How do you all determine - Doe Harvest?

[buckhunter10]

This year we have noticed our doe numbers are increased significantly. We have seen our plots browsed, deer pictures have increased, etc.

A few items to note:
1. We have 232 acres in Ohio
2. You can bait in Ohio and my neighbors bait/as do I
3. My neighbors have stated they see 10+ does at a feeder at a time. We are seeing 3,4,9 does on camera at a time and many times we see them all at the same time on different cameras.

All this being said, my plots are still not being totally eaten down. So am I providing enough food still for all the deer? Do you need to plant more food? Any way to know if the deer are leaving our farm to go to another for food?

some trails

deer trails

Plot pictures

 

[Native Hunter]

My thoughts on your questions:

1. Even though you have a nice sized place, deer are leaving at times. Deer will not stay on only 232 acres. And, they will be eating at other places they go.
2. Your plots are likely a much smaller percentage of the deer diets than you think. Plots are great, but the deer are eating much more natural foods that you imagine.
3. You might try putting out some more plots with some variety. I see some turnips in your picture. In some areas turnips are eaten well and not in others. However, cereal grains seem to be eaten well almost everywhere. If you have quite a bit of cereal grains left over you are probably providing enough food. I mix brassicas and grains. All of the grains get eaten but all the brassicas don't.

Best wishes....

 

[Chainsaw]

If we have doe groups in the fall of two to four, our resident population is not so high for the food our property produces. When those doe groups grow to six or eight, that is pushing it here for what the property supports easily. If the deer are out feeding at 1 pm each day during the fall that again is a huge hint there are quite a few too many deer. The final word though is the browse survey done in late March/early to mid April. If the normally eaten browse is eaten to only twenty percent or less left, there are way too many does. Every property of course though is different. But then, I'm surmising from deer seen today that today we had 90 or so deer feeding on our 600 acres; only half of them will be here in non-winter times. This is up from 64 last winter. All of the extra winter immigrants will cause our spring browse surveys to be off the charts and it won't necessarily mean there are too many resident does.

We can not afford a wall so we just need to stay calm and not go shooting off all of our full time deer to make room for the winter travelers as has been done in different parts of the country.

So if you do not have a fall migration to your property, the spring browse survey answers your question easily as to whether you have too many deer or not. If you have a winter migration that is eating your property beyond repair, it is another matter.

Note; remember we are in snow country. Thirty-five acres of Grains feed the deer completely OK until the snow exceeds three or four feet. If your snow does not preclude eating in the grain fields assuming you have them you can handle a lot more deer than we can.

 

[X-farmerdan]

There are some "rules-of-thumb" about how many acres of food plot are 'needed' in relation to habitat area to support a specific population. With any certainty I can't say if they have any value. Much of it depends on the quality AND quantity of of your non-food plot acres.

Halfway down the page you'll find some guidance
http://www.tecomate.com/content/index.php/site/comments/laying_out_your_food_plots_part_i/

Ideally we'd make an inventory of the types and quality of land cover. Use it to make some estimate of carrying capacity.

I still like Cropscape to "look" at land cover types in a certain radius of my area of interest. If you can figure it out, get some numbers for a half mile radius, three quarter mile and one mile. The acres don't address quality, but it's a start. If the land use -- the whitetail habitat -- gets better as you move further from your ground center, that's a clue!

Cropscape:
https://nassgeodata.gmu.edu/CropScape/

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Research_and_Science/Cropland/sarsfaqs2.php

 

[j-bird]

Exclusion cages in your plots can tell you just what the deer are eating and if you need more. Doing a browse survey can also give you an idea if you have too many deer as well. Cam pics, pellet counts and just watching the browsing on native plants and your plots can all point you in a general direction. As much as we all have any more deer the habitat can only support so many.

 

[buckhunter10]

thanks for the responses guys- some great information.

