Property Layout Question

[Matlax]

***NEW POST BELOW (AERIAL PHOTO) WITH CHANGE TO LAYOUT BASED ON ACQUIRING ADJACENT PARCEL - APPRECIATE FEEDBACK OR INPUT!***

Hi, I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the habitat management thread but I'm looking input from hunters. Been following the site and property tours for a while and finally joined.
I’m looking for feedback on what I’m thinking about doing with my land. I’m in upstate NY (near Syracuse). It’s 75 mostly flat acres with no significant food sources (farms) around. It’s a mix of pines, hemlocks, soft maples, cherry, and oaks. I’m finishing up a selective cut now where most of the property will be thinned out. Before the cut it was all mature (but not huge) trees with essentially no undergrowth due to the thick canopy. The logging was overdue. The deer trails passed mostly N-S through the property and were pretty unpredictable although I would find doe beds occasionally under pine trees in the snow. The solid black lines are existing logging roads and the dashed lines are where I expect the roads to be when they’re done. The blue is swampy land although it’s not quite as wide as shown on the map – I made it bigger to show where the tractor can’t go. The swampy part is thin due to all the overhead cover from the trees. The parking area and barn are on the right (EAST) side of the property. The red triangle is where the skidder got stuck even though it doesn’t look very soft – must be a spring of some kind in there. There are two “bridges” on the trails so I’m stuck using them. The winds are usually from the west but will sometimes come down from the NE. I’m not a huge fan of putting the north plot right on the border but I’m trying to buy that property and it’s really the only area I can put that large of a plot because it’s high ground plus the owner doesn’t really hunt it anymore. The two half acre plots to the west are to hopefully create some predictable paths to and from the larger plots. The two small plots to the east are really just there because there are clearings and there’s so little food in the area so I figured I’d use them. I don’t live there but I’m there at least every other weekend with the tractor or UTV when it’s not deer season. None of the plots (green shapes) are currently existing. The N & S borders are .7 miles long and E & W are .2 miles long roughly. I plan to use a mix of perennials and spring and fall annuals so there’s always food there. Some things I’d really like feedback on (along with anything else you can think of):


Deer will hear or see me accessing the land when I pull in to park – am I hurting myself with the two small plots to the east or is it worth it just to give them some food? Again, there’s hardly any food in the area.


Will the 0.5 ac plot to the west hurt me since it’s near where the trail fork is? I wouldn’t take the UTV back that far but I’ll probably be within 75 yards of the edge when I’m walking on the trail.


How far do you guys like to keep your smaller plots from larger plots?


What else am I missing?


Thanks for the input! Can’t wait to start the property tour page in the spring!

 

[Native Hunter]

Welcome to the forum. Here are my thoughts:

• Food plots near property lines are an invitation to fence setters shooting deer off your property and ruining your hunting. I prefer to have food plots away from the property lines and have screening along property lines to deter people on the outside from being able to look in.
• You can successfully hunt deer that bed and feed on surrounding properties, but it is much better if they are bedding and feeding (mostly) on your property. The ideal situation is to hunt them between the bedding and the first food source they go to in the evenings and between bedding and the last food source they visit in the mornings.
• Unless you are rifle hunting and can see all food plots from your blind, having scattered plots might not be good. Movement will be less predictable. Consider things that will create predictable lines of movement.
• Nothing is more important than being able to access stands without spooking deer. This is especially true for hunting mature bucks, but even does will soon get on to you if you continually hunt a place wrong.
• With those plots scattered all around like that, you could possibly be running deer off your property as you go to them to do work. You need sanctuary areas that have a good depth of cover between them and where you will be working. I would recommend setting aside sanctuary areas where you seldom get near (except to shed hunt in the spring and to do necessary spring habitat maintenance). The bigger the better and the more remote the better.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

 

[Buckly]

I had this same problem of a rectangular property. I can tell you this, if you use access down the middle of the property your hunting will never be very good. You can still shoot deer but you will run most deer away from your property going down the middle. On a scale of 1-10 your access would be a 2 or 3. What I would try and do is create as best you can defined bedding areas mostly toward the interior. Then put your plots. ( .5 acres or less out toward the edges. Then try and figure out some outside access. Walking maybe the only option to reach stands but that’s not much of a problem on 75 acres. You can use interior roads to do plots and maintenance but not hunting. This, as you’re probably figuring might be a lot of work. And in some cases you just have to go with what the terrain gives you. Create some good interior bedding with trails to your plots then hunt the edges. Where terrain won’t permit that, use the one and done strategy on some questionable stands during the rut.

 

[Matlax]

Thanks guys...great food for thought and exactly what I was hoping for! Looks like I’ll need to make exterior access trails a priority for getting to stands. Any thoughts on how planting some Egyptian grass in the interior may do for developing a sanctuary area while I wait for the undergrowth to start coming up? I’m hoping the logging helps some of those wet areas firm up when the sun starts hitting the ground. That would open up a lot more options for access. Thoughts on the Egyptian grass for sanctuary? Any other thoughts? Thanks again!

