Recreating a Deer Woods

[MarkDarvin]

Holy crap Chainsaw. That is a hell of a property. I had missed this up until now.

A few pages back I saw your posts about firewood. Have you considered switching to propane now and banking the firewood until later? I can't imagine cheap propane is here to stay, but that firewood is only worth your time plus propane replacement value. And with cheap propane, on econ alone, the propane may be a better value now.

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, what's today's storm supposed to bring up your way? They're forecasting 18" for us.

 

[Chainsaw]

Dave, what's today's storm supposed to bring up your way? They're forecasting 18" for us.

Yikes, 18 inches, how much do you have on the ground before this coming 18?

The forecast here is for one to three inches but it is supposed to snow for like twelve hours so I guess it is expected to be snowing very lightly. It's been snowing all morning and there isn't even an inch yet.

 

[Chummer]

Don't fret buddy;many of your deer are here. I was in the sun room tonight at dusk and suddenly there was a rush of deer almost like a stampede. I counted almost thirty running full bore at me. Ten yards or less away they veered left and right and just missed running thru my wall of windows. They were so close I imagined the vibration from their bounds and felt the pressure they felt as they veered away at the last minute. For that thrilling encounter I vow to keep dropping trees until snow melt to help keep them alive so they can return to your property.

I would like to learn more about where my deer go. After three winters now I know 100% leave the new property. I guess I would need to collar one to know for sure. At camp many stay and in a "mild winter" I think I pick up some. The river and hemlocks are a draw all winter. I will start running cameras this year at the new property. I will be interested to see if the same deer come back every year or if the strongest/biggest claim it because it is the best habitat around. I know at camp I will have the same bucks from 1.5 until they get shot. New bucks show up for the rut but for what ever reason they don't stay. I am surprised they don't because I have the only plots around. I would have thought I would be getting more/new big bucks every and the little guys would get pushed out. Of coarse the buck I shot this year showed up in July, so maybe it is happening and because the deer numbers are so low it isn't as visible as it would be with more deer.

 

[Elkaddict]

8" as of yesterday. Still able get on top of the mountain on an ATV yesterday. Might be a while now. Forecast doesn't show much snow melting weather anytime soon. Deer were still hitting rutabagas hard and still have quite a bit corn left. Good news is the browse is in good shape so we should be fine.

 

[Chainsaw]

Holy crap Chainsaw. That is a hell of a property. I had missed this up until now.

A few pages back I saw your posts about firewood. Have you considered switching to propane now and banking the firewood until later? I can't imagine cheap propane is here to stay, but that firewood is only worth your time plus propane replacement value. And with cheap propane, on econ alone, the propane may be a better value now.

Thank you Mark; its a "hell of a property" has some cool humor in it as we call the property "Beulah Land". The property is enjoyed by us every single day one way or another. We have thought about switching to propane and may need to someday as handling firewood gets physically more demanding each year. In addition the stove must be fed everyday so it ties us down as well. Still for now we've opted to stay with the wood for at least this year and next with possibly hooking up a propane furnace this coming summer as an alternate heat source that could be used when we wanted.

We heat our barn (the one we stay in for the winter); it and the attached sun room combined is 3,712 sq.ft.with 3/4 of it being twelve ft. ceilings. We enjoy not having to wear lined pants and heavy flannel in the barn so we are accustomed to a very warm interior. Though the propane is so cheap I'm guessing it could cost over $3,000 out of pocket to heat it with propane. Does that sound like a reasonable guess for heating that amount of space in a zone 4 type winter?

There is one other value to the firewood if my wife and I can continue to avoid any firewood handling accidents; It forces healthy exercise on us and gives us a great deal of pleasure seeing the wood pile outside all ready for minus twenty-five or whatever the winter brings. A full propane tank just doesn't make me feel that way even though it may very well be a better value at the moment.
I enjoy your ever changing avatars!

 

[dogdoc]

Just got caught up on the last 4 pages. Always enjoy your updates and love of your land. The number of wild apples is simply amazing.
Keep up the great work. Spring will be here soon.
Todd

 

[MarkDarvin]

Depends how well insulated it is, among other variables. New homes that are primary propane don't use near as much as their older counterparts of the same size.

