Recreating a Deer Woods

[Chainsaw]

FL Plotter, My wife uses the 243. In the woods where shooting is close she shoots for the top of the shoulder-no blood trail. They fall and die on the spot. In fields where shots can be longer she shoots for behind the shoulder but not high. Her deer run but do bleed and fall 30 to 60 yards.
And no I did not get the really big one. Took a nice ten point that dressed 190 LBS likely a 4 1/2 and wife took a nice nine point that is likely a 4 1/2 also-didn't weigh hers-shot about one hour before dark so we are both done hunting bucks for the year. I use the 7 MM. My results are really not much different than the wife's 243. Our woods shots are really close like easy bow range so it is easily doable to put the bullet in just right.

Your 270 is probably a lot better overall than the 243. I had bought the 243 for my wife and put a muzzle brake on it(overkill) to be sure that she wouldn't ever flinch due to the kick. It is a minimum gun for large bucks but because we really pick our shots it has proven to work really flawlessly. When shooting behind the shoulder though 243 or whatever caliber, aiming a little lower versus higher I think results in a better blood trail. Note; we do not ever even think of shooting running or fast walking deer; we just never learned it.

How about you? Are still hunting bucks?

 

[FL Plotter]

Shot placement is key with any rifle, but after a couple of bad experiences with a 243, I switched to 270. My son knocked a doe down at 65 yds with the 243. It got back up. I grabbed the rifle and missed it running. Then I nailed her at 85 yards when she stopped and dropped her. A minute later, she got back up, and we never found her...no blood. I switched him to a 20g slug gun after that!.

I got a doe last weekend during our 4 day Thanksgiving gun season. It's Xbow and Muzzie for the next 2 weeks, then it's gun again in Mid-December until February. I've got my eye on a decent 8 that's on our lease but bucks don't start moving good until January with our prime rut being Feb 7th. I've also got a nice 8 on my 20 acres, but I'd rather not shoot "my" deer!

 

[OkieKubota]

The .243 is a great deer caliber. Put it in the boiler and it’s not getting away...my wife has never lost a deer with hers and she has killed some big bodied deer...

 

[Chainsaw]

FL, Wife Anne uses the plain old core-lokts and that all. As Okie said "my wife has never lost a deer with hers and she has killed some big bodied deer..." If your son isn't able to drop them with the 243 and he is using a 100GR core-lokt or something better whatever that might be then have him start hunting with only one bullet for a while. He likely will soon be dropping them on the spot. Having him master the 243 before moving on to bigger guns will give him a great foundation for a life of better shooting.
Congrats on your Thanksgiving doe. I didn't realize your hunting seasons were that long, wow a February rut. That is a very foreign concept to us. Good luck on the eight point and maybe by then an even bigger one will come onto the scene.

 

[farmhunter]

I hunt with a .270 - elk to deer its a great round! But its overkill for most whitetail in my opinion. Generally I'm OK with that I'd rather err on that side of things. I like to hunt with other guns at times too - In the past I have hunted with a .243 with good results, I use a single shot Thompson on and off - its a great gun. My son does as well, and several other friends of mine do as well. They love the .243 and for good reason - its great on deer size game, its very accurate. I think a lot of us will draw the line somewhere when it comes to caliber. I personally don't like the .223 for deer - but I've known people that love it! I also don't care for .357 pistol for deer either - but I do want to take one sometime with my open sight s&w, if i got just the right shot opportunity.

 

[Mrs. Kubota]

The .243 is a great deer caliber. Put it in the boiler and it’s not getting away...my wife has never lost a deer with hers and she has killed some big bodied deer...

It’s a keeper!

 

[Chainsaw]

That is neat Farmhunter,

It’s a keeper!

And so are you a keeper Mrs. Okie, and my wife Anne and all of the other great women that hunt are as well as those that support us that do.

Farmhunter that's neat, Anne and I also hunt with the Thompson center. Our two rifles are except for the caliber exactly the same so we could use each others rifle and not notice the difference except when the shot goes off. The 7 MM has way more wallop of course than the 243 that Anne uses. However there has not been a difference in how quickly they each kill the deer regardless of the deer's weight. Each of us are extra picky about the shots we take though so that is a factor. Neither of us are great shooters but we have learned to pick great shots.

