Ohio Farm Tours

[Mennoniteman]

After several soil tests the how’s and why’s I’ve decided to use a fish hydrolosate fertilizer to help push my production to the next level without oxidizing synthetics.

Although I prefer reading print to watching long-winded videos, I did watch most of your videos, (until they froze) and my take on your garden is that your organic matter is low, which is more critical than fertilizer. I have never added any nitrogen to my garden and it's growing stuff like it's on steroids, but our OM is high.

 

[buckhunter10]

Although I prefer reading print to watching long-winded videos, I did watch most of your videos, (until they froze) and my take on your garden is that your organic matter is low, which is more critical than fertilizer. I have never added any nitrogen to my garden and it's growing stuff like it's on steroids, but our OM is high.

4.6% OM is low? Relative to what?

I am not sure why the videos froze but the point of the videos was not to show my needs for fertilizer or not needs. It was to show the variability in results from labs. My Haney test results came back with a 4.6% OM and a carbon respiration in the 244+. My garden produces a TON of food. I just used my garden as a control. The Fish Hydro is only to test a inexpensive foliar spray on small scale but as I mentioned in video, I have produced enough naturally soluble nutrients - I could sustain great yields, absent of fertilizer.

Also OM in a dysfunctional system, is not nearly as important as less OM in a functional system - IMO. OM importance is relative to the cec of the soil and the nutrient transferability, imo. Example sandy soil with a 2-4% OM is great!! 4-6% OM anywhere else is good to great and anything over 6% is unreal!!

if we are over fertilizing, sure we can grow Great crops but are we increasing nutrient density? Are we creating a soil environment which lends itself to better water infiltration and rhizosheaths? Highly unlikely.

thanks for watching. Also thanks for the SP check on the fish hydro and the comment, good points. It’s as old as time yet used less than triple 13…..

Always have enjoyed your insight, sir.

Albert

 

[buckhunter10]

Here is a good visual example of what we mean when folks say soil aggregates.

Get outside and Build Better Soil!

 

[buckhunter10]

Although I prefer reading print to watching long-winded videos, I did watch most of your videos, (until they froze) and my take on your garden is that your organic matter is low, which is more critical than fertilizer. I have never added any nitrogen to my garden and it's growing stuff like it's on steroids, but our OM is high.

PS. Beautiful garden

 

[Mennoniteman]

4.6% OM is low? Relative to what?

I am not sure why the videos froze but the point of the videos was not to show my needs for fertilizer or not needs. It was to show the variability in results from labs. My Haney test results came back with a 4.6% OM and a carbon respiration in the 244+. My garden produces a TON of food. I just used my garden as a control. The Fish Hydro is only to test a inexpensive foliar spray on small scale but as I mentioned in video, I have produced enough naturally soluble nutrients - I could sustain great yields, absent of fertilizer.

Also OM in a dysfunctional system, is not nearly as important as less OM in a functional system - IMO. OM importance is relative to the cec of the soil and the nutrient transferability, imo. Example sandy soil with a 2-4% OM is great!! 4-6% OM anywhere else is good to great and anything over 6% is unreal!!

if we are over fertilizing, sure we can grow Great crops but are we increasing nutrient density? Are we creating a soil environment which lends itself to better water infiltration and rhizosheaths? Highly unlikely.

thanks for watching. Also thanks for the SP check on the fish hydro and the comment, good points. It’s as old as time yet used less than triple 13…..

Always have enjoyed your insight, sir.

Albert

I wasn't trying to be disagreeable, I think you and I generally agree on most things related to soil. And although I noted your variable soil test results I did miss that it was your main point of your video related to your foliar fertilizer, i should've paid more attention. Yes, your OM levels are in a good range, but if someone wants to go organic, if they start their own composting pile and get it applied on their garden in larger quantities for relatively cheap, it's easy to get OM levels up in the 16% range and not need any other fertilizer at all. Compost is usually loaded with micronutrients as well. I'm talking gardens now, composting isn't really feasible for larger fields and food plots.

