NYS Tree Farm Program 480-A and the fee to develop the Forestry Plan

[CTM1]

I briefly touched upon this topic last year on the other site but got side tracked. Given my tax burden on my 150 acres I am interested in enrolling it into the program. I spoke with a guy who formulates forestry plans that gets submitted to the DEC some weeks ago, but he is now telling me that I missed the deadline for the 2017 filing which was Dec 31st. This man told me to reach out to someone at the DEC in m area and ask for an extension which I have done. The fella at the DEC followed up and told me that he would try but could not guarantee they could get in processed in time but that he would try.

My current tax burden on the property is about $3,700 for vacant land (you have to love NYS) and I have been told by the forester that I could save $2,300 by enrolling. I know two people who are enrolled in this program via this same forester, one being a neighbor. Unfortunately neither are available to speak with and won't be for some time. As I recall one paid approx $400 for the forester to develop the plan for his 105 acres which had multiple structures, not sure what the other guy paid for his 200 acres. The forester told me today that to develop the plan would cost $2,000. Based on what the neighbor paid I was shocked to hear $2k and am wondering if I am getting played. The fella at the DEC did not think it was out of line and might reflect the timeline crunch to get it in if they can give an extension.

Any thoughts from others about the $2k fee or any other thoughts about the program. I am aware of the penalties and the DEC fella also conveyed them to me as well.

Thanks

 

[Kabic]

If you can save $2300 in your first year by spending $2000 you are still money ahead after the first year.

 

[Elkaddict]

The $2000 number is consistent with what a friend of mine paid in the Catskills (it was roughly the cost of one year's savings). One question I would suggest you pose early on is whether the program would limit substantial hinge cutting. This has been the single most important habitat work we have done. I believe some would view it as both inconsistent with a tree farm and a fire hazzard. Please share what you learn. I'd also want to understand what legal right the program would give state employees to enter the propert without notice.

 

[CTM1]

If you can save $2300 in your first year by spending $2000 you are still money ahead after the first year.

I hear you, but I have an aversion to parting with that kind of money for someone to spend a few hours walking the property and then conveying what trees will be cut and when. I am one of those people who likes to apply an hourly rate to something when I am paying and I just cannot get to $2k for this work. Then again I might be entirely wrong on this, but I spent a career doing contracts and always found contracts with fixed prices to be to the benefit of the person providing the service.

 

[CTM1]

The $2000 number is consistent with what a friend of mine paid in the Catskills (it was roughly the cost of one year's savings). One question I would suggest you pose early on is whether the program would limit substantial hinge cutting. This has been the single most important habitat work we have done. I believe some would view it as both inconsistent with a tree farm and a fire hazzard. Please share what you learn. I'd also want to understand what legal right the program would give state employees to enter the propert without notice.

The program only provides the tax exemption for forested areas, so a meadow, a field and my food plots are excluded. It would be interesting to learn how they would perceive an area that is hinged cut. Part of the program allows you to take up to ten cords of firewood per year, but according to some information I was given a private forester or a DEC forester must mark the trees to be cut. Not sure my areas DEC forester would provide that service, but I know the private forester charges $55 per acre to mark trees for thinning etc. One thing I think I am coming to understand is that my property does not really have bedding areas. I was hoping a 25 acre section that I have only been in three times over the last couple of years in the summer would serve that purpose, but I am just not seeing them come from that direction.

As far as access for State employees that is an interesting question and one that I will certainly inquire about.

I will post any additional details that come my way.

Thanks

 

[Chainsaw]

The best deal if you qualify is to list the property as Agricultural--no forester needed and taxes are fair. Feel free to contact me thru general discussions; I've been down this 480-A road and it was money very much wasted.

 

[CTM1]

The best deal if you qualify is to list the property as Agricultural--no forester needed and taxes are fair. Feel free to contact me thru general discussions; I've been down this 480-A road and it was money very much wasted.

Can you convey some of the financial pitfalls that you experienced by being in the program. Maybe I am naive as to all of the facets of the program, but I was simply viewing it as let the land do what it does and that is growing trees to harvest them at the appropriate time to make a few bucks while getting a tax reduction. I cringe at the thought of this forester telling me that I have to thin my 150acres at a cost of $55 per acre to mark as that certainly does not fit into the budget. In fact something like that would bring me to conclude that I would see no upside for years.