On another thrilling tale - The scene below shows a path meandering through a wild apple grove and then entering into a one acre fenced in planted apple orchard. The trees planted many years ago are now large enough that the deer browsing does not negatively affect them so the "gate" is left open. A dozen apple trees in the orchard were holding hundreds of apples each on Nov. 30. Today Dec 06. there are still many but a huge amount fell between Nov. 30 and now. Curious as to how many deer were using the orchard this late in the year, a camera was placed at the entry way Nov. 30 and checked today Dec. 6 during a noon time snowstorm.


The orchard is not hunted but a trail near it is used to sometimes to access the back half of the property so the deer do get spooked in the orchard area a few times during November. Camera pictures showed day and night activity with one nice old buck using it after dark-glad to know he was still around. There were many younger bucks though that visited it during the daytime like the one below. It will be interesting to see how long the apples keep giving and hanging and if the after dark bucks move to daylight visits once the snow gets deeper. Right now the snow is at about 7 inches and minimal breeding is still occurring.


During the period of 11/30 to 12/6 the camera tallied 945 pictures of deer entering and leaving the one acre orchard enclosure. The cam was set for three pics for each trigger with a one minute delay after the three pics so a few deer no doubt got in and out "unseen". Those numbers while not so huge do confirm what most of us "knew" already regarding that at least likely in the north or definitely in this area having late holding apples in the centers of one's property helps feed the deer and hold the deer which keeps them out of harms way during one of their most vulnerable two weeks of the year.

Other camera experiments on the property this year have shown of course that food plots as small as two acres enjoy a huge amount of deer activity just as orchards of an acre or more do also. The big BUT though as shown by the small amount of camera pulls so far this year is that food plots combined with orchards over plots or orchards singularly show an unbelievable multi-fold amount of day time deer activity by all deer, by both sexes, and by young and old.

Thus not surprisingly over the next two years there will be a major apple tree planting of a couple of hundred or more more late dropping apple tree seedlings added to food plot areas throughout the property and mostly on standard root stock for full size trees. Most will take ten years to fruit but what a sight it will be to see so many natural "motor cycle" like paths going from one orchard to the next. And the spring bloom will be even more special and spectacular than it already is; it will be as massive a garden as anywhere in the world maybe and rivaled by no other during May at least to a deer manager's eyes. Further greeted every September, October and November morning by the sweet intoxicating smell of fermenting apples is just plain pretty darn special and spectacular.

As a side note, it is interesting to note that even after dark many of the deer were very leery of the gate way camera, so much so that some elected not to pass it. Others scurried by it and of course some just ignored it. With a lot of cameras on the property one would think that the deer would be used to them by now but most are not.

 

[Mennoniteman]

That is neat Farmhunter,

And so are you a keeper Mrs. Okie, and my wife Anne and all of the other great women that hunt are as well as those that support us that do.

Farmhunter that's neat, Anne and I also hunt with the Thompson center. Our two rifles are except for the caliber exactly the same so we could use each others rifle and not notice the difference except when the shot goes off. The 7 MM has way more wallop of course than the 243 that Anne uses. However there has not been a difference in how quickly they each kill the deer regardless of the deer's weight. Each of us are extra picky about the shots we take though so that is a factor. Neither of us are great shooters but we have learned to pick great shots.

On another thrilling tale - The scene below shows a path meandering through a wild apple grove and then entering into a one acre fenced in planted apple orchard. The trees planted many years ago are now large enough that the deer browsing does not negatively affect them so the "gate" is left open. A dozen apple trees in the orchard were holding hundreds of apples each on Nov. 30. Today Dec 06. there are still many but a huge amount fell between Nov. 30 and now. Curious as to how many deer were using the orchard this late in the year, a camera was placed at the entry way Nov. 30 and checked today Dec. 6 during a noon time snowstorm.
View attachment 17716

The orchard is not hunted but a trail near it is used to sometimes to access the back half of the property so the deer do get spooked in the orchard area a few times during November. Camera pictures showed day and night activity with one nice old buck using it after dark-glad to know he was still around. There were many younger bucks though that visited it during the daytime like the one below. It will be interesting to see how long the apples keep giving and hanging and if the after dark bucks move to daylight visits once the snow gets deeper. Right now the snow is at about 7 inches and minimal breeding is still occurring.

View attachment 17717
During the period of 11/30 to 12/6 the camera tallied 945 pictures of deer entering and leaving the one acre orchard enclosure. The cam was set for three pics for each trigger with a one minute delay after the three pics so a few deer no doubt got in and out "unseen". Those numbers while not so huge do confirm what most of us "knew" already regarding that at least likely in the north or definitely in this area having late holding apples in the centers of one's property helps feed the deer and hold the deer which keeps them out of harms way during one of their most vulnerable two weeks of the year.