 

[Chainsaw]

The barn is heavily insulated MarkD probably more than most homes. Still it is a large area to heat.

Having just read the book 'Botany of Desire" by Michael Poulan, I am even more resolved to focus entirely on releasing the great old wild apple trees on this property versus planting orchard bred trees. Utilizing the huge gene pools the great old trees will be selectively crossed to one another and the resultant seeds will be planted to create yet more unknown varieties with the characteristics that are serving the deer here so well. Thank you Shedder for mentioning the book. Although it was not a technical apple book it strengthened my knowledge, understanding and appreciation for the wild apple tree.

Watching deer after deer stop at a particular apple tree daily yet still holding apples as of today Feb. 17 (pictured on page three of this thread as it looked Jan. 7) has reinforced for me that apples that do not fall until February are among those that may have other characteristics that serve the deer well here, with this trees major strength being providing a deer preferred food during the late winter when food preferred or not is otherwise very scarce here. The tree is daily one of the very first stops after bedding by many different deer;Sometimes in their enthusiasm the younger deer will break away from the lead deer and sprint the last 100 yards to the tree. Here is what that same tree is still holding as of today(had a little snow on the lens).



Curious as to what flavor they possibly could have after hanging in the cold all winter I picked ten of the apples;they had lost some of their original weight with the average apple picked now weighing only two ounces. After squeezing the juice out of them and running the juice thru a coffee filter the taste test was ready. The juice from all ten apples filled only a small glass. A small baby sip at first was pure delight, to die for as some say! The rest of glass did not disappoint;it was a myriad of flavors I had never experienced; Yikes was it ever special!!! It left me wanting-NO, LONGING for more but alas the blowing snow and the darkness and the cold outside and the thought of the long snowshoe trek back to the tree I settled opening a "good" bottle of Merlot. The Merlot fell way short in comparison.

So that apple tree will make the cut as a special tree that serves the deer well on this property. It will be one of my breeder trees and will be labeled with the number 1, the first tree of a dozen or so to be chosen to begin the wild apple tree crossing project. The fabulous taste of the winter-aged juice is not a deciding factor but we won't hold that against it either.

Here right now (8 a.m.) these three deer are bedded within sight of apple tree "number 1". They appear to be waiting for the sun to warm up their world before they venture over to their first stop of the day. It is 16 degrees out which isn't that cold for here but it seems it because it has been mostly in the twenties or even warmer lately.



Notice how their faces look so fat;it looks like they turned their fur out to hold maximum warmth. Though they are only thirty-fiveish yards away they allowed me a few photos and stayed after I left. Late in the winter like now the deer here often get less concerned about our intrusions than normal.

 

[Osceola]

We do not prune our wild apple trees. Browse provided by the lower branches may be as beneficial as the apples the trees provide.

Tell me more about your thinking on this, Chainsaw. I only have a dozen or so apple trees and I have been reluctant to prune them more out of fear of doing it wrong than anything else. With only a handful of trees on my property, do you still recommend not pruning?

 

[Chummer]

Those young deer are not running there out of enthusiasm. They want to get a couple bites before mom and aunt Jane get to the tree and kick them in the head.

 

[Chainsaw]

Tell me more about your thinking on this, Chainsaw. I only have a dozen or so apple trees and I have been reluctant to prune them more out of fear of doing it wrong than anything else. With only a handful of trees on my property, do you still recommend not pruning?

Good questions Osceola, I'll treat your post as two separate questions with first what's my thinking on pruning wild apple trees on this property and second if I had only twelve trees would I prune. So for the first question with the sheer number of unreleased trees here it makes no sense for me to prune; Every tree I take the time to prune could result in yet another apple tree dying because it didn't get released. With the amount of apples the property produces it is hard to put apple production anywhere but first in priority here. Even at the low, low number of fifty pounds per released tree we are talking 50 lbs. x 2,000 trees(rounded down) or 100,000 lbs of apples. And its possible that 100 pounds per tree may even be a conservative estimate! Either way that's a lot of "free food"; in fact its almost almost unimaginable.

