Recreating a Deer Woods

[Chainsaw]

Jeremy, Maple River Farms called to answer the question of MG suitability down to minus 35 degrees. His response was on open bare ground it is good to minus 10 degrees. He plants it where the temperature hits minus 35 degrees but because there is reliable snow cover where he is the minus 35 degrees does not bother the MG. If no snow cover it would die at that temperature. So if the Hill has reliable snow cover during the minus 35 season then MG would be fine in your area; otherwise not.
The snow here is not as reliable as your area but so far it has grown vigorously here since planted five or so years ago.

 

[Chummer]

That should work since -35 usually means lots of snow. I still have over a foot of the crap left.

 

[farmhunter]

spring cant be far off guys - I think I'll be able to drive in this weekend (couldn't the last two weekends) - taking forever for the woods snowpack to break down this year it seems -

 

[Buckly]

Yep, snow stays forever in the woods. One year I remember it even stayed in some fields until the middle of May. I remember tilling right up to the snowpack to get spring plots in. Lol. NY. Can’t beat it. out West here this year has been little snow. It came and went many times so there’s no snowpack. There’s still not a lot of food but the deer can move around and not use much needed energy. A much bigger problem for you guys out East

 

[Chainsaw]

spring cant be far off guys - I think I'll be able to drive in this weekend (couldn't the last two weekends) - taking forever for the woods snowpack to break down this year it seems -

I carried my battery into the garden two days ago to change the fence charger battery--good thing I walked in because I sunk in a few inches walking across grass!! A vehicle would not have made it. A few more days though may change it here also.

I can remember years like that also Buckly. At Chummers it is pretty normal to have some snow into May but it is rare here. In fact they have the annual SNIRT (Snow-Dirt) run there on the Hill with ATV"s in the last quarter of April. At camp 5 miles away today there were still snow drifts up to 3 1/2 feet on the lawn yet. The ice went out on the pond a few days ago but the ice mound at the outside of the channel to the lake looks to be about fifteen feet high. It will likely all leave quickly now though. It doesn't look to be a problem this year; the Hill deer are still down in the flat lands here eating well in the winter wheat fields. It is normal to see up to a couple of hundred pretty often on an evening drive. Note that is way down from the population highs of ten years ago which is actually a good thing.

2018 Snirt run--

I guess the deer don't like to be there for the Snirt run.

 

[Chummer]

The snirt goes right by my property so I want the sign up before it happens. Brings in a lot of out of town traffic.

 

[Chainsaw]

That sounds like a great idea! Might be good to lag screw the sign into a tree. Unscrupulous acting buyers have been known to mess with for sale signs to reduce competitive bids.

 

[Chummer]

That sounds like a great idea! Might be good to lag screw the sign into a tree. Unscrupulous acting buyers have been known to mess with for sale signs to reduce competitive bids.

I had a nice 3’x5’ sign made. It will be mounted on plywood and hung on 4x4’s. I’m sure it will take a bullet or two. I bought the most sturdy one they had. It should hold up to almost anything.

 

[Chainsaw]

Some of you may remember that this past January, I had planned to setup a rather large meeting of area landowners in hopes of stirring up interest in forming a deer management co-op. After several one on one discussions with people of all walks in the game I decided to take a different approach and just start out walking rather than on a dead run. Starting slowly with just a few people involved will give us experience to get our act together and if needed will enable us to modify things more easily. A large area meeting at a later date will be scheduled when we all feel we are ready. So after pre-discussions on the subject, myself and three other hunters (the "we all" of us) representing just over one thousand contiguous acres met to agree on our mission, scope, guidelines, and cost and work sharing. We also accomplished our first "habitat project" together. We marked out the property line between two properties so that the properties can be posted and perimeter paths put in accurately. We also took a short tour on my property to view after logging regrowth and parts of my annual poplar/aspen hinging program that helps some deer get thru the winters. We observed and discussed the habitat conditions observed on each property.

We have much to accomplish; With most of the last thirty years "enjoying" huge populations of deer, and having minimal to no habitat or logging work done on about 1/2 of the 1,000 acres has left many acres over run with invasive plants in the under story where ever there was under story. A couple of hundred acres are closed canopy open woods and are producing very, very little browse and has little to no cover; not even invasive plants are growing. The browse count on my property came up with about 80% eaten and the other two properties came up with very close to 100% eaten; it was difficult on the other two properties to find a single deer-reachable bud or branch tip on any plants the deer usually eat.

We discussed various names for our co-op and one of the crew came up with "Big Sandy Deer Management Co-op". We all agreed on that one; it is a name unique and important in the history of this area. For history guys and the significance of "Big Sandy" to the area.-https://www.mywarof1812.com/battles/140529.html

We reached agreement on the basic guidelines of the co-op and limited them so as not to pre-empt our chances of ever expanding it. There were some additional guidelines that the four of us might agree to but that probably wouldn't fly with other groups so for now we left them out. Two of the major things in our guidelines we did agree on was;1. Encourage shooting of deer over 3 1/2 years old;3 1/2's get to walk. and 2. share information to help all co-op members set up their property to grow and hold older deer.

