Private Land vs. Shared Public Land

[Mennoniteman]

I just read this interesting article by John Stossel; Thanksgiving- What the Pilgrims knew about Socialism and Private Property "The Pilgrims had clashing ideas about how to organize their settlement in the New World. Their collective farming -- the whole community deciding when and how much to plant, when to harvest, who would do the work -- was an inefficient disaster, in other words: socialism. “By the spring,” Pilgrim leader William Bradford wrote in his diary, “our food stores were used up and people grew weak and thin. His answer: divide the commune into parcels and assign each Pilgrim family its own property. His resolution made the first Thanksgiving possible. When property rights are tossed aside, even for the sake of religious fellowship or in the name of the working class, people just don’t work as hard. Private property protects us from what economists call the tragedy of the commons. The “commons” is a shared resource. That means it’s really owned by no one, and no one person has much incentive to protect it or develop it" (there's more to this article, good read)

That sentence really caught my eye: and no one person has much incentive to protect it or develop it...
This is the reality of deer habitat management; no one wants to help work, but everyone wants to hunt the food plots, even if they have to sneak in to do it. However, things are about to change here: To keep farmers happy with our newly passed Sunday Hunting three days a year, the State of Pennsylvania has just enacted a much harsher "No Trespassing" law, including a new violation; "Trespassing While Hunting" with the first offense being a class 5 misdemeanor with $250-$500 fine, a second offense is a class 3 misdemeanor with $3000 fine and jail time, hunters need written permission to hunt, fines double on Sundays, land only needs to be reasonably posted, a game cam picture is permissible evidence, and local police and wildlife conservation officers are now authorized to enforce these laws. BTW, our WCO's thrive on aggressively enforcing laws, but in the past they didn't have jurisdiction over trespassing.

So what does this mean for hunters? Pennsylvania may no longer have the weakest private land laws in the nation, and landowners may be able to get away from people who sneak on their land but have "no incentive to protect or develop it".
I believe in being peaceful and helping my fellow man as much as I can, so I sometimes struggle with the thought, am I being greedy by not allowing people to hunt who don't want to contribute?

 

[Chainsaw]

First, great thread and post Mennoniteman. That is wonderful news about more muscle in your trespassing laws. On being greedy, not even close! In 2018 our property with protection and help from us grew 39 bucks according to our 42,000 cam picture survey;we took four bucks this year that had grown here two to four years ago. This property likely grew another 39 bucks in 2019. In 2020 we will likely take another three or four from those grown in 2016 or 17. The property has a finite amount of bucks it can hold; While and after that finite number is being reached some not "extra" quality and mature deer move onto the neighbors plus all of the extras move also where they are mostly quickly harvested and often by people who put in zero habitat work and are taking way more deer than the law allows. Allowing those people to trespass would be counterproductive for both us workers, other workers and the non-working takers.

Here if this property allowed trespassing it would no longer be growing around 39 bucks per year and quickly after that mature bucks on this block would be a thing of the past again. Since we are taking for ourselves only 10.25% of the bucks we are helping to grow and leaving the other almost 90% for other people whether they be lazy, law abiding or lawless we are not only being generous but more importantly we are also ensuring the future of a quality deer herd consisting of both young and mature animals. And the takers/non-workers are being handed an opportunity for quality hunting that they otherwise would not have.

 

[dogghr]

Not sure it makes much difference as I heard at least 10 shots various directions at dusk over the last 2 wks before rifle season. Doubt they were working on their zero. Those that cheat will always cheat unless you can own hundreds of acres which I doubt most on these type of forums do. But I will say I’ve educated my bucks well as I can get them to 4 yo which is unreal in this state where nearly a qtr of the population of this state are hunting these 2 wks of rifle. Pilgrims are overrated and doubt they ate much if any turkey, probably mainly vegetarians.

