The Year of The Oaks

[Native Hunter]

Enjoying this thread - my farm in the ozark mountains have a lot of these oaks you are talking about. A couple of observations that may help some :
-Our white oak species (mainly White Oak, Swamp White Oaks, and a few Swamp Chestnut Oaks i believe - my grandfather called them cow oaks) grow where the soil is the deepest on the farm - the bottom land and hill side benches, rarely any where else. my grandfather's saying was "if you see a white oak, you have good dirt there".
-Our Red Oaks (mainly black oaks and blackjack oaks, some plain jane red oaks) grow up on the ridge tops and steeper side hills.
-The Chinkapin Oaks grow in both the deeper soils in the bottoms and shallower soiled ridge tops, but not so much on the steeper side hills. The Chinkapin oaks are typically taller than the Red Oaks when growing near each other, but about the same overall height as the white oaks in the bottoms.
-The Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks grow on the thin ridge top soil that also have rock outcrops. These trees that I have "self-identified" have grown about 15-20 feet tall max, and form a what we in texas refer to as a "motte" style cluster (not to steal doggr's random clusters idea). They have been the same size for probably the last 10 years or so - didn't know what they were until recently from this forum.

As for which one is best for wildlife, the chinkapin and dwark chinkapin are the winners here. when they are dropping, the deer and turkey flood the area until the acorns are gone. My dad had a friend send him game pictures of a tom and small buck "chasing" each other around this tree on his property. My dad told the guy "you have a chinkapin oak right there", the guy asked my dad how he knew, and my dad responded - "that same thing happens on our farm when the chinkapins are dropping". The dwarf chinkapins are located on the lot next to my uncle's house - my uncle sends pictures and texts all the time when they are dropping of turkey and deer in the "mottes".

We are currently working on planting White Oaks, Chinkapin Oaks, and Dwarf Chinkapin Oaks. We are trying to Ring our Fields with White Oaks and Chinkapins, replacing the Black Walnuts my grandfather and his father planted on the field edges. Then we are going in the fields to create what we hope is more "mottes" of Dwarf Chinkapins to replace the Black Locust trees that have started filling in the fields. Also using the Dwarf Chinkapin oaks as replacement trees for the ridge top glades we are clearing of cedars.

We have all the red oaks we could ever want, and have started cutting them down to replace with a variety of white oaks, along with making wood for barbecue. I'm pretty sure I cut red oaks the rest of my lifetime and not get them all.

I am trying to get some bur oaks, concordia oaks, and others growing around the farm; but my uncle has ran over 70% of them with the brush hog. He claims he didn't know they were planted, but he helped plant them - i'm starting to think he doesn't want them, and just trying to be "nice" about it.

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread, and it sounds like you have put a lot of thought into developing your plan for oaks. I'm really glad to have found lots of the white oak family species that you mentioned. From here on out I will be trying to watch them closer for acorn production. Thanks for your comments.

 

[shedder]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11258-021-01115-7

Both weather and resources influence masting in chestnut oak (Quercus montana Willd.) and black oak (Q. velutina Lam.)

• S. J. Smith,
• B. C. McCarthy,
• T. F. Hutchinson &
• R. S. Snell

Plant Ecology volume 222, pages409–420 (2021)Cite this article
Abstract
Masting is the synchronous and highly variable production of fruit within a population. Although several hypotheses have been proposed to explain why and how masting evolved in plants as a reproductive strategy, the factors that trigger a large reproductive effort in a particular year are still not well understood. While both weather and resources have been proposed to play an important role, testing these hypotheses has been challenging due to a lack of long-term data and appropriate experimental designs. In this manuscript, we used 18 years of acorn production data to analyze the relationship between resources, weather, and masting in black oak (Quercus velutina) and chestnut oak (Q. montana). The data were collected in southeast Ohio as part of the Fire and Fire Surrogate (FFS) study, which applied silvicultural treatments (i.e., thinning and prescribed fires) to reduce competition and manipulate resources. We found species-specific responses to the thinning and fire treatments, with an overall increase in acorn production for chestnut oak in the thin + burn treatment and an increase for black oak in the thin-only treatment compared to the control. Chestnut oak reproduction also had strong positive relationships with warm spring temperatures, and a positive change in summer temperatures compared to the previous year (i.e., summer temperatures that went from cool to warm). For black oak, warm spring temperatures increased acorn production while later starts to spring warming the year before decreased acorn production. These results support the hypotheses that both resources and weather (as a cue and as a limiting factor) are important for masting in oaks. Thus, both factors should be included in predictive models for acorn production under current and future climate conditions.



This may interest some. tThe full pdf download is there as well.

 

[Native Hunter]

I'm taking a short break on this thread but will get going again soon. I know that I was getting acorns on some of my trees, because I have found lots of seedlings. But today I saw it for sure - as I was doing some other work, I noticed this tree at the edge of the planting. The tree looked loaded with developing acorns this year.

 

[dogghr]

Break?? What the hey? What will we live for to read on a daily basis? Fake news?