 

[buckhunter10]

I wasn't trying to be disagreeable, I think you and I generally agree on most things related to soil. And although I noted your variable soil test results I did miss that it was your main point of your video related to your foliar fertilizer, i should've paid more attention. Yes, your OM levels are in a good range, but if someone wants to go organic, if they start their own composting pile and get it applied on their garden in larger quantities for relatively cheap, it's easy to get OM levels up in the 16% range and not need any other fertilizer at all. Compost is usually loaded with micronutrients as well. I'm talking gardens now, composting isn't really feasible for larger fields and food plots.

All good points - although, do you think that maintaining a 16% OM is feasible? I worry about inputs, hurting our plants abilities to communicate with the microbiome. Specifically if receiving too much N and P. I know Dr. Christine Jones has some amazing research on this and showing that when plants are supplemented by N and P (which can have heavy amounts in manure/compost - depending on the source), they suffer to communicate with the fungal networks.

Everything I do in my garden (at least now, maybe Ill change in the future), is my attempt to create high-quality products through methods that could be scaled. For example, light foliar applications, cover crops, inter-seeded crops, etc. I wont even buy straw, as I only want to use thatch that I created. I do use compost but it is only from the compost in which I create and is typically a thin layer spread on the garden, similar to wood ash.

Also, sorry if I came off as rude in my response... a newborn at home and was typing quickly on my phone... so if my tone was blunt, it was not my intention. Always appreciate your input, sir.

Albert

 

[Mennoniteman]

16% OM is attainable in a garden, there are naturally occurring soils with a higher OM than this, but in a lot of large production fields with sandy soils that level may not be attainable, and definitely would come at a high short term cost. However, I think that increasing OM at attainable levels is the wave of the future of sustainable farming, and will eventually be promoted by NRCS through paid programs to increase OM. (Note: straight manure is not good in unreasonable quantities, compost should be the main option considered. Also, there is something like OM with added fertilizer levels being too high, promoting excessive nutrient runoff, however, this is not a common occurrence as most compost users don't use any chemical fertilizer, and compost done properly alleviates runoff)

You mention OM giving plants to much N and P, OM does exactly the opposite, it locks up nutrients and disperses them slowly, which pays off on the long term because it will all eventually be released, but OM brings a temptation to do tillage and reap the benefits right away. A good analogy making the comparisons of the soil microbe activity in a low OM, fertilized tillage example, compared to soil microbe activity in a no-till, high OM example would be similar to feeding teenagers a diet of soda and candy with periods of starvation in between, compared to feeding them a steady healthy balanced diet of the five food groups.

OM is a great fertilizer reserve, actually the only plant food reserve the soil has, storing plant energy like an agriculture battery, as 1% of soil organic matter holds 1,000 lb of nitrogen, plus P and K. OM also stores huge amounts of carbon (ESA quote: soils contain approximately 75% of the carbon pool on land — three times more than the amount stored in living plants and animals) The catch to stored carbon is this temptation that I already mentioned, for farmers to do tillage, introducing oxygen which releases the stored fertilizer values, making the current crop achieve higher yields, but at a huge long-term cost that's not readily noticeable.

So to bring my rambling point to a close; these are the reasons why all conversations about "Regenerative Farming" usually start and end with organic matter, and why I believe we are currently only seeing the beginning stages of this being pushed by the powers that be. And this is my train of thought when I mention 4.6% OM being less than average in a garden.

 

[buckhunter10]

16% OM is attainable in a garden, there are naturally occurring soils with a higher OM than this, but in a lot of large production fields with sandy soils that level may not be attainable, and definitely would come at a high short term cost. However, I think that increasing OM at attainable levels is the wave of the future of sustainable farming, and will eventually be promoted by NRCS through paid programs to increase OM. (Note: straight manure is not good in unreasonable quantities, compost should be the main option considered. Also, there is something like OM with added fertilizer levels being too high, promoting excessive nutrient runoff, however, this is not a common occurrence as most compost users don't use any chemical fertilizer, and compost done properly alleviates runoff)

You mention OM giving plants to much N and P, OM does exactly the opposite, it locks up nutrients and disperses them slowly, which pays off on the long term because it will all eventually be released, but OM brings a temptation to do tillage and reap the benefits right away. A good analogy making the comparisons of the soil microbe activity in a low OM, fertilized tillage example, compared to soil microbe activity in a no-till, high OM example would be similar to feeding teenagers a diet of soda and candy with periods of starvation in between, compared to feeding them a steady healthy balanced diet of the five food groups.