 

[X-farmerdan]

I think we are about to go down a slippery slope. I too struggle with the freeloader problem, but, then, I am under no obligation to plant food plots or do habitat improvement in an effort to "own" more wildlife. That statement sounds counter productive! Yes, I'm a strong proponent of property rights. I may have worked hard to be able to own my land, or, I may have just been fortunate while others have not. I do hope to leave the land better than I found it. I get great joy out of nature allowing me to understand and work with it. But, when it comes to the wildlife, let it be what it might. I see two, and maybe even three, of the seven deadly sins often ready to burst out among we who pursue this passion. Pride. Wrath. Greed. It's often difficult to find balance.

Be thankful for all that you have. Rejoice and be glad in it!

 

[Mennoniteman]

Not sure it makes much difference as I heard at least 10 shots various directions at dusk over the last 2 wks before rifle season. Doubt they were working on their zero. Those that cheat will always cheat unless you can own hundreds of acres which I doubt most on these type of forums do. But I will say I’ve educated my bucks well as I can get them to 4 yo which is unreal in this state where nearly a qtr of the population of this state are hunting these 2 wks of rifle. Pilgrims are overrated and doubt they ate much if any turkey, probably mainly vegetarians.

If you own hundreds of acres it just gives poachers more opportunities to sneak on.

I think we are about to go down a slippery slope. I too struggle with the freeloader problem, but, then, I am under no obligation to plant food plots or do habitat improvement in an effort to "own" more wildlife. That statement sounds counter productive! Yes, I'm a strong proponent of property rights. I may have worked hard to be able to own my land, or, I may have just been fortunate while others have not. I do hope to leave the land better than I found it. I get great joy out of nature allowing me to understand and work with it. But, when it comes to the wildlife, let it be what it might. I see two, and maybe even three, of the seven deadly sins often ready to burst out among we who pursue this passion. Pride. Wrath. Greed. It's often difficult to find balance.

Be thankful for all that you have. Rejoice and be glad in it!

Thanks for the wisdom. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers.

 

[dogghr]

If you own hundreds of acres it just gives poachers more opportunities to sneak on.

Thanks for the wisdom. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our trespassers.

That is probably so true. I shouldn’t complain, as I have no fences, no posted signs, yet each of us respect the others properties. I’ve never had a trespasser on camera except for a stray cow or two. My stuff stays safe whether left out or locked up. I got a call from passerby as strange truck was at the farm at my open barn. It was me in my SIL truck. Can’t beat neighbors like that and in reality I don’t mind the occasional off season poach as long as its not excessive or someone doesn’t brag of a bow kill when obvious rifle neck shot was made. That I will call them out on.
I as others grew up hunting whatever lands we chose to cross , no problem. We also have millions of acres of public land. Some of the worst offenders are dog bear hunters who think we still live in pilgrim times, and some of them are my friends. I’m lucky here and shouldn’t have really ranted on my post. And I’m sure the pilgrims had turkey and dressing , I sure will.

 

[Native Hunter]

The taxidermist found a 22 bullet lodged in the jaw of my deer this year. I told a guy at church, and he replied. "...those dang deer will eat almost anything....." I will keep an eye on that deacon from now on........

 

[dogghr]

The taxidermist found a 22 bullet lodged in the jaw of my deer this year. I told a guy at church, and he replied. "...those dang deer will eat almost anything....." I will keep an eye on that deacon from now on........

Some of the worst offenders I’ve ever known were conservation officers and troopers. Maybe should add some church people to that list. Lol
We had big buck posted on WV buck FB page of trophy bow kill. Someone pointed out how it amazingly had no apparent wounds other that bloody eye that had been shot out by head shot. Gotta love a good liar that thinks everyone is stupid.


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[Deadeye]

Warning this one gets long.


So which three days (Sunday’s) are open for hunting now in Pa?

They had a 3-day a week season on Crows for years— Friday Saturday Sunday. Made no sense.

After leaving Pa to live and Hunt in other states it quickly became apparent just how shall I say Backward their rules were.