Some of the information I have noticed/gathered over the past couple years
1. We used to see 2-3 does in pictures at a time, now we are seeing 9 at a time
2. I am noticing that Ill have does on every camera at the same time, then my neighbor is telling me he has 10-12 every night as well on his cameras - which would mean we are well over 20+ does that we are seeing between our two farms (350+/- acres) at the same time.
3. I am noticing areas around the farm that have been browsed much harder then any time in the last 4-5 years.
4. Around our farm there is 0 AG. We are in timber/cow country. Part of our farm was in a big clear cut about 5 years ago. Another 300 acres next two us is just a nasty thicket and super thick brush.
5. Below one of the exclusion fences - beans from earlier this year
6. Also all my plots have/had grains in them, they are basically eaten to about the length of 3-4inchs from ground only. Many brassicas are eaten already and our gone.

 

[cutman]

I base doe harvest off of historical data and seasonal observation. Years ago we would kill 20 deer on a 300 acre farm, and the hunting would be terrible in November/December. That was too many deer. Now I try to kill 5-8 deer off the farm with only 1 or 2 of those being bucks.

If I see lots of does/fawns early season, I will shoot more late season. If I see that my buck:doe ratio is out of whack on trail camera surveys, I will shoot more does.

I try not to base long term decisions on small sample size observation though. For example, last year I went hunting right after a hurricane blew through. All my corn fields were blown over, and I saw 20+ does/fawns and only 1 buck in those corn fields. However, in another stand it’s not uncommon to see 10 bucks and no does. Those two hunts are obviously opposite ends of the spectrum and not representative of the whole population.

 

[dogghr]

This is easy Buck. I remember that you have adjacent clearcuts or heavy timbering on hundreds of acres in the last 5 years. Ample food, good cover, and low doe harvest, mild winters until this year, and your herd has exploded. Typical heavy logging produces its best deer habitat from year 2-7. Now you have a delema. Shoot more doe, or let your herd expand, or wait till the predators move in to accomplish what you may choose not to do. With an exploding herd, you cannot plant enough plots in a non ag area to accomadate the numbers. It's a problem, but can be better to address too many than too few. I know how this pans out over the years but I won't be so graphic. Just follow WVs process, it takes a lot of factors to control.

 

[SwampCat]

Also consider what your neighbors kill. If you have a lot of food plots and your neighbors dont - you may be pulling a lot of their deer and give a false impression of the general area. During season, it is not uncommon for three of us to see 30 or more deer in a morning - on 300 acres. All of those deer are not permanent residents - they are coming from my neighbors property to my food plots. My neighbors are not bashful about shooting does. Knowing that, we dont shoot any does so that the neighbors can keep shooting them and not affect the population. I can go a mile from my place though and rarely see a deer. A lot of dynamics to consider. Conservatively approach your doe harvest. It is MUCH easier to shoot them down than get them back. I have never witnessed too many deer - I have witnessed too few.

 

[buckhunter10]

All great points guys.

Right now the neighbors havent shot any does nearest me, however I know the neighbors behidn me and the Amish near me shoot several!

However this year on 600+ acres, I know of one does being shot. My farm does pull deer but I just dont/cant feed like some of my neighbors so I know that I am only holding some deer.

My one neighbor feeds 1200lbs of feed a week.

During gun season I sat all day and saw 12 different does - not a buck. My uncle saw 17 different does and a few bucks.

I have a hard time "hammering does" I like shooting them but probably will only kill 1 or two off the farm next year. I rather have too many deer then too little, it seems like an easy problem, just plant more food.

Last item - we recently acquired the 170 acres of our farm and this has barley been hunted. I plant to put in several acres of food there this coming year on the flat ridges next to the thick bedding areas. I am hoping that I will be pulling in many more deer from the surrounding areas as well.

 

[j-bird]

Just remember that once those numbers get to a point keeping them in check may become difficult and can/will damage the habitat. I personally would prefer to have deer below the carrying capacity if possible.....this protects the habitat and it's easier to allow the herd to expand vs knocking it back in my opinion. Knocking it back means you have to potentially shoot more deer than you have a true need for. If all them does produce just a single fawn come hunting season.....consider how many mouths you now have to contend with! If the herd is growing based on your current practices, then you are going to have to increase the doe harvest to at least try to stabilize it.