OM is a great fertilizer reserve, actually the only plant food reserve the soil has, storing plant energy like an agriculture battery, as 1% of soil organic matter holds 1,000 lb of nitrogen, plus P and K. OM also stores huge amounts of carbon (ESA quote: soils contain approximately 75% of the carbon pool on land — three times more than the amount stored in living plants and animals) The catch to stored carbon is this temptation that I already mentioned, for farmers to do tillage, introducing oxygen which releases the stored fertilizer values, making the current crop achieve higher yields, but at a huge long-term cost that's not readily noticeable.

So to bring my rambling point to a close; these are the reasons why all conversations about "Regenerative Farming" usually start and end with organic matter, and why I believe we are currently only seeing the beginning stages of this being pushed by the powers that be. And this is my train of thought when I mention 4.6% OM being less than average in a garden.

I think you misunderstood my point about OM. I understand the importance of it, and yes it is often referenced - 20,000 gallons of water per 1%, increased nutrient holding capacity, etc. No argument there.

However, there are very high OM soils (IL, IOWA, ETC.), that produce less nutrient-dense crops due to them being in a dysfunctional system. We can have high OM, do no-till, and rely on inputs, which will hinder our plant's abilities to communicate with the fungal networks and sequester nutrients through the rhizophagey cycle (Dr. James White). John Kempf has some wonderful information about this as well.

If we are solely relying on compost additions to increase our OM, I would just make sure it is a high-quality compost, with limited nitrates - specifically if it is manure-based. I believe it was Dr. Christine Jones, where she spoke about Nitrogen as the Double Edge Sword, this is where plants stopped producing rhizosheats, and the CO2 respiration from the microbes was several hindered because the plant's exudates were heavily reduced due to increased N inputs. Be it synthetic, too many legumes, and even manure/compost applications, plants will get lazy and reduce exudation if force fed - to your point, this is why tillage is so convenient and a draw to go back to always- fast results!

So for me, I am actually the opposite. Although I see value in OM, I don't believe it is the holy grail as I once thought. I believe it is important and a nice baseline. However, I am more interested in my microbial activity, as I can continue to balance my carbon to nitrogen ratios of cover crops and maintain a VERY high and healthy microbial population both at a garden level and at a large field level.

Everyone has different goals but to me, that is what I am after.

If you get a chance to listen to my video on the Haney Soil Test reviews, I quote Ward Labs (people who did my tests) and they shared my nutrient availability in my soil is off the charts...yet my OM is low (to your standards). My microbial activity is also extremely high and their suggestion for fertilizer was basically 0, yet I wanted to simply try some foliar applications for fun.

Great convo, sir. I appreciate your inputs. Much Respect.

Albert

 

[Mennoniteman]

I think you misunderstood my point about OM. I understand the importance of it, and yes it is often referenced - 20,000 gallons of water per 1%, increased nutrient holding capacity, etc. No argument there.

However, there are very high OM soils (IL, IOWA, ETC.), that produce less nutrient-dense crops due to them being in a dysfunctional system. We can have high OM, do no-till, and rely on inputs, which will hinder our plant's abilities to communicate with the fungal networks and sequester nutrients through the rhizophagey cycle (Dr. James White). John Kempf has some wonderful information about this as well.

If we are solely relying on compost additions to increase our OM, I would just make sure it is a high-quality compost, with limited nitrates - specifically if it is manure-based. I believe it was Dr. Christine Jones, where she spoke about Nitrogen as the Double Edge Sword, this is where plants stopped producing rhizosheats, and the CO2 respiration from the microbes was several hindered because the plant's exudates were heavily reduced due to increased N inputs. Be it synthetic, too many legumes, and even manure/compost applications, plants will get lazy and reduce exudation if force fed - to your point, this is why tillage is so convenient and a draw to go back to always- fast results!