 

[Chainsaw]

Can you convey some of the financial pitfalls that you experienced by being in the program. Maybe I am naive as to all of the facets of the program, but I was simply viewing it as let the land do what it does and that is growing trees to harvest them at the appropriate time to make a few bucks while getting a tax reduction. I cringe at the thought of this forester telling me that I have to thin my 150acres at a cost of $55 per acre to mark as that certainly does not fit into the budget. In fact something like that would bring me to conclude that I would see no upside for years.

Sure CTM1, I never did get in the program. After spending $1500 to a forester to have a plan made ( a good plan but one that I could have made just as well in three days or so but the program does not allow me the common landowner to do it or at least it didn't then) and waiting two months for a DEC review of a ten page plan the DEC came back with--Your goals are unclear and you now have missed the deadline for submission;you will need to wait a year for another shot at it. This alone told me this was a NO-DEAL for me. They basically were demanding that they were in charge of MY LAND. I reviewed and approved others people plans and goals for a living-different business. My goals were absolutely concrete and specific; I know goal setting better than them bureaucrats ever did. In any event when you want goals redefined it doesn't take two months to provide feedback like that--more like three days. One of the quick looks when reviewing a plan is are the goals specific and measurable--If not return plan immediately asking for more measurable goals.

Then I find out I have to pay them back basically for taxes saved when I sell the timber. And they get to approve every move I make along the way. I aborted the plan and discarded any ideas of working with the government. I bought the land with my money and they wanted to tell me what I could or could not do--That was just completely unacceptable.
I now rent part of my tillable land to a farmer who helps feed the deer and pay the taxes and that's that--no 480A here.
The forester charging $55 per acre may or may not be appropriate but I surely would not pay that. You can learn how to do it yourself if you have time. It is not rocket science and education is free or close to it all around us here in NY. Feel free to contact me directly and I'll provide my e-mail and phone # to discuss if you'd like.

EDIT-I'd like to add one more comment--a forester telling you what you will save does not sound right to me. If a plan hasn't already been done than how could a forester know that. And even once the plan is done only the assessor can tell one what they could save.

 

[Buckly]

I think very few people get in this program. In the long run it's just the States way of making sure they get their money for the timber. I have heard horror stories also of assessors not liking this program and they keep upping your assessment over the 10 years. You end up paying the same taxes and you're tied up in a government program. Ag is the way to go if you can get it, else it's just my opinion that the less the State knows about your stuff the better. This program seems to completely favor the State

 

[CTM1]

As I understand it the only fee that any Gov't entity receives is the county, and that is 6% in sales tax based on the total harvest sale.

My county like many other counties has annual increases in taxes, but they do not make changes to assessments unless their is a change in the properties status, such as a sale or the addition of a structure etc. As an example I bought two pieces when a larger parcel was broken up. At that point the town made a money grab and a significant money grab I must say, the new tax was based off the new sale price. I contested it based on unequal assessment. They wound up trimming a few thousand off my assessment but it still represented a huge increase in taxes. The insane thing was the sellers kept one track and the county decided to reassess that parcel based off of what I paid and raised their taxes as well. So the neighbors around us are paying substantially less then we are now. So I and the neighbor will be paying a higher percentage in taxes for as long as we own the property as compared to the neighbors as long as those neighbors never have a change in the status of their property. The entire process just seems like a total scam.

Two of the larger lands owners near me are in the program so I am hoping to get a chance to speak with them to pick their brain as the pros and cons.

 

[Buckly]

I'm just giving you my opinion and those of which I have heard. You can bet changing from vacant to forest will be a status change the assessor will take to a new level. Don't forget income tax. I know in my situation when I looked it over I would have lost money and it wasn't going to be worth it. I think Chainsaw is right that they get all that tax saving back at the forced timber sale you are required to make in those 10 years. What happens if the market takes a dive and you wanted to hold on to the timber for some more years. I didn't like the forced timber sale and the State was way too much into my affairs! How much is the assessment reduction? I was thinking it was 25% not sure though. I would really read it over and over. In my County I think there are only 2 people that have done one.