 

[SwampCat]

All great points guys.

Right now the neighbors havent shot any does nearest me, however I know the neighbors behidn me and the Amish near me shoot several!

However this year on 600+ acres, I know of one does being shot. My farm does pull deer but I just dont/cant feed like some of my neighbors so I know that I am only holding some deer.

My one neighbor feeds 1200lbs of feed a week.

During gun season I sat all day and saw 12 different does - not a buck. My uncle saw 17 different does and a few bucks.

I have a hard time "hammering does" I like shooting them but probably will only kill 1 or two off the farm next year. I rather have too many deer then too little, it seems like an easy problem, just plant more food.

Last item - we recently acquired the 170 acres of our farm and this has barley been hunted. I plant to put in several acres of food there this coming year on the flat ridges next to the thick bedding areas. I am hoping that I will be pulling in many more deer from the surrounding areas as well.

I think if you only shoot one or two does, your are going to be fine. I have 300 acres and 22 acres of food plots on that land and they have eaten the food plots to the ground by now - and my winters are not nearly as severe as yours. I would take a guess that my ground is being utilized by maybe 50 deer. Of course, they don't stay on my land all the time - so I am not feeding that many deer full time. None of my neighbors provide food plots. A few do have corn feeders - but they don't run them this time of year.

 

[Mennoniteman]

All great points guys.

Right now the neighbors havent shot any does nearest me, however I know the neighbors behidn me and the Amish near me shoot several!

However this year on 600+ acres, I know of one does being shot. My farm does pull deer but I just dont/cant feed like some of my neighbors so I know that I am only holding some deer.

My one neighbor feeds 1200lbs of feed a week.

During gun season I sat all day and saw 12 different does - not a buck. My uncle saw 17 different does and a few bucks.

I have a hard time "hammering does" I like shooting them but probably will only kill 1 or two off the farm next year. I rather have too many deer then too little, it seems like an easy problem, just plant more food.

Last item - we recently acquired the 170 acres of our farm and this has barley been hunted. I plant to put in several acres of food there this coming year on the flat ridges next to the thick bedding areas. I am hoping that I will be pulling in many more deer from the surrounding areas as well.

I'm guessing that your "Amish" shoot more than several deer, I know how those guys hunt... They are very efficient at keeping the deer numbers down wherever they can get in to hunt.

 

[buckhunter10]

I'm guessing that your "Amish" shoot more than several deer, I know how those guys hunt... They are very efficient at keeping the deer numbers down wherever they can get in to hunt.

They used to kill a lot more when it was row pines. They dont kill as many now where they are unable to drive hunt it. The one section across from our farm is 330acres of clear cut, one guy has permission to hunt that ground. That is why I said off my farm, the 2 neighbors below me (230,40,110 and the across the road neighbor 330) there was one doe killed on 710 acres. Now the neighbors around that area without a doubt hammer deer but the Amish hunt on say several hundrered as I know the one old man owns 200+ and his family owns all around him as well. It is a fairly rural area with not a lot of hunters per sq mile.

My biggest fear is over harvesting, my second biggest fear is allowing that fear to not allow me to harvest enough causing way TOO many deer to be around and not have any REGEN due to the lack of harvest.

 

[X-farmerdan]

thanks for the responses guys- some great information.

Some of the information I have noticed/gathered over the past couple years
1. We used to see 2-3 does in pictures at a time, now we are seeing 9 at a time
2. I am noticing that Ill have does on every camera at the same time, then my neighbor is telling me he has 10-12 every night as well on his cameras - which would mean we are well over 20+ does that we are seeing between our two farms (350+/- acres) at the same time.
3. I am noticing areas around the farm that have been browsed much harder then any time in the last 4-5 years.
4. Around our farm there is 0 AG. We are in timber/cow country. Part of our farm was in a big clear cut about 5 years ago. Another 300 acres next two us is just a nasty thicket and super thick brush.
5. Below one of the exclusion fences - beans from earlier this year
6. Also all my plots have/had grains in them, they are basically eaten to about the length of 3-4inchs from ground only. Many brassicas are eaten already and our gone.