And then there is the browse the apple trees produce;I have no idea how much browse weight except that it is the most preferred browse tree on this property. Trees in nature are self pruning--grow at the wrong angle and the branch breaks off. This gives the remainder of the tree more sun and a living hinge cut which produces browse for one to three years. Grow to close to another branch and eventually one branch dies. So the trees are pruning themselves without my intervention. Have too many apple and the tree starts dropping extra in June which the deer flock to. And then the deer are constantly nibbling and pruning our trees at least for the part that is five feet high and lower.

My experience in pruning wild apple trees has mostly been negative. When I trimmed branches throughout the tree to let light in, the result was hundreds of sucker branches. Twenty years ago when I cut the leader to keep the tree short as I saw in the orchards, some of the trees never came back to producing what they once were. Come to find out those orchard trees were cut that way to make picking easier. I really had gotten that one all wrong. When pruning branches to achieve a Y branch instead of a 90 degree branch from the trunk I would be looking at cutting a three to four inch branch that was already producing 50 lbs. of apples on its own. Sure it would eventually break if left unpruned but meanwhile it produced fifty lbs a year before it did break off.

I have zero idea how many if any more lbs of apples could be produced from a properly pruned wild apple tree. No doubt as in orchard trees the apples would be "better" shaped and larger and more uniform in a pruned tree but would the total apple weight be higher on the pruned tree? Would the pruned tree create more browse than the unpruned tree?

In summary here releasing the apple trees mostly results in saving the apple tree and a huge increase in both browse and apples. Yes one out of hundreds do blow over once released so not really an issue. Releasing apple trees is the biggest habitat payback we have on the property.

Now for the question if I only had twelve apple trees on the whole property; I'll have to address that one tomorrow. And last thought if I had found twelve wild apple trees on the property I'd be out there during blossom time walking every inch of the property; No doubt if I hadn't already done that during a previous blossom time another twelve apple trees would show up.

 

[Chummer]

I have learned if you are pruning wild trees you have to do it the summer. If not, like you said the water sprouts go crazy. I am very happy with how all my wild trees look now. However, because I initially pruned every thing in the spring I then had to deal with hundreds of water sprouts. If you cut one four would grow back. It took me a couple years to learn if you cut them in the summer they don't grow back. I still have 1 tree left that is all water sprouts from ill timed pruning. It is my largest tree so it is on the to do list for this summer to clean that tree up. Howeve, if I had your number of trees I would not be pruning much. Maybe some stand alone trees in the open, but that would be it. I wish I had before and after pics of my trees because it made a huge difference. Some of these trees had been covered over for years and were in rough shape. They have all rebounded rapidly to produce lots of apples, when frost permits.

 

[Chainsaw]

Those young deer are not running there out of enthusiasm. They want to get a couple bites before mom and aunt Jane get to the tree and kick them in the head.

Reality is always crueler than ideal. The young deer that ran to the apple tree actually got chased off by the big buck that was already there. We don't tolerate that kind of selfish behavior though. We will deal with him in November; Likely as you say, had the buck not been there Mom and her sister would have beat the young one there or at least pushed her aside until they were had had their fill of apples. I like to not notice that stuff but it is what really happened.

A Disney world it is not at least not here in the winter! Its dog eat Dog.

 

[Chummer]

When we had a lot of deer and my FIL would put corn out, it was exactly that. The fawns would race in and eat as fast as they could. The moms would walk in rear up and put a hoof upside their kids head. The fawns would back up and wait, hoping to get any left over kernels. It was interesting to watch the pecking order of whom ate first.

 

[Triple C]

Such a great thread Chainsaw. The pic of the bedded deer could be a post card.

 

[buckhunter10]

continue to love the updates buddy!

 

[Chainsaw]

Thanks for the pruning tip about water sprouts Chummer; I had not figured that out myself. A bunch more words on releasing apple trees and that is it is different than releasing timber trees. In releasing timber trees the goal is to get the tree to get its needed share of sun, ground nutrients and air so it can continue to grow taller and taller and wider of course. Branching up and down the trunk of a timber tree is not desired and is a big dollar negative for the timber trees. Thus simply opening up the crown of the tree on the three sun sides is often all that is done for a timber tree in releasing it. And an aside as Chummer said take before pictures; I wish I had taken more. A small piece of wood hung around each tree with its own number painted on it is a good way to keep track of the apple tree and which pictures go with it.

