breeding which isn't really a good thing. I currently think 1/1 about right especially if you have an appropriate number of fully mature bucks in the herd which tends to control everything.

Bucks and does do choose their own territories in the summer though they can overlap. The bucks always know where the does are. There is constant daily jockeying for dominance between all deer but to think does dominate mature bucks at any time of the year doesn't match my observations at all. It is very hard to see the big picture of a deer herd when only looking at a very small portion of a herds habitat. Regardless of the ratio a rutting buck is apt to go on a lengthy walkabout on any given day and several miles is not unusual. Also not unusual for a buck to spend all summer in one location then move a significant distance and set up shop for the entire rut then move back to his summer range at antler shed. See this regularly.

 

[Kwood]

Baker (or anyone), here is my question. With 135 acres I can't manage the herd, especially with the hunting pressure we have around us, ag, and connecting timber.

I do feel like there are fewer mature bucks than I remember based on camera returns.

I understand I may not be getting the whole picture, but I'm there enough and run enough cameras I think I'm accurate.

My two observations: more mature does and fawns, fewer total bucks.

Is it possible the does are running them off? Could the one mature buck (returner from last year I believe to be 4 or 5) be more dominant and running some off?

Would you recommend killing does? I have not taken a doe off this property in 4 years because neighbors kill a bunch and EHD was bad in 2012/2013 to the herd. It's back now.

Here is property and surrounding area:

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[DocHolladay]

I shoot doe anyway. The total number is up to you and what you are looking for. If you don't want to kill a doe, let a kid or new hunter shoot one, that way you don't feel bad because it goes against your principles.

Its been several years, but I read that a mature buck has a total home range of 1000-1500 acres(this was probably before GPS collars). The QDMA published a study by a guy and he tested 37 bucks on 6400 acres that has quality habitat management and home ranges were 108 acres to 754 acres(age really didn't matter). Of course, I am sure that no matter how big or small a home range is, it grows once the rut starts to kick in.

 

[Chainsaw]

I can tell you from personal experience that when my ratio got to be 2 or 3 bucks per doe I had a lot more buck mortality than when the ratio was about 1/1. Fighting deaths, eyes knocked out, wounds and gashes were a big problem most noticeable especially in the 3 yr olds and to some degree the 4 yr olds though no age class was immune. The problem with a ratio slanted to does is the rut last longer and the bucks run down more and start the new growing season in poorer shape but still surviving. You also have more younger bucks involved in breeding which isn't really a good thing. I currently think 1/1 about right especially if you have an appropriate number of fully mature bucks in the herd which tends to control everything.

Bucks and does do choose their own territories in the summer though they can overlap. The bucks always know where the does are. There is constant daily jockeying for dominance between all deer but to think does dominate mature bucks at any time of the year doesn't match my observations at all. It is very hard to see the big picture of a deer herd when only looking at a very small portion of a herds habitat. Regardless of the ratio a rutting buck is apt to go on a lengthy walkabout on any given day and several miles is not unusual. Also not unusual for a buck to spend all summer in one location then move a significant distance and set up shop for the entire rut then move back to his summer range at antler shed. See this regularly.

Maintaining the ideal number of does per buck is a perplexing challenge. From your experience and as pointed out in Buckly's post, it is certain that a one to one ratio is not a good thing for the bucks that get themselves wounded or dead in the battle for does. On the other hand as you and Berserker pointed out, too many does will leave the bucks alive but in a worn out condition at the end of the rut. Presumably five does per buck is too many yet if two or three does to one buck is ideal and one property is striving for the "ideal" ratio while the surrounding area has five does or more, the poorer buck hunting would likely be on the property striving for the ideal ratio.

I think this let the neighbors shoot the does doesn't work unless neighbors are going way overboard but we also can not ourselves manage the neighborhood from our property without pushing the deer out. My plan is to shoot a few does as the spring browse walkabouts and other indicators point to and to tell everyone in the area that will listen what those browse surveys are indicating carrying capacity wise and encourage them to do the same. At this time if browse surveys indicate too many deer we here, in this area can be sure it means too many does and not too many bucks. Tossed into the equation of course is that a spring browse survey on this property may point to a population completely different than a property even right next door to it. Throw in that the deer do yard in this area and that affects our ability to "see" the whole herd but it still is one indicator as flawed as it can be.