View attachment 11066

I like numbers. I don't like assumptions, but that's all we have when it comes to whitetail populations. If only we had the resources of the United States Census!

I'm going to make some assumptions and offer some assertions. You'll need to decide if they are reasonable.
Over the years, here's what I've learned.

In a mature forest you might find 3 - 9 deer per square mile. Early succession forest 12 - 20 per square mile. Mix that with some cropland and you might end up with 30+ deer per square mile. Lots of people talk about 50 and maybe even a hundred. Maybe, but I think we either overestimate population when we see lots of deer and underestimate when we see too few.

I don't know what your habitat is like, but let's assume a decent supportable population n your area is 25 to 30.

So, just accepting your numbers as gospel....20 does on 350 acres might put the population at something like 40 does per square mile (640 acres). Buck to doe ratio? It sounds like yours might be out of wack? Just for kicks and giggles let's assume its 4:1. So you have 10 bucks plus 40 does and we'll assume that's at the end of the hunting season. Now those 40 does will have 1.34 fawns reduced to 0.98 that survive. By summer your population is 40 does, 38 fawns, and 10 bucks assuming no other tragedies befall the population.

How many deer do you need to kill to keep the population at 50?

Pretty simple. Something around 40?

Here come the tragedies. About 10 or 11 are going to die of disease, poaching, old age, car - deer collisions, and other dangers unrelated to hunting. Now we have 30 to kill. Some of the youngsters are going to get pushed off into new territory and given your perceived population there won't be many getting pushed in. Lets say 8 yearling bucks get told to get lost. Now we target 22 (30 - 8).

Here comes the deer season. It seems reasonable to me that this one square mile area has 22 too many deer - 77 in total. And I'm thinking the idea of 50 deer per square mile is destructive to habitat.

You have half the acreage in my fantasy square mile. Seems to me you could drop 10 - 15 and not hurt yourself....unless the neighbors are killing 30 or 40.

Anyhow, use what you think are reasonable numbers and build your own fantasy!

And I welcome discussion and dissention!

 

[SwampCat]

I have a somewhat similar situation as far as my own property. I often have 50 deer using my 300 acre property. But, I know they dont just stay on my property, either. My property has the best winter food source around - so I draw deer from quite a distance. I can go a mile away and not see a deer in a week of hunting. Dont know if that is the same situation with OP or not. My fawn recruitmt numbers are not nearly as high.

 

[farmhunter]

Good analysis X-Farmerdan - I think 40 deer/square mile is pretty high in the north for sure - we see it here in lots of places where the farmland has grown over - and winters keep that number in check if we don't.

We have a similar situation in that the neighboring 500 acres - not many does are taken by hunters. This year they took one.
So we often see 15-20 deer - in their fields - sometimes in the middle of the day. so, we do our part and we take plenty of does and pass young bucks. we took 9 mature does on 180 acres this year. The last doe I took - I saw 18 does and fawns come into our field (beans- we have better food) - if we are careful, we can draw a lot of deer from the surrounding land.

so - all good in our minds - we have too many deer overall, and we know it.

Our question is: lets assume 2/3 of the does we take are resident - does the void we create by taking those resident mature does encourage the fawns to stay, or do some of the deer on the over populated neighboring property move over a 1/4 mile? I've read about the rose petal theory of doe family groups - so I understand that they do not disperse like bucks do - but will they move a little to fill the voids? Or does both/neither happen?

Ultimately - we have good feel for the population and if we see a LOT of fawns - we take more does - A bad year here happens 1 or 2 times every 10 years - and there is winter kill around here.