 

[Chainsaw]

CTM1, I hate unfair assessments and have been the victim of such attempts in the past. So I did a google search of chasing the sales assessments and from what I can see it is illegal. "Chasing the sale" is the type of assessment you are getting and it appears to be illegal. I would go to the assessor and request the form needed to take the town to court. He or she must provide it to you;it is law. I have done it and reasonableness from the assessors suddenly became the MO. Do the search and check it out. You are right; IT IS A SCAM!

 

[Bowhunter]

Very interesting thread as I was looking to do this myself. Not so sure I am now after reading everyone's comments.

 

[CTM1]

I'm just giving you my opinion and those of which I have heard. You can bet changing from vacant to forest will be a status change the assessor will take to a new level. Don't forget income tax. I know in my situation when I looked it over I would have lost money and it wasn't going to be worth it. I think Chainsaw is right that they get all that tax saving back at the forced timber sale you are required to make in those 10 years. What happens if the market takes a dive and you wanted to hold on to the timber for some more years. I didn't like the forced timber sale and the State was way too much into my affairs! How much is the assessment reduction? I was thinking it was 25% not sure though. I would really read it over and over. In my County I think there are only 2 people that have done one.

My property code will not change as a result of entering the program so my assessment will not go up. I will simply be subjected to any other property tax increase just like any other property owner. The program actually reduces your assessment by up to 80% on your forested land. That is why I will see a reduction in property taxes of $2,300, which is huge for me.

As far as income tax goes, that of course is a given as I would be earning income from the harvesting of the timber.
Not sure I am following the statement of the state getting all tax savings back at the forced sale of the timber. I get a reduction in property for complying with the plan that my forester puts forth, the plan that the land owner agrees to before it goes to the state. If the state rejects it or wants major changes to it then the land owner can chose to reject the counter plan from the state.

As far as the other things about being forced to sell at a certain time, again it is all based on your approved plan. No different then any other contract it is a give and take and the terms are laid out for both sides at the beginning.

The forester is heading to the property next week to walk it and he will let me know his thoughts. Once I have that him and I can go from there.

 

[CTM1]

CTM1, I hate unfair assessments and have been the victim of such attempts in the past. So I did a google search of chasing the sales assessments and from what I can see it is illegal. "Chasing the sale" is the type of assessment you are getting and it appears to be illegal. I would go to the assessor and request the form needed to take the town to court. He or she must provide it to you;it is law. I have done it and reasonableness from the assessors suddenly became the MO. Do the search and check it out. You are right; IT IS A SCAM!

Chainsaw, I had never heard the term "Chasing the sale" as it relates to increasing assessments, so as you suggested I looked it up and found it very interesting and will certainly do more research on it. Thanks

Here is a crazy one for you. I purchased my neighbors house and adjoining separate 2acre parcel for $20k less then what the assessors office had just the house listed at. I would have though this would have prompted an immediate reduction in what they had the market value listed at, thus my assessment leading to a reduction in the taxes, but it did not. So that is another battle I have to fight with a different township. You have to love it when the man makes an automatic money grab but not an automatic reduction.

 

[CTM1]

Very interesting thread as I was looking to do this myself. Not so sure I am now after reading everyone's comments.

As with anything in life the benefits to one may not make sense for another, but I would not dismiss the program until you vetted it completely.

Here is a link to the fella I am working with. You can read the various links he has.
http://www.northeasttimberservices.com/

 

[Buckly]

I wouldn't say I know every detail but I did look into it closely. I believe you must do a timber sale within 10 years. You do get a reduction in assessment but I'm pretty sure the State gets a big cut from the sale. Either way, the program is out there and I hope it works out for you. I just don't see anybody doing them and that tells me something. Keep us updated.

 

[Buckly]

Chainsaw, I had never heard the term "Chasing the sale" as it relates to increasing assessments, so as you suggested I looked it up and found it very interesting and will certainly do more research on it. Thanks

Here is a crazy one for you. I purchased my neighbors house and adjoining separate 2acre parcel for $20k less then what the assessors office had just the house listed at. I would have though this would have prompted an immediate reduction in what they had the market value listed at, thus my assessment leading to a reduction in the taxes, but it did not. So that is another battle I have to fight with a different township. You have to love it when the man makes an automatic money grab but not an automatic reduction.

