Dogghr's Theory of Random Clusters or Hinge Cutting Manipulation

[dogghr]

My western property line ridge is covered with mfr, fairly innocuous unless you are a streaker. Looking around I found about every stalk to be browsed and seemingly held in check.


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dogghr, at what point do your random clusters become un random?

G

I certainly see good browse of MFR especially late winter and early spring. It's too over whelming too promote its growth on purpose.
AS for the Random/un random....
Do we really know what is a pattern. Is what we see a pattern, or is the pattern just a random presentation that repeats itself. Is 1+1 really equal 2 or does it do so just because we deem it as such? If my Random Clusters were prevalent across millions of acres, would they be truly random, or would they actually be a conformity of nature within the abstract? I'm not sure.
But I do know my Clusters are initially following no pattern in size or spacing, yet they can't be truly random, as I begin each in an area I think a buck would like to travel, so in that way they are random, yet my selection does have a pattern so indeed they must have some
un random pattern.
Perhaps my Random Clusters morph into a Deterministic System in which no randomness is involved in the development of future states of the system. I''m not sure but thanks for asking.

 

[dogghr]

Anyways, despite some snow I made it down to tweak some of my RandomClusters. While improving the Cluster was one purpose, this is the hard end of winter survival and putting trees on the ground gives added browse food.
This is my original hingecutting attempts began 8 yrs ago. Hard to see but most those new trees are it’s results. But these clusters are never static as the weather beats them down and new growth begins to fade them. So one must continue w the process. Although the first done this would now be RC #3 as the others evolved. A treestand sits to the left but is seldom hunted due to wind. 200 yds downwind of a plot.

This is what it looked before hinging. A mature stand of oaks. I cut any competitor of a mature oak and any tree I don’t want. If it’s real thick after cutting I’ll cut a path/sidewalk thru the cluster and it def gets used.

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[George]

So there seems to be some randomness in the term random which will suit me as I start work on my predetermined random clusters in KY.

G

 

[dogghr]

Again the Clusters don’t need be thick jst an edge created by variety. I don’t see bedding within but def on downwind edges. These beds are on the newest cluster on a ridgetop that never saw bedding. I now always jump deer from this area and it inmproved hunting of 2 stands 75 yds from this spot. Hinging is very light here at best as it takes me several years to accomplish my work.

It was this area I worked this week. You can see the open black oak forest on a dry rocky ridge It is my least fav tree to cut as they tend to be hollow and even if not tend to split and rocking chair. Don’t trust them. I usually just fell cut and still keep a wary eye. New growth will come to thicken. I didn’t expect much use of this cluster but am pleasantly surprised. You can see some of the new timber on the ground and an infamous rocking chair to the right.

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[George]

That looks like enough timber laying to heat a home for the winter. Will you make use of any of it or just leave it for the soil?

G

 

[dogghr]

They don’t all work as planned. This is #2 on a side hill point. I thot I could improve bedding area that bucks were usuing by doing some shoulder high hinging to create bedding area as I had read of a famous author. Reault is I see no bedding there at all now on this 3 yo hinging.
Now it is a good stand adjacent where I did some more hinging as I had 9 bucks on a morning hunt pass by this past yr. Missed a nice 8 over his back in a gimme shot w the recurve. But bedding....no. Sometimes deer just don’t appreciate what we do!!

Here is the treestand I nearly destroyed misjudging height of tree I cut. Hey it happens.

Other animals use clusters too evidently. Good luck guys w your efforts. There is no wrong or right way just your way.

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[dogghr]

That looks like enough timber laying to heat a home for the winter. Will you make use of any of it or just leave it for the soil?

G

Yea I make my logging buddy cry. But at this time have no choice but to cut some good timber. As I said, much of this is diseased and poor timber on this ridge. I do cut much of it for personal burning but most is left behind. This area is tough access so doubt any of what you see would be removed. Future plan will be to timber adjacent couple acres and develop an access road when I become too encumbered with age to climb the hill side. Hope that is done in the next 5 years. Plans of mice and men tho don't always work out tho.

 

[George]

Do you seng?

G

 

[dogghr]

I do not but it is big business for some in this area. Lots of laws and restrictions to prevent over harvest. Prices have been down last couple years but can at times demand some unreal dollars. I do grab a mushroom/morrel or 2 at times.

 

[George]

Do you have any evidence or problems with seng trespassers/poachers?

 

[dogghr]

Do you have any evidence or problems with seng trespassers/poachers?

I’m very lucky. No posting but know neighbors well. I keep cameras up year round and except for AEP wanting to shortcut their ROW have never had trespasser that know of. We all have agreement if shot deer crosses line we can retrieve. Never have coin hunters which are common here or bear hunters running dogs even tho it is legal on other side of road. I often leave equipment and atv sitting out w no problems. An ocassijal loose cow maybe


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[Chainsaw]

Looks like a challenging spot to find air space to drop the trees thru dogghr. Didn't know that black oak had a lot of hollow in them. Between that and the high stem count you are re-earning your wings there. As you, there have been no results to make deer bed just by high hinging here either. One hinged spot a doe group used to bed there occasionally but after hinging they used it much more.I like the structure it creates though and how the vines and such use it as a foundation to cling to. And the deer like that about it also. I'm with you though if the tree has issues, very little space to fall, dead or hollow or whatever, the standard dropping techniques are in order.