String was used here to hold the number sign to this unreleased apple tree;the string rotted off and was replaced with a loose wire.

In releasing apple trees I prefer to give the tree as much open space around it so it has 360 degrees open and as much of the days sun as possible. So if a fifteen ft. high apple tree is growing in a forest with the forest trees at 30 ft. then simply cutting all trees around the apple tree that are within ten feet will not sufficiently open that apple tree up to the sun. If I had only a one or two dozen apple trees I would be sure to cut whatever it would take to get them full all day sun. If a tree can not be dropped safely or it would likely damage the apple tree upon falling then it simply gets a double cut around the trunk (girdled) going in one to 1 1/2 inches. (EDIT-I can remember some large trees that Dad and I had girdled twenty-five years ago. We had cut too deep and the trees fell over whole in a good wind and damaged some of the apple trees we had been trying to release. So over cutting depth wise when girdling should be avoided) The ringed trees will die and usually deteriorate so slowly that minimal damage occurs to the apple tree from falling branches and such. Additionally the damage from falling dead tree parts is often spread out time wise so the apple tree usually recovers. Note I wouldn't pitch any tents around those girdled trees of course.

It is important to keep the apple tree released/free from competing with other trees for sun, nutrients, water and air space. Trunk sprouts and new growth will spring up everywhere very quickly. Killing everything that grows around it would seem to fit that bill except bare dirt creates erosion and water run off which prevents water from soaking into the ground around the apple tree. The tree of course will not flourish without adequate water. It is important in releasing the tree to not end up with bare dirt around the tree. When this happens or if the trees are to be left in a food plot then I fall plant clover and rye around the apple trees. Extra clover seed is put down around in the tree areas as the areas are usually small as compared to doing acres of food plot. Mowing above the clover if dry in Mid July cuts any brush down and keeps the brush from reseeding;many brush species will disappear with a couple of years of such mowing. Of course if the ground is wet the clover can be mowed earlier.

Clover of course creates nitrogen which maybe could encourage more root or trunk sprouting but I have not seen that and some of that would be okay for me anyhow but maybe not for everyone. The main purpose of the clover and the rye and all the undisturbed top soil under it is to help capture the rain water and hold it so it can soak into the ground.

If the ground sprouts wild stuff right away that would be OK too until that eventually becomes competition to the apple tree. With a dozen trees one can possibly have time to just leave all cut trees alive and just trim them back every few years as needed to keep them from competing with the apple trees. Just know that the job is never completed;it can be put off for a while but totally ignoring a apple tree after releasing it results in it eventually being in heavy competition with the new growth around it.

Its a great weather break day today so I'm off to the woods to see what is happening everywhere.

 

[Chainsaw]

Thanks TripleC and Buckhunter, I get a kick out of taking the pictures and documenting things as they go along.
Five days ago I noticed this red pine struggling but at least untouched by the deer as of then.


Today shows the little red pine has been reset to starting over again by the deer to regrow some food for next winter. With the deer again eating the red pines it is a pretty good indication that the property is at maximum it can carry. We'll see how many stay on the property, do a browse survey in the spring and then make our harvest plan for 2017. It's hard to believe the population has bounced back so quickly on this property but what they eat tells it all about the population to food ratio.

Looking at the remains of the little red pine, there is no denying that reachable winter food is running low.

The rye/Triticale/barley field(not sure which of the three is right there in the picture but will find out) continues to feed the deer for many hours each day. This pic from today Feb 18. The other end of the field has less but a good bunch of deer in it as well when this picture was taken. Tomorrow during the feeding lull time I have planned a walk to check the sign in the four other planted fields and comparing it to this field. That will give me a good idea of how many deer all of the planted fields are supporting as of right now.

EDIT--Regarding the pic above the farmer has told me that definitely this field has only Triticale planted in it. It was planted early enough that it had 10 to 14 inches of growth before winter.
And finally I wanted to include this pic of the last deer to get moving yesterday. This deer stayed in its bed an hour later than the others.


It is very exciting to see the deer so fat and healthy for this time of year.

 

[Chummer]

Your snow will be gone this week!