Other camera experiments on the property this year have shown of course that food plots as small as two acres enjoy a huge amount of deer activity just as orchards of an acre or more do also. The big BUT though as shown by the small amount of camera pulls so far this year is that food plots combined with orchards over plots or orchards singularly show an unbelievable multi-fold amount of day time deer activity by all deer, by both sexes, and by young and old.

Thus not surprisingly over the next two years there will be a major apple tree planting of a couple of hundred or more more late dropping apple tree seedlings added to food plot areas throughout the property and mostly on standard root stock for full size trees. Most will take ten years to fruit but what a sight it will be to see so many natural "motor cycle" like paths going from one orchard to the next. And the spring bloom will be even more special and spectacular than it already is; it will be as massive a garden as anywhere in the world maybe and rivaled by no other during May at least to a deer manager's eyes. Further greeted every September, October and November morning by the sweet intoxicating smell of fermenting apples is just plain pretty darn special and spectacular.

As a side note, it is interesting to note that even after dark many of the deer were very leery of the gate way camera, so much so that some elected not to pass it. Others scurried by it and of course some just ignored it. With a lot of cameras on the property one would think that the deer would be used to them by now but most are not.

The camera spooking issue is why we are going with "dark ops" cameras, the immature deer don't mind, but the mature bucks sure do, it tends to keep them from coming back to that spot.

 

[Triple C]

Dave - At the risk of overstating what I've said many times...I love this thread and I love your passion. Wishing you a Merry Christmas and good health in the coming year!

 

[Chainsaw]

The camera spooking issue is why we are going with "dark ops" cameras, the immature deer don't mind, but the mature bucks sure do, it tends to keep them from coming back to that spot.

I have only 4 dark ops cameras and they definitely have a night time advantage. During the daytime which is when I care about deer movement the most I'm not so sure the dark ops is better than any of the others.

I do like this about dark ops though,

Poachers don't notice them either. There was a second guy in another pic with this one. We figured they were searching for a wounded deer. Then a week later I was asked permission for someone to follow yet another wounded deer in the same area. I went with him but the deer was gut shot and stopped bleeding pretty quickly. I chose not to blindly search for it very much past where the trail ended. Asked him if he might have any idea as to who the guys in the pictures from 11/09 could be; the answer was no idea.

Fast forward yet another week and the dark ops picks this up
and guess who is following her and yes it looks like another gut shot.

Turned the pictures over to the local game warden to ticket whomever it was because no one has permission to go chasing wounded deer on the property without me. I've not yet turned any legitimate hunters down who wounded a deer and came and asked permission. Since this guy was wearing a face mask as he was in the Nov. 9 picture we didn't know who it was for sure. The warden then backtracked him in the snow to to his house. Hopefully this fills another hole in the bucket and saves a bunch of deer from the fate of dying a slow death from this guys poor and irresponsible shooting. Chalk one up for the Dark OPs. If I were just starting to purchase cameras I might be going with more dark ops because night time trespassers don't have a clue they have been captured with the Dark Ops. The word "might" is used because I don't have much experience with the Dark Ops to date.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I have only 4 dark ops cameras and they definitely have a night time advantage. During the daytime which is when I care about deer movement the most I'm not so sure the dark ops is better than any of the others.

I do like this about dark ops though,
View attachment 17718
Poachers don't notice them either. There was a second guy in another pic with this one. We figured they were searching for a wounded deer. Then a week later I was asked permission for someone to follow yet another wounded deer in the same area. I went with him but the deer was gut shot and stopped bleeding pretty quickly. I chose not to blindly search for it very much past where the trail ended. Asked him if he might have any idea as to who the guys in the pictures from 11/09 could be; the answer was no idea.

Fast forward yet another week and the dark ops picks this up
View attachment 17719 and guess who is following her and yes it looks like another gut shot.
View attachment 17720
Turned the pictures over to the local game warden to ticket whomever it was because no one has permission to go chasing wounded deer on the property without me. I've not yet turned any legitimate hunters down who wounded a deer and came and asked permission. Since this guy was wearing a face mask as he was in the Nov. 9 picture we didn't know who it was for sure. The warden then backtracked him in the snow to to his house. Hopefully this fills another hole in the bucket and saves a bunch of deer from the fate of dying a slow death from this guys poor and irresponsible shooting. Chalk one up for the Dark OPs. If I were just starting to purchase cameras I might be going with more dark ops because night time trespassers don't have a clue they have been captured with the Dark Ops. The word "might" is used because I don't have much experience with the Dark Ops to date.