EDIT- OOPS! My error--the co-op guideline is to shoot 3 1/2 and up and not 4 1/2 and up as stated above.

On my property the over 3 1/2 should be no biggie if things continue as they are but on the other two properties it is a huge stretch and will require major habitat changes to make it possible. So that is the scoop for now. We are on track to create a successful deer management co-op but of course recreating deer woods that have been so over populated for so long and with some areas having had no habitat improvements or even maintenance for over thirty years it will be uphill all the way. And it will take lots of time.

 

[Chummer]

Sounds exciting Dave. I wonder on the shooting 4.5’s only. I have a hard time telling 3.5 from 4.5 unless I have pictures and history with the deer. I don’t know how you do it hunting the ground like you do and having milliseconds to identify the deer. I need the deer to pose on two sides, do a 360, and put its head behind a tree while I figure it out.

 

[Chainsaw]

You've got that right Jeremy. For some people it may easy to learn to tell the ages apart. For me it was a long learning curve with lots of mistakes. I am pretty comfortable about seeing the difference in a millisecond now though and if unsure in front of me, they just walk--no biggie.Hopefully those new to that in our co-op learn quicker than I did. All will be shown inventory pics of this past years 2 1/2's,3 1/2's and 4 1/2's so they might have an easier time recognizing them this year. I expect mistakes will be made and will not be bothered by it as long as the 2 1/2's aren't mistaken for 4 1/2.

A tip Dr. Kroll gave us decades ago was if the deer does not immediately look like it could fall over if it tilted its head, it s probably not a shooter. Of course that does not completely apply to us as we are shooting by age and body shape is certainly our main criteria in determining age. However the general idea stands, if it doesn't WOW you instantly it is likely not old enough to take.

 

[Mennoniteman]

That sounds like a great start to a good plan and I'd be on board if I was a landowner in the neighborhood. It does sound like you are a bit ahead of the others in habitat and deer populations, which brings some initial thoughts; It's going to be a question if those guys can get caught up to where you are at, and if you have set the initial bar so high that the others don't shoot any nice deer they could possibly get discouraged before things really get going and drop out or do their own thing behind the scenes. One way to overcome this would be to have a phased in set of standards, going with an eight point restriction for starters and stepping up to 4.5 year old in three years.

My observation has been that the #1 factor is that smaller landowners generally shoot smaller deer and larger landowners generally shoot bigger deer, with the size land that is being managed having a direct relation to the antler size limits that the hunter will use as a guideline when making that trigger decision, and the #2 factor in QDM is that younger hunters will shoot any legal deer, while older hunters are more apt to wait on an older one, and would see this as some of the difficulties to overcome in starting a co-op.
I've never been in an official deer management co-op, and I'm not sure exactly how they work? Is the agreement based 100% on a trust system, and if so, what do you do if you find out through the grapevine that some are a member in name only and are still doing their own thing?

 

[Chummer]

You've got that right Jeremy. For some people it may easy to learn to tell the ages apart. For me it was a long learning curve with lots of mistakes. I am pretty comfortable about seeing the difference in a millisecond now though and if unsure in front of me, they just walk--no biggie.Hopefully those new to that in our co-op learn quicker than I did. All will be shown inventory pics of this past years 2 1/2's,3 1/2's and 4 1/2's so they might have an easier time recognizing them this year. I expect mistakes will be made and will not be bothered by it as long as the 2 1/2's aren't mistaken for 4 1/2.

A tip Dr. Kroll gave us decades ago was if the deer does not immediately look like it could fall over if it tilted its head, it s probably not a shooter. Of course that does not completely apply to us as we are shooting by age and body shape is certainly our main criteria in determining age. However the general idea stands, if it does't WOW you instantly it is likely not old enough to take.

I guess it comes with practice. I have probably seen less than 10 4.5’s in my 25 years of hunting. A few more 3’s and I am dialed in on 2.5 vs 1.5. I have that one down good.

 

[Elkaddict]

Dave, I’m envious of your having good neighbors..... Congratulations on a good start.

 

[Chainsaw]

Thanks Guys. I am embarrassed to say but I've gotten myself confused over which age the co-op as a whole agreed to let walk. It was a long discussion with the youngest guys wanting to let 3 1/2's walk on one end and another group letting 1 1/2's walk on the other end and since the pictures showed so many 2 1/2's and older deer had made it through it wasn't much of a push to get the 1 1/2 party up to letting 2 1/2's walk. But now I'm doubting myself and am not sure if we left it at 3 1/2 or 4 1/2 as the minimum shooter. I gave my notes of our meeting to one of the guys who will be preparing our letterhead and the meeting was a few weeks ago now so I'll need to check with one of them after turkey hunting today. I was solidly remembering we did get to letting 3 1/2's walk but now I'm just not sure. The age structure has risen so suddenly that letting 3 1/2's walk has become normal for me so I may have misquoted our guidelines.. Good thing we are starting small and there are young guys to take it over.