Many guys only have the weekend to hunt and opening Sunday to hunting gives those guys a better chance of success.

Now as to is and what was.

Long gone are the days when guys took off two weeks each year- Bear Season thru the First Week of Deer Season. Camps were full of guys and the Car Light Parade coming up Rt 28 from Pittsburgh was long and non stop. If you didn’t have a Camp the Hotels held Open Arms to welcome you in and they were packed. Many reserved their room each year for Next Year as soon as they checked in.

Honestly there wasn’t anywhere you couldn’t go to hunt. The Farmers didn’t care if you did and in fact Counted on it to help reduce their Deer Damage to their Crops.

I had literally Thousands upon Thousands of Acres I could hunt on or just stay on the Family 600 or so.

Talk to many and they will say it all changed when GREED set in along with the (dare I say it) QDMA Movement.

Land owners that had land that was free to hunt on now had people approaching them to Lease them the land fir their Private Use. As one group took this spot, those that hunted there for generations now look for a place for them- which they Leased. Then those had to Lease, then well you get the picture.

This may ruffle some feathers but in a way we are going back to the Kings and Serfs way of life when it comes to Hunting. Those with the money hold the Land and keep those that don’t out.

Where does the Line if What is Right and What is Wrong get crossed? I surely do not hold the answer.

I see both sides having been on both sides. Growing up we had Land. It what was left over from the VAST Miles of Land that my Family had owned at one time. My 2nd Grandfather in this country walked carting a Burlap Bag filled with Pennies his Mother had saved over 20 miles to the closest Land Office and bought all the Land For Sale from the Original Family Farm in every direction.

They owned land for Miles in almost every direction. As the kids grew up, married and were ready to start their families, they were given a Farm of their own. After several genera had passed my Grandfather owned about a thousand acres that was left on the Original Homestead. He sold about 400 acres to two neighbors leaving him around 600-700.

We could go pretty much wherever we wanted.

Now living in Florida where I started with a 1/4 acre lot that my home was built on, I see how “the other side” lived when it came to hunting.

Land Owners are afraid to allow “work for hunting” due to so many Lawsuits when someone got hurt.

Well that was long. But when it comes to “owning and growing deer” you don’t. Unless you bought ground, fenced it in and had all the deer removed then bought deer for stock to bring in and manage. Then you own them.

Other than that they belong to the People of the State, unless your state had different rules which say you own and animals on your deeded land.

That doesn’t mean you have to allow anyone to hunt there, but you can’t stop the deer from walking over to Joe’s Place and he shoots them.


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[Mennoniteman]

Warning this one gets long.


So which three days (Sunday’s) are open for hunting now in Pa?

They had a 3-day a week season on Crows for years— Friday Saturday Sunday. Made no sense.

After leaving Pa to live and Hunt in other states it quickly became apparent just how shall I say Backward their rules were.

Many guys only have the weekend to hunt and opening Sunday to hunting gives those guys a better chance of success.

Now as to is and what was.

Long gone are the days when guys took off two weeks each year- Bear Season thru the First Week of Deer Season. Camps were full of guys and the Car Light Parade coming up Rt 28 from Pittsburgh was long and non stop. If you didn’t have a Camp the Hotels held Open Arms to welcome you in and they were packed. Many reserved their room each year for Next Year as soon as they checked in.

Honestly there wasn’t anywhere you couldn’t go to hunt. The Farmers didn’t care if you did and in fact Counted on it to help reduce their Deer Damage to their Crops.

I had literally Thousands upon Thousands of Acres I could hunt on or just stay on the Family 600 or so.

Talk to many and they will say it all changed when GREED set in along with the (dare I say it) QDMA Movement.

Land owners that had land that was free to hunt on now had people approaching them to Lease them the land fir their Private Use. As one group took this spot, those that hunted there for generations now look for a place for them- which they Leased. Then those had to Lease, then well you get the picture.