 

[Native Hunter]

The problem with "Egyptian Grass" is that it's an annual that must be planted every year. It is used more for screening a food plot or a road rather than in sanctuary areas. If you are planting in a sanctuary, it is no longer a sanctuary because of your human presence. For screening a sanctuary a good option would be hinge cutting trees if that is possible. Go to Youtube and watch some of the videos on hinge cutting, but be careful, because it can be dangerous. If you can find someone with experience to help you, that would be a great idea.

 

[Matlax]

The problem with "Egyptian Grass" is that it's an annual that must be planted every year. It is used more for screening a food plot or a road rather than in sanctuary areas. If you are planting in a sanctuary, it is no longer a sanctuary because of your human presence. For screening a sanctuary a good option would be hinge cutting trees if that is possible. Go to Youtube and watch some of the videos on hinge cutting, but be careful, because it can be dangerous. If you can find someone with experience to help you, that would be a great idea.

 

[Matlax]

Thanks Native! I'm familiar with hinge cutting but with the thinning from the logging, I'd like to avoid taking any more trees down, even if they stay mostly alive. Any tall growing perennials you've had luck with. I'll also be doing some tree and shrub planting so I'll be looking for some fast growing species that can handle wet soil.

 

[Elkaddict]

FWIW, I don’t believe you can have “too thick” for a sanctuary. Just as important for your location, I don’t think you can have enough browse given the lake effect snow you likely experience. I personally would be n a mission to hinge cut those maples. You will be amazed at the draw of “mineral stumps.” I believe it will put more tonnage within reach sooner than allowing regeneration. I’ve played with both and there is no contest. To be clear, I believe both are important.

 

[Native Hunter]

Thanks Native! I'm familiar with hinge cutting but with the thinning from the logging, I'd like to avoid taking any more trees down, even if they stay mostly alive. Any tall growing perennials you've had luck with. I'll also be doing some tree and shrub planting so I'll be looking for some fast growing species that can handle wet soil.

Call Roundstone Native Seeds and ask them the question about wet ground. They may have some ideas. Some species of shrubs might work well - especially gray dogwood and red osier. But these won’t be fast, easy or cheap.

 

[Matlax]

Thanks guys! Any thoughts on how large the sanctuary area should be? Obviously bigger is better but I'd like to concentrate the deer a bit, leave myself spots to hunt, etc. Would it make sense to put it in the far NW corner with the idea being I have the best food in the area and they'll move from there inward on my property? I really appreciate the info!

 

[Matlax]

Regarding the last post, I'd need enough of that area to be on my property so pressure from the neighbor wouldn't negate it.

 

[Matlax]

New update, I'm going to be able to buy the adjacent parcel (the smaller rectangle to the north with the red border already around it). I'm thinking about making the red circle a sanctuary. It's fairly swampy and close to the road, which has me concerned. There's also a house about 100-150 yards northeast of it. The guy has dogs that bark and occasionally shoots in the backyard but not during hunting season. I would plan on hinge cutting and making a mess in that area for bedding. Any thoughts on the sanctuary location or general layout would be greatly appreciated. The original rectangle is 75 acres and the added bump out is 20 acres so the sanctuary is about 5 or 6 acres. Thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

I know this is not what most folks want to hear, but here goes. I may have missed it in your post, but I'm assuming you have just acquired or are just acquiring this land. Based on the size, I'm also assuming your primary objective is to improve hunting rather than trying to impact the local heard health in some measurable way.

Most of us, including me in my early days, are too anxious to get dirt under our fingernails. Habitat management activities can have unintended consequences and actually make deer harder to hunt. It is great that you are exploring different ideas and looking for suggestions. Measure twice and cut once really applies to habitat management.

So, my advice, if you have not already done it, is to slow down and hunt the land as-is for a few years. Learn how deer relate to the current topography and vegetation. Figure out where they are currently bedding and feeding during the hunting season. Then, figure out more specifically how you want to influence that relationship.

Make one change at a time and watch how deer movement changes and consider your next move.

When working with a large chunk of land focusing on QDM rather than huntability, you can make wholesale changes to improve BCC, and deer use in general, of the property. With smaller properties of a couple hundred acres, what happens on other properties has much more impact on what happens on your land. Because you have control over a small portion of a deer's home range, more care is needed in choosing what to do.

It is pretty hard to give specific advice for a property we have not even walked. I would take all advice on specifically what to do as "ideas to consider".

I will say after years of habitat work, some of our improvements have improved hunting and others, that have not panned out for us, have worked great for others. We all have somewhat different objectives as well, and they are the place to start.

Best of luck!