As Mennoniteman said we didn't want to have the bar so high that it was unattainable so we did not push hard to change anyone's thinking too far from where they started. Anyhow will edit the post on age and correct later--don't want to post guidelines in error that's for sure.

 

[Chainsaw]

Raining out so came back in from turkey calling--got answers from my co-op partners and I was WRONG on the let 3 1/2 walk-it is shoot 3 1/2 and up for the beginning and review it's appropriateness as we gain experience. At least it won't be as difficult for everyone to age between 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 as it would have been for between 3 1/2 and 4 1/2.

Thanks Elk, yes I am lucky to have some good neighbors to share this new adventure with.There likely are one or two more that we could work with right now but we chose to keep it small and manageable to start with.

 

[Chainsaw]

Good questions and comments Mennoniteman! Regarding new first deer ever hunters any legally taken deer is ok; after that they follow the guidelines. We need to crop quite a few does this year which gives opportunity for young hunters or freezer fullers to take venison without killing young bucks. Regarding the will it be all done on trust, the answer is absolutely it will and I have full confidence in every member of the co-op that we have today. Still there will be mistakes made and we are encouraging everyone to include any such mistakes in our annual harvest report sheets so we can monitor our progress as a group or our lack of progress as a group whichever the case may be.

Like you I have not been in a deer co-op before let alone started one so we do have a lot of unknowns ahead of us. And one which you brought up is how we will handle the fake guys. We won't have that issue with this initial group but will likely run across it when we expand. Between now and then we will get our strategy to that agreed to. For now when we do expand we may not accept all people who want to join. IE; where it is evident that where "someone's own thing" would make for a member that sets the co-op backwards it would be counter productive to share the groups collective habitat knowledge with him/her as a member. We are fortunate that the Yates County deer co-op started many years ago is successful and generously shares their co-op experience with us so we can breeze thru at least some of the learning curve traps ahead of us.

Stepping up to 4 1/2 in a few years or a couple even is definitely attainable if all members improve their habitat and provide a safe environment for the young bucks to grow up in. And yes some areas in my property are eons ahead of the others and already are where they aspire to be deer age and day time activity wise. Still with work and elapsed time they can easily catch up and even exceed where my property might be in two to four years.

 

[Buckly]

normally your 1 1/2 year old bucks are your largest group. If a co-op can successfully pass on those in my opinion your way ahead , and the age brackets should take care of themselves. So if mistakes or intentional mistakes are made, and they will. It will have little effect. Of course your deer eat hickory nuts so......... Lol. There will be lots of people watching how this works out over time. I can’t imagine our area ever getting to a point of 4 year olds.

 

[Jon]

chainsaw, how did you approach the doe numbers and ultimately a desire to keep balance amongst your ratio with consideration of the carry capacity too?

 

[Chainsaw]

chainsaw, how did you approach the doe numbers and ultimately a desire to keep balance amongst your ratio with consideration of the carry capacity too?

Jon, to date we have always been able to get enough doe tags here when we needed them during peak deer populations. Currently though the general larger area is pretty low on deer although our property/area is very high in deer. Thus the likelihood of getting all the doe tags we need is unlikely as the DEC permit system manages on large areas (wildlife management areas) as does your area versus individual properties in determining doe tag allotments. So we will just shoot what we get tags for this year. At the same time we will each work to improve our habitat to make more winter food;spring, summer and early fall is easily taken care of by the acres and acres of Ag. fields in town. If we do not get a better browse left count next spring then I will do whatever possible to get more tags to the co-op properties to reduce the number of does at a faster rate.

As to the ratio of bucks to does, we really have little control over that. The bucks are evidently drawn to this property because of the cover, security and the excessive does which are evidently drawn in by the cover, food and secure environment currently happening. Maybe some day the ratio will be a priority but right now much of our properties are in such horrible shape that they are just screaming for habitat improvements. And one would think I am talking some foreign language whenever I bring it up in conversation with most other area hunters. Thus actual doe to buck ratios are not in our control at this point.

The forest conditions here bring to mind the old TV show of many years ago--"The Twilight Zone". It was where the unimaginable was always taking place and that is what is happening to most area properties here. They could soon become deer deserts and not as in good tasting snacks after a great meal but rather like a desert landscape void of deer.

Edit; Jon, regarding adding bucks there is one thing we have planned to do and that is to be selective in our doe harvesting. That is we will focus doe shooting on those does that have buck fawns with them in an effort to decrease the amount of yearling bucks that disperse from our properties. This has been mentioned somewhere in our previous posts but mentioned it here again since you may be new to forum.