 

[amdcpus]

Really enjoyed reading this thread, and would definitely be interested if you posted more.

 

[Native Hunter]

Really enjoyed reading this thread, and would definitely be interested if you posted more.

Thanks, I will try to get back on this thread someday. I did look at a few of the oak trees yesterday. We have a nice crop of sawtooths on most trees. These will drop in October and November. I also checked a few Swamp Chestnut Oaks, because I am especially interested in them. They are high quality food that drops in November. The majority of those had a good crop as well.

 

[Native Hunter]

Hello everyone. I have just been on a marathon replacing all of the broken picture links in this thread. The problem happened when Imgur pictures started showing up as a red X. I now have all of the pictures showing up again by uploading them directly without using a photo posting service. My intentions are to eventually finish this thread up with all of the oaks I haven't covered yet.

In the meantime, I will give you a few updates on the oaks:

* The tree planting is loaded with acorns this year. That includes both white and red oak species.

* Swamp Chestnut Oaks are especially loaded and just beginning to drop. They are highly preferred. I had read that they were so low in tannins that humans could eat them without leaching. Today I tried that, and sure enough they were edible. To me they tasted like chestnuts that were just a few days from getting that sweet taste - but they had no bitterness. I tried a regular white oak after that, and they were not nearly as good.

* This is also a big year for regular white oaks and sawtooths. These species drop at about the same time on my place. The whites are slightly preferred, but the sawtooths are getting gobbled up right now too.

* Chestnut Oaks and Post Oaks are early droppers, and both had good crops. I watched deer eating them too before other acorns started dropping. Chinkapin Oaks are also early, but I believe I had a crop failure on them this year.

Okay, I'm worn out from fixing all these pictures. I need to rest......

 

[yoderjac]

I had the same issue with photobucket years ago. I got pissed when they held my picture links hostage for payment. I considered going to Imgr or other commercial photo-servers, but there was nothing to prevent them from doing the same thing down the road. I finally wrote my own personal photo-server. I no longer worry about having to go fix picture links.

 

[Native Hunter]

I had the same issue with photobucket years ago. I got pissed when they held my picture links hostage for payment. I considered going to Imgr or other commercial photo-servers, but there was nothing to prevent them from doing the same thing down the road. I finally wrote my own personal photo-server. I no longer worry about having to go fix picture links.

Actually, it’s very easy to post pictures on the forum with nothing special at all. Just hit the picture link icon and you can post directly from your phone or laptop.

The only reason I liked using Imgur was that it made it easier to post on both forums. I could post on one and copy everything including the Imgur links to the other. The way I’m doing it now makes that a little harder, but if posting on only one forum the method I’m using now is as easy as ever.

 

[yoderjac]

Yes, one can upload pictures directly to the forum. I don't like to do this for several reasons. First, they take up space on the forum server so many forums have limits on picture size. Second, like you, I may want to post the same picture in more than one place. Finally, you lose control of the picture.

 

[Native Hunter]

Yes, one can upload pictures directly to the forum. I don't like to do this for several reasons. First, they take up space on the forum server so many forums have limits on picture size. Second, like you, I may want to post the same picture in more than one place. Finally, you lose control of the picture.

Your concern for my wellbeing is warmly appreciated, but your concerns are not concerns for me at all:

1. The moderator and primary caretaker of this forum ( @cutman ) told me to do direct posting of pictures. Therefore, if he isn't worried about it, then I'm not worried about it. And, the moderator of the other forum also told me to direct post pictures. In fact, he said, "...if we ever run out of room, I will just get more...."

2. I'm now direct posting at two places, and it is becoming easier each day. At times it is better than the other way.

3. I'm laughing out loud at your remarks about losing "control of the picture." I just downloaded one of your pictures to see if I could do it. Yes, I'm now in control of one of your pictures. You have lost control Jack....

 

[yoderjac]

Your concern for my wellbeing is warmly appreciated, but your concerns are not concerns for me at all:

1. The moderator and primary caretaker of this forum ( @cutman ) told me to do direct posting of pictures. Therefore, if he isn't worried about it, then I'm not worried about it. And, the moderator of the other forum also told me to direct post pictures. In fact, he said, "...if we ever run out of room, I will just get more...."

2. I'm now direct posting at two places, and it is becoming easier each day. At times it is better than the other way.

3. I'm laughing out loud at your remarks about losing "control of the picture." I just downloaded one of your pictures to see if I could do it. Yes, I'm now in control of one of your pictures. You have lost control Jack....

First, I wasn't expressing any concern. I was just relating my similar experience. In terms of losing control of pictures, I was not meaning that others could not download them. If I was concerned about that I wouldn't post them in the first place. I was simply saying that if something like imgr or photoshop goes belly up, I still have my pictures organized as I want with valid links.

Generally, most of my posts are not directed at an individual just because I reply to one of their posts. I often reply to post of guys who I'm sure already know better than I do about what I'm posting. My posts are often intended to provide that information for the many who read forums, are often less experienced, and rarely if ever post.