Here's one also. I did a land swap with the neighbor just to square up the property lines. The property in question was assessed at the same as the rest of the property 700 an acre. This deal was less than an acre. I gave him 1/2 acre and he gave me 160ft X 143ft. Keep in mind this was assessed at 700 an acre. The assessor put my new 160 x 143ft parcel at $1500 and raised the neighbors assessment $3000 for that 1/2 acre. If you complain as I found out he will come out and re assess your house and property and you will end up on the losing end. Something to look out for if you know what I mean.
And another. I bought 15 acres of swamp from a neighbor. All wet ground not buildable. It was assessed at 5,400. I bought it for 7,500. They immediately raised it to 7,500 then 3 years later raised it to 15000. After complaining they lowered it to 10,000. They have the ultimate power, and with our tax rate at $42 a thousand all this re assessment isn't chump change .

 

[Chainsaw]

My property code will not change as a result of entering the program so my assessment will not go up. I will simply be subjected to any other property tax increase just like any other property owner. The program actually reduces your assessment by up to 80% on your forested land. That is why I will see a reduction in property taxes of $2,300, which is huge for me.

As far as income tax goes, that of course is a given as I would be earning income from the harvesting of the timber.
Not sure I am following the statement of the state getting all tax savings back at the forced sale of the timber. I get a reduction in property for complying with the plan that my forester puts forth, the plan that the land owner agrees to before it goes to the state. If the state rejects it or wants major changes to it then the land owner can chose to reject the counter plan from the state.

As far as the other things about being forced to sell at a certain time, again it is all based on your approved plan. No different then any other contract it is a give and take and the terms are laid out for both sides at the beginning.

The forester is heading to the property next week to walk it and he will let me know his thoughts. Once I have that him and I can go from there.

I hope you make out well. One of they key confusions is only forested land counts. Forested land doesn't simply mean land made up of woods but land with a certain per acre stem count that hasn't been cut in a certain number of years and has a certain DBH average. That's just a little detail but it matters if half of your "forest" doesn't meet their definition and a $2,000 plan only includes a few acres.

One thing in your favor, at least your foresters website is very professional. We certainly can't put him in the "dud" list with a website like that. It doesn't tell us everything about him but it is an excellent start. I have learned that every level of the forest industry has both scam artists and honest to goodness hard working people. We as landowners must be cautious that we end up working with good hardworking honest people at each level of the game or we lose big time.
I look forward to your foresters recommendation.

 

[Chainsaw]

Here's one also. I did a land swap with the neighbor just to square up the property lines. The property in question was assessed at the same as the rest of the property 700 an acre. This deal was less than an acre. I gave him 1/2 acre and he gave me 160ft X 143ft. Keep in mind this was assessed at 700 an acre. The assessor put my new 160 x 143ft parcel at $1500 and raised the neighbors assessment $3000 for that 1/2 acre. If you complain as I found out he will come out and re assess your house and property and you will end up on the losing end. Something to look out for if you know what I mean.
And another. I bought 15 acres of swamp from a neighbor. All wet ground not buildable. It was assessed at 5,400. I bought it for 7,500. They immediately raised it to 7,500 then 3 years later raised it to 15000. After complaining they lowered it to 10,000. They have the ultimate power, and with our tax rate at $42 a thousand all this re assessment isn't chump change .

That is just terrible Buckly! It is a game they play on us especially those of us "from away";we can play the same game. Because I am retired and have time I would play back. I would find a similar property in town that was valued as wasteland ($200 an acre or so). I'd take pictures. Show how I tried to turn it into farmland--too many rocks , too much underwater etc. and how I got cheated when I bought it and go to the soil and water people and request they reclassify it as wasteland. If it truly is such it should be easy to reclassify that and then the assessor has to price it accordingly. How much you paid does not define a lands value.

The hours involved to fight these things are huge but it can be done. There are laws and rules for assessing that should be being followed. Most assessors do such. A few still go the old way and set prices as they see fit. That is not their job nor their authority to do so and we can fight back and even get a fair shake eventually.