Also had some bedding creation just by dragging trees in and making structure where there was none. Tall cedars worked the best probably because they resisted rotting and thus didn't lose their structural shape. Like your new word of the day--deterministic. May never have a spot for it but like it anyhow.

 

[Triple C]

Following along dogghr. Interesting observation on the shoulder high hinging not producing the bedding mecca that it was touted to deliver. What little hinging I did years back I used that method as well. I read that deer would walk thru it if you hinged shoulder high and bed in it. Like you, seems the edges get used much more than the interior. Looking at Geo's pics, I bet he's following along as he develops his plan. Think he said he's identified 5 RC's to begin with. Interesting subject on a habitat tool that needs to be well thought through in terms of implementation. I've come to the conclusion that in our native pine/hardwood mix down south, browse and cover come naturally, particularly in planted pine once thinning begins. Explosion of browse, edge and cover in thinned rows.

Went back and found a pic I didn't delete from 2013 when I did what I'll now call my 1st random cluster. Notice the shoulder high hinges. That's now covered in all manner of vines, briars, saplings and such.

 

[dogghr]

Looks like a challenging spot to find air space to drop the trees thru dogghr. Didn't know that black oak had a lot of hollow in them. Between that and the high stem count you are re-earning your wings there. As you, there have been no results to make deer bed just by high hinging here either. One hinged spot a doe group used to bed there occasionally but after hinging they used it much more.I like the structure it creates though and how the vines and such use it as a foundation to cling to. And the deer like that about it also. I'm with you though if the tree has issues, very little space to fall, dead or hollow or whatever, the standard dropping techniques are in order.

Also had some bedding creation just by dragging trees in and making structure where there was none. Tall cedars worked the best probably because they resisted rotting and thus didn't lose their structural shape. Like your new word of the day--deterministic. May never have a spot for it but like it anyhow.

Following along dogghr. Interesting observation on the shoulder high hinging not producing the bedding mecca that it was touted to deliver. What little hinging I did years back I used that method as well. I read that deer would walk thru it if you hinged shoulder high and bed in it. Like you, seems the edges get used much more than the interior. Looking at Geo's pics, I bet he's following along as he develops his plan. Think he said he's identified 5 RC's to begin with. Interesting subject on a habitat tool that needs to be well thought through in terms of implementation. I've come to the conclusion that in our native pine/hardwood mix down south, browse and cover come naturally, particularly in planted pine once thinning begins. Explosion of browse, edge and cover in thinned rows.

Went back and found a pic I didn't delete from 2013 when I did what I'll now call my 1st random cluster. Notice the shoulder high hinges. That's now covered in all manner of vines, briars, saplings and such.
View attachment 14856

Interesting as I am not the only one that sees no/little bedding within hinge cuts. Others have said same thing. Perhaps diff habitat or tech done by others that promote it. My goal is more a travel corridor but bedding nearby is a plus. I compete with my back property owner as his land is more rugged and thicker growth and highest elevation. Several of my stands are set to catch bucks leaving his place to feed on mine. I can improve the time bucks spend on my place but his highest point is always going to attract a mature buck. The other competetor I have is across the road 100 ac that is not hunted. I consider that a plus except them having cross the highway as they enter my place. Which is why my clusters tend to be on the downwind side of my foodplots and create a travel corridor from that highway to the back ridge.

On a side note Triple, on the other thread you were talking, I too have always envisioned an entrance to my place as nice as what you had done. And I look at my cedars with the plan of one day ripping them with the chainsaw for fencing like you once showed. But it still looks like a homeless person lives here. One day. Thanks for reading.

 

[OkieKubota]

No bedding in them here either...the deer want to be able to see to get away...it seems their only advantage here is they create edge and browse.

Deer have changed their bedding habits since I was a boy. We had a nearly impenetrable mass of vines in a small area that was on the edge of a field at the base of a hill back when I was growing up on my grandparents place. The area had a name just like most everything did back in those days and was called “The Frog Pond” since the gentlemen who owned the land before my grandfather had dug a shallow pond by hand in the clay in that area and used the pond to grow bull frogs he sold to the local restaurant.This was in a time when everybody used their land and had no fear of spooking the deer off or anything like that. My grandfather hunted quail every chance he got on his 220 acres so dogs and people everywhere. That tangled mess always had deer bedded in it in the fall and we killed several doing short “drives” through it. The deer always ran to the woods/hill side and there was an old logging road just above it the stander would watch from. Usually I would ease into it from the field side and sometimes I would shoot a deer as it stood up from its bed and sometimes it would bounce out of the thicket up the hill a few yards out of my view and get shot by my cousin or my brother from the logging road...deer back then would bed in downed trees, brushy fields, tangled messes of briars, vines, and brush. Over time they have evolved into bedding in more open areas where they can see great distances and sneak out before you ever see them. Deer no longer seem to bed in the bottoms anymore either like they did when I was a boy. They want to be high as possible and having the high ground is a definite advantage but very tricky to hunt especially if your access is from the bottom...they just bounce right over the hilltop and are gone.