Thus one of the other indicators of too many, not enough does is fall condition of the bucks on the property. If two and 1/2 year olds and up are carrying decent racks then our doe population is probably not too far out of whack. We have never seen deer here, bucks or does look undernourished body wise in the fall. Body weights in the fall have so far remained steady over the years.

I'm leaning towards a couple of does to a buck as being a good ratio here. That gives us two does and two fawns to breed per buck each fall. Some where else where the bucks do not have to endure a long and difficult cold hungry winter, the optimum might be different of course, I have no idea on that. All of this is not to say that if this 600 acres were down to one buck that two does would be optimal. At That point the ratio goes out the window and it is rebuilding herd time. There the spring browse survey would presumably tell us don't shoot anything! So while we have no definitive answers to this perplexing challenge, we do at least have more understanding than we all did before the doe overshooting years.

 

[Baker]

I had the privilege of being on the historic King Ranch for several years when they first opened the property to the public. We leased 12,000 acres on the Norias Pasture which was well over 100,000 acres. Essentially there had never been any deer hunting on the ranch so you had a herd that was about as representative of what nature would produce as anywhere in the world. The b/d ratio was about 1 1/2 does for every buck. Buck age structure had over 50% of the bucks 5 yrs old and older. Was a very cool place to hang out and observe a herd that behaved for all practical purposes unaffected by man.

I believe that when one is dealing with highly fragmented acreage being concerned about the b/d ratio isn't nearly as important as how many mature bucks are in a typical management unit. Look at the thousand acres surrounding a smaller parcel and ask the question of hunting pressure and how many 4 yr old or older bucks may actually be there. A buck usually spends several days with a doe as she approaches estrous [ 3-5 ] maybe more. He may only breed 3-4 does during the entire rut. By the time he is fully mature he knows all the does in 'his' area , knows where to travel to find them, and all the other bucks know him as well. Thats why most of the fighting and killing is with the 3 and 4 yr olds. They are establishing their area, dominance, and fighting their way to the breeding pool.

All that said, on fragmented properties I wouldn't worry about ratios. Id take whatever does I wanted for food. I'd create attractive habitat to support a population that made me happy.I would be very sensitive to the amount of pressure the deer experienced. And I would do everything I could to encourage everyone around to allow bucks to age. I'd realize that I am not managing a deer herd, I am managing a small piece of habitat that is a part of a much bigger picture and I would do everything within my means to have fun and make it attractive to as many critters as possible.

I have learned that it is extremely hard to hunt mature bucks if there are none around cause the neighbors are shooting them when they are 2 or 3 or even 4 when they are most vulnerable and moving around a lot to establish a spot for themselves.

 

[Jeff H]

Baker (or anyone), here is my question. With 135 acres I can't manage the herd, especially with the hunting pressure we have around us, ag, and connecting timber.

I do feel like there are fewer mature bucks than I remember based on camera returns.

I understand I may not be getting the whole picture, but I'm there enough and run enough cameras I think I'm accurate.

My two observations: more mature does and fawns, fewer total bucks.

Is it possible the does are running them off? Could the one mature buck (returner from last year I believe to be 4 or 5) be more dominant and running some off?

Would you recommend killing does? I have not taken a doe off this property in 4 years because neighbors kill a bunch and EHD was bad in 2012/2013 to the herd. It's back now.

Here is property and surrounding area:

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I'm in a very similar situation with 100 acres and a ton of does. I've been watching my does carefully this year and am pretty sure I'm going to target a couple of old does that I feel are bullying the other deer in the area. It's not easy to target an old doe as they are very wary. I have no idea if it will change the herd dynamics but not knowing what else to do that is my course of action.

 

[Kwood]

Baker, this is perfect. What I was expecting to hear from you. I’ve always felt like the more attractive out property is the more likely it becomes a key segment of the overall territory.

I also love seeing healthy does and fawns call it Home. I just like hunting mature bucks and wanted to make sure I’m not doing a disservice.

I think there is enough pressure around to take care of most the killing and then some.


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[Berserker]

I'd rather shoot a doe than a little buck. IMO we need to change the attitude that it has to be a buck. Shooting a spike, rather than a doe, is no more accomplishment. But I also don't want to see buck first laws. Who is going to pass on the big one? Making criminals, or dissapointed hunters.

Obviously it varies by area. No does in most of UP. I am in snow belt. On my camera I see a lot of does, and few bucks. I had a 6-7 group for awhile. That seems to skewed.