Browning is my favorite game camera brand for a non cellular, I like the simplicity, the battery life, and the screen to use for aiming the camera. It amuses me that the reviews like to point out that the temperature readings on the Browning cameras are inaccurate. Accurate temp readings are at the very bottom of my list of things that I'm looking for in a game camera.

 

[George]

It were Dave that turned me on to the Brownies, I bought 6 of them, and other than a few pink pictures, they have been flawless. They seem to run for months when the battery life drops between 40-45%.


G

 

[OkieKubota]

I had 4 browning cams and they all started taking pink photos. I no longer use them...

 

[Chainsaw]

Browning is my favorite game camera brand for a non cellular, I like the simplicity, the battery life, and the screen to use for aiming the camera. It amuses me that the reviews like to point out that the temperature readings on the Browning cameras are inaccurate. Accurate temp readings are at the very bottom of my list of things that I'm looking for in a game camera.

I agree Mennoniteman. Inaccurate temp readings are not a game changer for me; I love the Brownings. However when looking at 60,000 pictures temperature if accurate can tell one a bit more about how the deer use the property. For example on days that the deer bed in our yard on the side hill I know that the snow will be sparkling like diamonds, it will be a sunny day and the temps will be 10 degrees or less. This is confirmed by daily observation over years. With accurate temperatures I'm sure that some other correlations as to when the deer are where during different temperatures would show themselves. No accurate temperatures are not a deal breaker but it would be a plus.

Okie, I guess I've been lucky, have not seen any pink pictures to date that I recall.

George, I have to credit Tap for being the catalyst to me finding Browning. Prior to Tap's thread I was convinced that only Reconyx was worth buying, the rest were junk. And I still think I was right when I arrived at that conclusion. However somewhere along the way Browning rose up and maybe others I don't have experience with. It was Swat1018 that shared with us that he had a bunch of Strike Force Brownings and they worked perfectly for him.The Strike Force Brownings on sale were less than $100 so I tried 10. Now thirty more Brownings later and the camera "HUNT" is as fun as the real hunt. They have taught me more about the deer movements on this property during various seasons than I ever would have imagined. I can't wait to pull all of the cameras in January to see what they have captured. Cards for some that are in our path have been pulled on and off but the majority of cameras have not been checked since they were put out in October.

 

[FL Plotter]

FL, Wife Anne uses the plain old core-lokts and that all. As Okie said "my wife has never lost a deer with hers and she has killed some big bodied deer..." If your son isn't able to drop them with the 243 and he is using a 100GR core-lokt or something better whatever that might be then have him start hunting with only one bullet for a while. He likely will soon be dropping them on the spot. Having him master the 243 before moving on to bigger guns will give him a great foundation for a life of better shooting.
Congrats on your Thanksgiving doe. I didn't realize your hunting seasons were that long, wow a February rut. That is a very foreign concept to us. Good luck on the eight point and maybe by then an even bigger one will come onto the scene.

I use nothing but CoreLokts. Simple effective bullet! My son is now in college in PA....I'll send him his 243 if he ever wants it, but it won't be used again in Florida except to ring the gongs.

Our season is ridiculously long. You can hunt with some sort of weapon from 15 Oct to the end of February. Our bag limits are pretty dumb too at 2 bucks per day, something that nobody accomplishes with regularity -- we don't have that many deer. This year...FINALLY...it is required in Florida to record your deer via smart phone app or call-in before you move it if you have cell coverage. The season bag limit has been changed to 3 bucks, 2 does...total. Will be interesting to see what the deer harvest is this year in actual numbers, not extrapolated metrics from sporadic phone and mail surveys.

Our main rut is February 7th, but our pre-rut is Jan 7th, so the bucks start breaking up bachelor groups then. Most fawns have lost spots, but an occasional March bred doe will still have a spotted fawn in January. I can usually get on a target buck in January, but I have had to hunt until mid-February to get one. I'll try to get another doe this weekend...then it's buck hunting. Of course, I won't pass a shot at a coyote, bobcat, or pig should one happen by.

Too bad poachers and "spray and pray" hunters don't get what they truly deserve.