This may ruffle some feathers but in a way we are going back to the Kings and Serfs way of life when it comes to Hunting. Those with the money hold the Land and keep those that don’t out.

Where does the Line if What is Right and What is Wrong get crossed? I surely do not hold the answer.

I see both sides having been on both sides. Growing up we had Land. It what was left over from the VAST Miles of Land that my Family had owned at one time. My 2nd Grandfather in this country walked carting a Burlap Bag filled with Pennies his Mother had saved over 20 miles to the closest Land Office and bought all the Land For Sale from the Original Family Farm in every direction.

They owned land for Miles in almost every direction. As the kids grew up, married and were ready to start their families, they were given a Farm of their own. After several genera had passed my Grandfather owned about a thousand acres that was left on the Original Homestead. He sold about 400 acres to two neighbors leaving him around 600-700.

We could go pretty much wherever we wanted.

Now living in Florida where I started with a 1/4 acre lot that my home was built on, I see how “the other side” lived when it came to hunting.

Land Owners are afraid to allow “work for hunting” due to so many Lawsuits when someone got hurt.

Well that was long. But when it comes to “owning and growing deer” you don’t. Unless you bought ground, fenced it in and had all the deer removed then bought deer for stock to bring in and manage. Then you own them.

Other than that they belong to the People of the State, unless your state had different rules which say you own and animals on your deeded land.

That doesn’t mean you have to allow anyone to hunt there, but you can’t stop the deer from walking over to Joe’s Place and he shoots them.


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Per the new state law hunting on Sunday is forbidden except for the Sunday after the archery opener, the Sunday after the buck rifle opener, and one Sunday to be determined by the game commission. Also crows and coyotes are still legal on Sundays.

 

[Drycreek]

I could not, would not, live there. I like Hershey’s chocolate though.......

 

[TreeDaddy]

I think we are about to go down a slippery slope. I too struggle with the freeloader problem, but, then, I am under no obligation to plant food plots or do habitat improvement in an effort to "own" more wildlife. That statement sounds counter productive! Yes, I'm a strong proponent of property rights. I may have worked hard to be able to own my land, or, I may have just been fortunate while others have not. I do hope to leave the land better than I found it. I get great joy out of nature allowing me to understand and work with it. But, when it comes to the wildlife, let it be what it might. I see two, and maybe even three, of the seven deadly sins often ready to burst out among we who pursue this passion. Pride. Wrath. Greed. It's often difficult to find balance.

Be thankful for all that you have. Rejoice and be glad in it!

Ok, i have to ask this.....

I follow farmer dan on other sites and find his posts on soil chemistry,health,and biology to be extremely informative and helpful

So..... are X FarmerDan and FarmerDan the same?

Is this a Clark Kent/Superman ,Peter Parker/SpiderMan thing?

bill

 

[Mennoniteman]

Ok, i have to ask this.....

I follow farmer dan on other sites and find his posts on soil chemistry,health,and biology to be extremely informative and helpful

So..... are X FarmerDan and FarmerDan the same?

Is this a Clark Kent/Superman ,Peter Parker/SpiderMan thing?

bill

Perhaps a split personality, like Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?

 

[X-farmerdan]

Ok, i have to ask this.....

I follow farmer dan on other sites and find his posts on soil chemistry,health,and biology to be extremely informative and helpful

So..... are X FarmerDan and FarmerDan the same?

Is this a Clark Kent/Superman ,Peter Parker/SpiderMan thing?

bill

Yes, but I'm not sure what kind of thing it is. Something happened in the transition from the old humpty dumpty site to this and the other forum to which you refer. I don't remember what it was. Maybe someone else already had my name, I dunno.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I think we are about to go down a slippery slope. I too struggle with the freeloader problem, but, then, I am under no obligation to plant food plots or do habitat improvement in an effort to "own" more wildlife. That statement sounds counter productive! Yes, I'm a strong proponent of property rights. I may have worked hard to be able to own my land, or, I may have just been fortunate while others have not. I do hope to leave the land better than I found it. I get great joy out of nature allowing me to understand and work with it. But, when it comes to the wildlife, let it be what it might. I see two, and maybe even three, of the seven deadly sins often ready to burst out among we who pursue this passion. Pride. Wrath. Greed. It's often difficult to find balance.