So for me, I am actually the opposite. Although I see value in OM, I don't believe it is the holy grail as I once thought. I believe it is important and a nice baseline. However, I am more interested in my microbial activity, as I can continue to balance my carbon to nitrogen ratios of cover crops and maintain a VERY high and healthy microbial population both at a garden level and at a large field level.

Everyone has different goals but to me, that is what I am after.

If you get a chance to listen to my video on the Haney Soil Test reviews, I quote Ward Labs (people who did my tests) and they shared my nutrient availability in my soil is off the charts...yet my OM is low (to your standards). My microbial activity is also extremely high and their suggestion for fertilizer was basically 0, yet I wanted to simply try some foliar applications for fun.

Great convo, sir. I appreciate your inputs. Much Respect.

Albert

Excellent analysis! And you make the most important point well; soil improvement is not one dimensional, it's multifaceted, with several of the most important factors needing to be within a specific range to get good results. One that I feel is in the top five that you just mentioned is the carbon/nitrogen ratio, and is an easy one to balance with clover and grain, plus building OM while doing so. This is where I would advise newbies to start to improve poor soil. Allen

 

[buckhunter10]

Excellent analysis! And you make the most important point well; soil improvement is not one dimensional, it's multifaceted, with several of the most important factors needing to be within a specific range to get good results. One that I feel is in the top five that you just mentioned is the carbon/nitrogen ratio, and is an easy one to balance with clover and grain, plus building OM while doing so. This is where I would advise newbies to start to improve poor soil. Allen

Now the next thing I need is you to help me once I get my no-till drill, to fine-tune it!! Give me a year or two. Then we can really have fun building soil and sharing techniques, sir!

 

[dogghr]

Chicken litter hard to beat. Great looking stuff you have going.

 

[buckhunter10]

Chicken litter hard to beat. Great looking stuff you have going.

I have some in my compost pile!

Ironically, I was listening to this webinar with John Kempf today. Super interesting take on his definition of OM vs. Humics and what is most important. He explains the importance of the emphasis on MAC % - microbial active carbon, this is on the Haney Test Reports.

This is interesting to me because, at 4.6% OM, my soil had a 185% MAC - which is WAY above Ward labs suggested range (50-75%). Not saying that is bad for my soi but shows the microbial activity is very high, which means I need to ensure an adequate carbon source is available to continue the balance, hence the addition of grass clippings and my continued mowing between inter-seeded rows. I should probably add straw but I want to experiment doing this all based on what I have on hand.

Lastly, I find it interesting because John explains that there is not any correlation between OM and microbial populations. He uses muck soils with 40% OM as an example. He talks about how although they have a high OM, they can hardly sustain a biological population....interesting stuff. John is a wealth of knowledge and far better to listen to than I, if this interests you - I highly suggest giving him a listen.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I have some in my compost pile!

Ironically, I was listening to this webinar with John Kempf today. Super interesting take on his definition of OM vs. Humics and what is most important. He explains the importance of the emphasis on MAC % - microbial active carbon, this is on the Haney Test Reports.

This is interesting to me because, at 4.6% OM, my soil had a 185% MAC - which is WAY above Ward labs suggested range (50-75%). Not saying that is bad for my soi but shows the microbial activity is very high, which means I need to ensure an adequate carbon source is available to continue the balance, hence the addition of grass clippings and my continued mowing between inter-seeded rows. I should probably add straw but I want to experiment doing this all based on what I have on hand.

Lastly, I find it interesting because John explains that there is not any correlation between OM and microbial populations. He uses muck soils with 40% OM as an example. He talks about how although they have a high OM, they can hardly sustain a biological population....interesting stuff. John is a wealth of knowledge and far better to listen to than I, if this interests you - I highly suggest giving him a listen.

I like that you mention straw. If soil improvement has a magic bullet it's straw, and for most of us in reasonable climes straw is not something you buy, it's too easy to grow your own, often as a double crop or a companion crop.
I try to grow straw in most of my fields once a year, often throw n mow into clover in late summer, notilled into clover in early spring, a component of a fall brassica plot, or by driving through beans and corn with a tractor and spinner.
Benefits: Erosion control, OM builder, carbon balancer, green deer food, grain deer food, fungal health, water retainer, nitrogen scavenger etc.
I'm just waiting until technology manufactures a reasonably priced drone big enough to seed 100 lbs of fall rye, wheat, and/or clover into my standing soybeans or corn in early September. This would be the holy grail of wildlife foodplotting, having the ability to let winter crops stand for deer, with a late summer grain component inter-seeded into it, which then grows into straw the following spring, and gets rolled, and the next seeding notilled into it. Farmers generally don't have this problem with seeding because they remove their corn or beans early enough in the fall to conventionally seed a cover crop with driving down substantial amounts of corn and beans.