 

[Chainsaw]

Tiny steps but the great late dropping apple tree planting push is underway. Today I planted in the ground 600 seeds from our special late holding apple tree dubbed the Turning Point Tree. The very best of the seedlings if they germinate and survive will be used for root stock to graft scions from the Turning Point Tree and some seedlings will be used to grow out more wild trees figuring a percentage of the seedling trees will mirror the parent tree and drop late. Since the majority of "native" trees here thru natural selection are pretty much all extremely cold hardy, appear to have some level of fire blight resistance and definitely show Cedar Apple Rust resistance than many of the offspring may have a good chance to do the same. Further since we prefer full sized trees over dwarf trees the wild seedlings from our special Turning Point tree may ( a big may) meet our root stock needs better than bought state of the art root stock.

With daylilies I always bought the very latest and greatest (state of the art) genetics but the best offspring came from the old reliable northern hybridized plants that grew exceedingly well in this garden and fancy names and backgrounds be dammed. Daylilies from different areas of the country did not exhibit all of the qualities they apparently did where they were hybridized (developed). Likewise daylilies hybridized in the north didn't always show their best qualities when transplanted to more southern areas or generally when planted in more than one or two weather zones out of their area. Additionally different hybridizers made crosses based on different desired outcomes. I'm surmising that apples can be the same. As a deer hunter growing apples I actually prefer a standard size tree, a longer bloom time and root/stump sprouting and understand that the "best" most modern genetics generally have opposite those preferences.However always one to hedge my bets I'm ordering some of the state of the art root stocks as well as many already professionally grafted plants on said root stocks as part of this project.

Further tomorrow 63 additional apple seeds from the Turning Point Tree will be planted in two jugs and tossed outside in the snowbank to be created in tomorrows snowstorm. And hopefully they will all germinate on the same day or week and make nice seedlings. Another 663 apple seeds from the Turning Point tree will be jug planted in January and tossed out in to the then accumulated snowbanks.We are trying to cover all of the bases. Tiny steps but planting in the ground today was so cold.

The rivers were swollen with melting snow and ice and filling the pond(a harbor to Lake Ontario) with very frigid water and large icebergs which somewhat jammed the currents and created giant ice dams. The howling, almost screaming incessant winds coming across 180 miles of uninterrupted lake surface were blowing against the incoming river currents and breaking up the lakeside pond ice. The resultant icy wind gusts at my "nursery" gardens on the waters edge was so, soooo cold. Could not wear gloves working with those tiny apple seeds. Hands hurt so bad-had to actually sit in the car with the heat on to get the blood flowing again at the halfway mark. No one drove by and caught me in my planting madness although it wouldn't have mattered, some have come to expect to see me in the gardens even when most have already migrated to Florida. So yes a very tiny step but boy it was a huge, no a VERY huge effort. But it is DONE and the big brass ring is one step closer.

Edit--Please keep in mind that I'm not a knowledgeable apple tree grower so my ideas may be all or partly off or even mostly wrong.

 

[Chainsaw]

Here it is February already and preparations continue for the big apple tree planting adventure. The relatively few late holding apple trees enjoyed good deer activity thru December and into January but only one tree continues to feed deer every single day so far. Pictures to follow over the next two posts (a day apart) are from this past December thru February and they tell the story better than words can. First from known "late holding" varieties planted fifteen to twenty years ago.







At this point this group of late hanging trees is still visited on and off each day but the trees are down to only a handful of apples each. These are the best of the late hanging known varieties of late hanging apples available to me that are disease resistant and cold hardy to the temperatures here. A hundred or so of these trees would really help get the deer thru hunting season but wouldn't be of that much help to get the deer thru the months of Feb.-March. In a day or two will post pictures of the wild tree that I'm betting on.

 

[swat1018]

Have you tried grafting that tree to other roots on the farm?

 

[Chainsaw]

Have you tried grafting that tree to other roots on the farm?

No, no grafting has been attempted here yet. Up to this date with the exception of planting those trees and a few others all efforts related to apple trees has revolved around releasing the wild trees that were already growing here. The tree in the post #837 pictures is in a stand of 14 trees of probably five different named varieties that all held their apples thru December. By the time the trees were ten years old or so any and all notes as to what was what had been thrown out. We will be learning grafting this year and a few grafts will be made using each of those trees.

 

[THE LLC]

New York is a beautiful place but it’s got to suck to not see the ground for half the year.