There are some places where I also find it easier to post directly, but in most cases I prefer to post the link.

 

[Native Hunter]

Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima)

The next oak I want to talk about is the Sawtooth. It wasn't originally in my plans to add sawtooths to my tree planting, but that changed one day when I purchased what was supposed to be seedling chestnut trees from a guy who I was buying from back then. I was only giving him 70 cents per tree, and I had asked him to get me 15 chestnut seedlings along with some other trees. When he delivered the trees that day, I knew from looking at the leaves and bark that they were actually sawtooths. Since he was a good friend and a good tree supplier, I took the trees and planted them.

That decision turned out to be a good one. The trees grew fast and in just a few years started dropping lots of nuts that deer relished - and much to my surprise, the nuts were mostly falling late October into early November rather than in September like I had read on the Internet. I went from not being interested in sawtooths to praising them for being an excellent addition to my overall habitat plan. Just in recent days I have set in my blind and watched a multitude of deer, including a 5 year old buck, eating the nuts in daylight.

Sawtooth is not a native oak, and this turns off a lot of people. I understand that sentiment, but based on my observations, I'm not worried about it displacing native oaks to any significant degree, and it certainly doesn't appear to be invasive. Below are some of my thoughts:

* Sawtooth is a more reliable producer than most other native oaks. I have never seen a complete failure in mast production, and most years are good to great.

* The leaves tend to hang on all winter (Marcescence). If lower limbs are left intact, they can be a great screening tree.

* Due to the rapid growth, they have the reputation of being more prone to wind damage that other oaks. I suspect that this is true, but so far mine have endured some severe storms, and I haven't had a single issue.


The first four photos below show two of my bigger trees but not the biggest. These pictures were taken a couple of days ago, and you can see that there were still acorns on the ground.








The last two photos below show a young sawtooth that I grew from an acorn. Note the distinctive bark.





All in all, I think sawtooth is an excellent addition to most habitat plans. Mine drop right with white oaks, and in years when white oak acorns are scarce, sawtooth is like gold. Every deer in the area will be on them until they are gone.

PS- When I taste a sawtooth acorn, the tannin levels are somewhat more than white oak acorns - just as I expected.

 

[mattpatt]

Sawtooths certainly have their critics but I’m not one. We planted several trees 8-9 years ago and they have been producing steady now for the last few years. The wildlife (deer, pigs, etc) love them and we have seen no evidence that they are invasive. Pretty hard to be when all the acorns are eaten. I have a hard time finding enough for myself as I like to grow a few seedlings every year.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Native Hunter]

Sawtooths certainly have their critics but I’m not one. We planted several trees 8-9 years ago and they have been producing steady now for the last few years. The wildlife (deer, pigs, etc) love them and we have seen no evidence that they are invasive. Pretty hard to be when all the acorns are eaten. I have a hard time finding enough for myself as I like to grow a few seedlings every year.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It sounds like our experience with sawtooth is much the same Matt. I picked up a few nuts this year, but like you said - most had already been eaten.

 

[cutman]

I love sawtooths (sawteeth?) as well. Deer don’t care if they are native or not. I’ve watched deer literally race out of the woods in broad daylight to get the acorns.

 

[Native Hunter]

I love sawtooths (sawteeth?) as well. Deer don’t care if they are native or not. I’ve watched deer literally race out of the woods in broad daylight to get the acorns.

Sounds like they are getting the attention of deer all the way from Texas to Kentucky and on to South Carolina. Good observations cutman. Very similar to what I see. About 3 years ago I planted a few more on another area of my place. The goal was to get some deer traffic between the two locations, which would lead them right by my favorite spot to hunt.

 

[TX-Aggie]

We have considered sawtooths many times, but we have an abundance of chinquapin oaks and dwarf chinquapin oaks on the property, in addition started around 50 concordia oaks and 50 Ozark Chinquapin nuts. The turkeys and deer fight each other over the dwarf chinquapins, and if the chinquapin oaks are falling during season, you almost have to be near them or you won't see a thing. The success of those most years along with the red oaks, we have currently decided to stay away from the sawtooth variety (for now).

 

[Native Hunter]

We have considered sawtooths many times, but we have an abundance of chinquapin oaks and dwarf chinquapin oaks on the property, in addition started around 50 concordia oaks and 50 Ozark Chinquapin nuts. The turkeys and deer fight each other over the dwarf chinquapins, and if the chinquapin oaks are falling during season, you almost have to be near them or you won't see a thing. The success of those most years along with the red oaks, we have currently decided to stay away from the sawtooth variety (for now).

That makes a lot of sense. If what you have works that well, it might be wise to look at other things besides another type of oak. What I find so appealing about sawtooths in my area is the reliability. We have lots of years that some varieties of native oaks don't do a lot, but sawtooths seem to produce well nearly every year. A friend of mine put it this way - "...the reason they are so good is not because the acorns are better, it's because they are there..."

 

[Native Hunter]

Sawtooth acorns on the ground on November 7. I guess Abraham Lincoln was wrong.