 

[George]

I would probably make 30-40 acres of the whole west end sanctuary.

G

 

[Matlax]

Thanks guys. I’ve owned the land for about 9 years. I probably should have logged it about 5 years ago but the logger is just wrapping up now. I can say I learned something new about it every year I’ve hunted it. I’ll freely admit I’m a bit impatient and also want to have some fun putting seeds in the ground and doing other land work. I figure I can always fill in a plot with fast growing tall grass and shrubs if I decide that plot isn’t working. The land looks completely different now that it’s logged but historically it’s just been a pass through between the properties to my north and south. No browse, food, or ground cover to hold them on my land. I’m hoping the plots will give them the food and the logging will promote some undergrowth for browse and cover. I’m not sure I’ll ever get them sleeping on my land since the guy to the south has 100 acres and lives out of town (not sure if he ever comes up).

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks guys. I’ve owned the land for about 9 years. I probably should have logged it about 5 years ago but the logger is just wrapping up now. I can say I learned something new about it every year I’ve hunted it. I’ll freely admit I’m a bit impatient and also want to have some fun putting seeds in the ground and doing other land work. I figure I can always fill in a plot with fast growing tall grass and shrubs if I decide that plot isn’t working. The land looks completely different now that it’s logged but historically it’s just been a pass through between the properties to my north and south. No browse, food, or ground cover to hold them on my land. I’m hoping the plots will give them the food and the logging will promote some undergrowth for browse and cover. I’m not sure I’ll ever get them sleeping on my land since the guy to the south has 100 acres and lives out of town (not sure if he ever comes up).

Every timber operation we have had on ours completely changed how deer related to the place.

 

[George]

Browse is everything. Sounds like you already have 100 acres of sanctuary to your south.

G

 

[Drycreek]

I don’t know if 80 acres is large enough for a true sanctuary. My place is 80 acres with a 36 acre plot that nobody uses right off my SW corner. I tried to buy it, but he wouldn’t sell. As it is, deer may sleep on him, but they feed on me. I do have a few acres that serve as somewhat of a bedding area, but you can’t fart on 80 acres without the deer knowing it. The best I can do is to be as surreptitious as I can about entering and leaving my one stand and never hunting when the wind is not favorable.

Having said that, anything you can do to provide more browse and “thicken up” your ground will be beneficial to you as well as the deer. The thicker it is the more secure the deer will feel, and the more browse they will have. I have a 3/4 acre food plot in the approximate center of my place, and plant wheat in it each fall. The wheat draws the does and the does draw the bucks. I’ve owned this place for 25+ years and every now and then the deer still surprise me. Sometimes they change where they enter the food plot even when nothing else has changed. I agree with yoderjac that taking it slowly is good advice. I wish someone had told me that years ago. Good luck !

 

[Matlax]

Thanks creek!

 

[HuronMtn]

Wow, nice property and projects you have in hand. Lot's of good advice in the above.

I have a very similar piece of property in similar-sounding big woods habitat, but in another state (Upper Michigan). I am about 9 years into it and would emphasize the following from my experience:

> Yes, definitely hunt the property a few years first before making big commitments to changes. Then firm up your plans, or least implement things in an incremental way that allows your property to "teach you" as you go.
> Sanctuaries are important. I have about one-third of my land as sanctuary.
> A big woods property can require a much higher ratio of food plot acreage depending on when you intend to hunt it. I find I draw deer from miles away since there are no other high-quality food sources around. With just a few acres in plots they were eating me out of food by early October; and since our season starts October 1, that wasn't working out very well. I now have ten percent of my 120A in plots, which now gets me to the end of October before they have eaten it all. So for all my effort I get a 30-day hunting window that is food-source pattern oriented. After that I have to hunt the hormones the old fashioned way. You mentioned you have oaks so that may take some of the pressure off your plots.
> It is a lot of work to maintain plots every year unless you have help. I don't, so after I learned what plantings worked on my soils I had to make trade-offs. I found it very critical to select plants that establish well, and persist for at least 5 years without much TLC. That long persistence gives me options for when I have to turn a plot over. With eleven food plots I find I can maintain things turning over 2-3 plots per year.
> I have converted some of my former food plots into partial pollinator plantings. I have found that those plantings are attractive to the deer for bedding and they love to browse many of the native plants in the pollinator mix.
> On my property the deer don't seem to be bothered by the trails we have put in. But like others have pointed out, one needs to be thoughtful about approach and return routes to stands/blinds. I really ignore my trails in that regard and just take whatever route makes the most sense to minimize awareness that I am there.
> I find having a quiet period well before hunting starts is important. My son and I usually stop going out on the property with the tractor or atvs 2-3 weeks before bow season opens on October 1. And prior to that we, in general, always try to be very disciplined about minimizing the disturbance we cause when working the property.

Good luck!