 

[buckhunter10]

I like that you mention straw. If soil improvement has a magic bullet it's straw, and for most of us in reasonable climes straw is not something you buy, it's too easy to grow your own, often as a double crop or a companion crop.
I try to grow straw in most of my fields once a year, often throw n mow into clover in late summer, notilled into clover in early spring, a component of a fall brassica plot, or by driving through beans and corn with a tractor and spinner.
Benefits: Erosion control, OM builder, carbon balancer, green deer food, grain deer food, fungal health, water retainer, nitrogen scavenger etc.
I'm just waiting until technology manufactures a reasonably priced drone big enough to seed 100 lbs of fall rye, wheat, and/or clover into my standing soybeans or corn in early September. This would be the holy grail of wildlife foodplotting, having the ability to let winter crops stand for deer, with a late summer grain component inter-seeded into it, which then grows into straw the following spring, and gets rolled, and the next seeding notilled into it. Farmers generally don't have this problem with seeding because they remove their corn or beans early enough in the fall to conventionally seed a cover crop with driving down substantial amounts of corn and beans.

absolutely!! I couldn’t agree more buddy!!

My fall mix
Rye
Oats
WW
Triticale
Clovers
Brassicas
Vetch
Buckwheat

all balanced (help of local seed mill). I actually seeded directly into this spring and have buckwheat, sunflower, medium red and spring oats coming up through it. I’ll either mow or spray it off come August, still deciding. Thinking about trying fulvic acid as an additional chelating agent with the GLY, some amazing research on that stuff.

with my garden I mow off and continue to mow between the rows. I am super happy with how it’s worked so far, I have constant root exudates being pumped by inter seeded crops photosynthesizing and every time I mow, some new thatch being laid down. Although, lower CtoN as it’s immature rye, and clover tops. Still is suppressing weeds well.

I’m really happy with the thatch I created last year on plots just by allowing the heavy seeded grains to mature and the terminate. It really worked well!!

 

[buckhunter10]

Just an update on the no-till garden. Very happy with the results, especially with the cold/wet Spring/Summer thus far.

 

[buckhunter10]

So much rain in Ohio! Here is a video I did to show how growing cover can slow down/eliminate erosion.
Happy Sunday!

 

[buckhunter10]

Well boys I got 10 acres in on Saturday and it rained Sunday afternoon.

Dew has been heavy and I suspect we’ll see decent germination.

I sprayed these plots off with
1qt per acre gly
Ams
Humic acid
And fish fert.
(I did an experiment with marestale and the above mix and I was shocked to see it killed - as it’s often thought to be RR. I believe between the high CEC of the humic acid allowing better absorption of the herbicide combined with the N sources it was able to stop the pathway that allows the marestale to photosynthesize).

I allowed the fields 5 hours of dry time. I then seeded my mix into the standing thatch.

I did an experiment where my buddy mowed off the thick rye areas on a few fields Sunday morning to aid in feeding the microbes. I also left several fields alone to compare results.

All in all - a great day the tractor and was grateful to finish up around 930pm. Thank goodness for headlights.

My mix - thank you to MERIT seed for helping me balance this at the correct ratios.
Oats
Rye
Triticale
Wheat
Blansa clover
Buckwheat
Hairy vetch
Crimson clover
Daikon radish
Frosty berseem clover
Medium red clover
Purple top turnip
barley
fixation clover
kale
chicory
forage rape

 

[buckhunter10]

Well on HighPoint - pictured above. I killed a 5+ year old short G2 10 pt. I passed this same deer, 2 years ago, to the date out of the same stand!

 

[George]

Congratulations buck.

G

 

[Elkaddict]

Awesome buck, congratulations!