 

[buckhunter10]

This is all great information. I think one of the items that makes it hard to determine the doe population are below

1. We see the browse (even on trails I notice woody browse much more heavy this year, then in years past)
2. As you see above we see the plots (brassicas,rye, clovers, beans) - eaten very hard.
3. LOTS of trail camera pictures

However - we normally only see 2-4 does on trail camera at a time. Now we will see them all night every night and every camera over every plot will have 2-4 at the same time (typically) but we are not seeing what many of yall describe when you say you see 15-20 entering a field at a time.

Due to this it seems that it makes us much more hesitant on shooting does. Now we are in Appalachia, 0 to no AG around, and heavy forest/cow pastures with a few small openings here and there (pipeline right aways, etc.).

 

[X-farmerdan]

Thank you farmhunter. Its always nice to hear...
Your question is an interesting one - without a definitive answer. I tend to look toward the science and what we have are deer movement studies, few that there are.

What I've learned, and it will be no surprise, is deer are territorial, but not aggressively so. Second deer do move, but they seem to end-up back in their home areas. There are always exceptions but collared does have primarily stayed in a half to three-quarter mile area from home.

That makes the theory of "flies" difficult to apply here. If you have a hundred flies in your house and kill them all, within a couple hours a hundred have taken the place of the dead ones.

But, yes, over a period of two or three years I think it's likely the voids will be filled at least marginally by other does/deer moving from outside and into YOUR home hunting area.

One more thing. We tend to look at our hunting land - a hundred acres, 200, 500. But, deer don't recognize those boundaries. They go where they want to go. In thinking about habitat don't we need to think about it in terms of how far a doe or a buck will travel? If so, then we need to come to an understanding of everything around us - as far as the eye can see.

Understanding the land cover from the deers perspective, isn't this then a competition to provide the best cover and/or the best food sources in the area? Eventually, if you're good all the deer end up on your hundred (in theory).

And that leads to another question. This is pointed toward no one. It's just my coffee has me on overdrive, I guess. So you can kill a lot of deer and not hurt your hunting experience, but what obligation do you have to keep balance in a broader area that reaches beyond your property?

I hear a lot about property rights, but I think it also comes with some ethical dilemmas and obligations!

Happy days!

 

[SwampCat]

Thank you farmhunter. Its always nice to hear...
Your question is an interesting one - without a definitive answer. I tend to look toward the science and what we have are deer movement studies, few that there are.

What I've learned, and it will be no surprise, is deer are territorial, but not aggressively so. Second deer do move, but they seem to end-up back in their home areas. There are always exceptions but collared does have primarily stayed in a half to three-quarter mile area from home.

That makes the theory of "flies" difficult to apply here. If you have a hundred flies in your house and kill them all, within a couple hours a hundred have taken the place of the dead ones.

But, yes, over a period of two or three years I think it's likely the voids will be filled at least marginally by other does/deer moving from outside and into YOUR home hunting area.

One more thing. We tend to look at our hunting land - a hundred acres, 200, 500. But, deer don't recognize those boundaries. They go where they want to go. In thinking about habitat don't we need to think about it in terms of how far a doe or a buck will travel? If so, then we need to come to an understanding of everything around us - as far as the eye can see.

Understanding the land cover from the deers perspective, isn't this then a competition to provide the best cover and/or the best food sources in the area? Eventually, if you're good all the deer end up on your hundred (in theory).

And that leads to another question. This is pointed toward no one. It's just my coffee has me on overdrive, I guess. So you can kill a lot of deer and not hurt your hunting experience, but what obligation do you have to keep balance in a broader area that reaches beyond your property?

I hear a lot about property rights, but I think it also comes with some ethical dilemmas and obligations!

Happy days!

I own 300 acres and at times, probably have 50 deer using my 300 acres. I have the only food plots in the area and attract a lot of deer. I have numerous small acreage landowners - 10 - 40 acres - within 1/4 mile of my property. A lot of them will take a doe or two. We have a 3 pt antler restriction on one side - we have no restriction on the does other than a four doe bag limit. We are pretty well assured almost half the bucks will be protected by the restriction. We are not assured every doe will not be killed. Statewide, fawn recruitment numbers are less than .5. We dont shoot does on our 300 acres because we know our neighbors are going to take more than their share.