I think some of us have that wishful thinking that every hinge cut we do will be full of bedded deer but the reality is That a clear cut may be of better use for our time unless hinging to create a visual barrier which seems to be the best use of cutting trees to continue growing sideways I have found...

 

[George]

I know that we have made plenty of fun of deer beds and I have tried with no success to get a picture of a deer under my chest high hinge cut structures on Hickory Ridge where deer previously bed. I did often see evidence of deer bedding around the structures. Bucks bed up high over looking the ravine with the wind at their backs and often with a cedar limb over hang.





G

 

[Tap]

I believe hinging can create deer beds but not simply because we hinged there. IMO, location is far more important for bedding than cover (not talking about thermal cover in winter time). Wind patterns are just as, or more important to bed locations than cover is.
If we hinge somewhere where deer don't naturally want to bed, then our cuts won't help much to create beds. I we hinge in places where deer would like to bed, I believe hinge cutting can enhance the odds of it being a preferred bed.

 

[dogghr]

No bedding in them here either...the deer want to be able to see to get away...it seems their only advantage here is they create edge and browse.

Deer have changed their bedding habits since I was a boy. We had a nearly impenetrable mass of vines in a small area that was on the edge of a field at the base of a hill back when I was growing up on my grandparents place. The area had a name just like most everything did back in those days and was called “The Frog Pond” since the gentlemen who owned the land before my grandfather had dug a shallow pond by hand in the clay in that area and used the pond to grow bull frogs he sold to the local restaurant.This was in a time when everybody used their land and had no fear of spooking the deer off or anything like that. My grandfather hunted quail every chance he got on his 220 acres so dogs and people everywhere. That tangled mess always had deer bedded in it in the fall and we killed several doing short “drives” through it. The deer always ran to the woods/hill side and there was an old logging road just above it the stander would watch from. Usually I would ease into it from the field side and sometimes I would shoot a deer as it stood up from its bed and sometimes it would bounce out of the thicket up the hill a few yards out of my view and get shot by my cousin or my brother from the logging road...deer back then would bed in downed trees, brushy fields, tangled messes of briars, vines, and brush. Over time they have evolved into bedding in more open areas where they can see great distances and sneak out before you ever see them. Deer no longer seem to bed in the bottoms anymore either like they did when I was a boy. They want to be high as possible and having the high ground is a definite advantage but very tricky to hunt especially if your access is from the bottom...they just bounce right over the hilltop and are gone.

I think some of us have that wishful thinking that every hinge cut we do will be full of bedded deer but the reality is That a clear cut may be of better use for our time unless hinging to create a visual barrier which seems to be the best use of cutting trees to continue growing sideways I have found...

I agree, Okie, deer have certainly modified there behavior in a lot of ways. I think presence of natural predators in numbers that didn't used to exist has had more influence in that adaptation than mans involvement. Intro of wolves in Yellowstone area proves that in the Elk have a much different pattern for hunters there than prior wolf. Same here as everything from bear to bobcat to coyote to eagles now affect a deers survival instincts.

I know that we have made plenty of fun of deer beds and I have tried with no success to get a picture of a deer under my chest high hinge cut structures on Hickory Ridge where deer previously bed. I did often see evidence of deer bedding around the structures. Bucks bed up high over looking the ravine with the wind at their backs and often with a cedar limb over hang.

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View attachment 14864

G

I agree. But we so far haven't brought deer into the bedroom here in these mountains, just the occassional sheep!!

I believe hinging can create deer beds but not simply because we hinged there. IMO, location is far more important for bedding than cover (not talking about thermal cover in winter time). Wind patterns are just as, or more important to bed locations than cover is.
If we hinge somewhere where deer don't naturally want to bed, then our cuts won't help much to create beds. I we hinge in places where deer would like to bed, I believe hinge cutting can enhance the odds of it being a preferred bed.

100% agree. But there are those authors out there that claim otherwise. I don't see it.

 

[Native Hunter]

I think if a buck has the choice of bedding on the military crest of a ridge where the wind is correct, he will choose it over most anything. However, that doesn't exist everywhere. So, they will choose whatever gives them the best chance of escaping predators - including man.

 

[BenAllgood]

Random Clusters - really similar to what the MSU Deer Lab is finding for "focal areas".
http://extension.msstate.edu/deer-u...ode-030-buck-movement-patterns-during-the-rut
They dive into these focal areas at about 45 minutes.