Be thankful for all that you have. Rejoice and be glad in it!

Not to be disagreeable, just thinking this through, your opening statement sounds something like; I shouldn't be making improvements to my own property if I don't want other people stealing some of it?

 

[X-farmerdan]

Not to be disagreeable, just thinking this through, your opening statement sounds something like; I shouldn't be making improvements to my own property if I don't want other people stealing some of it?

No, not at all. I'm not sure how to frame it. I guess my position is when we take an action there probably will always be unintended consequences. Or, maybe we can see some possible problems with our actions. But, what level of effort should we take to forestall those consequences? Do we get so control oriented (don't get me wrong, control is important) that we waste time and energy and --the joy of life?

And, I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever used the word "stealing." You did. My position is that some of the results of your good efforts are going to leak off your property and benefit others. For me, I am happy for it and glad for the joy it brings the neighbors.

I'm still not sure I've adequately conveyed my personally confused and conflicted sentiment. And, on this day where we take a moment to give thanks, it's just not that important.

 

[MarkDarvin]

This sums up my feelings on land. Everyone loves blowing money on their hobbies and passions. Land is one of them. I like all kinds of other stuff I don't buy, but I don't feel everyone should subsidize it on my behalf so I can use it for free.

Land is the American dream. Most places on earth you can't own land. If it's important to you, get some. If not, stay off mine and don't ask me for a handout. I wouldn't ask anyone else to buy me a nice pickup, house, or TV.

 

[Mennoniteman]

No, not at all. I'm not sure how to frame it. I guess my position is when we take an action there probably will always be unintended consequences. Or, maybe we can see some possible problems with our actions. But, what level of effort should we take to forestall those consequences? Do we get so control oriented (don't get me wrong, control is important) that we waste time and energy and --the joy of life?

And, I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever used the word "stealing." You did. My position is that some of the results of your good efforts are going to leak off your property and benefit others. For me, I am happy for it and glad for the joy it brings the neighbors.

I'm still not sure I've adequately conveyed my personally confused and conflicted sentiment. And, on this day where we take a moment to give thanks, it's just not that important.

I think we are on the same page. When you said "freeloader" I assumed that you meant a poacher stealing, because I don't consider my neighbors as freeloaders. When we manage our deer population we figure some in for the neighbors right away, that is our Thanksgiving gift to them. As soon as a deer crosses onto their property from our side they are welcome to it, assuming they are legally pursuing them same as we do. The freeloaders beg, brownnose, threaten, or sneak onto our land, but would never pay or work for hunting privileges.

 

[OkieKubota]

Your neighbors shouldn’t be considered freeloaders because obviously there is something that the deer are attracted to on their land when they leave yours. The deer that use our place I would say spend more than 75% of their time on the neighbors. The main thing they find on our place is food and does. The neighbors have better bedding so when they go to bed most leave...I am going to be working on that hole in the bucket this winter...

 

[X-farmerdan]

I think we are on the same page. When you said "freeloader" I assumed that you meant a poacher stealing, because I don't consider my neighbors as freeloaders. When we manage our deer population we figure some in for the neighbors right away, that is our Thanksgiving gift to them. As soon as a deer crosses onto their property from our side they are welcome to it, assuming they are legally pursuing them same as we do. The freeloaders beg, brownnose, threaten, or sneak onto our land, but would never pay or work for hunting privileges.

I couldn't think of the right term. I used freeloader when I meant 'free-rider.' I understand freeloader has a tone of disparagement in it. Free-rider is a descriptive, economic term, that should be opinion neutral. At least I hope you would see it that way.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1626/economics/free-rider-problem/