Dogghr's Theory of Random Clusters or Hinge Cutting Manipulation

[lakngolf]

I cannot solve or explain the math equation (although a math major before computers and smart phones), but I wish to offer to the group a semi-blank canvas to apply it. A very small property that is home to a good many deer, but deer who know the safety of darkness. Every now and then a nice buck will make a mistake, but even the big does outsmart most hunters, especially me this year.
So here is the canvas:


What to do? Random Cluster material or too small? Below I will include a wide angle picture for perspective. South border is all Talladega National Forest. The main center portion was all pasture until about 10-12 years ago. I have various "clusters" of sawtooth and pear planted, and it is home to some natural persimmon. Soil is good and grows a mean Food Plot, was limed last February. I have tried to approach by providing sanctuary on West and East. The East is coming along but several good sawtooth there also. The West side (left above) is big woods with unbelievable year round springs. I thought leaving it would provide good better for the deer but I have never seen a deer in the woods, nor have I had one come from the wood/spring area. The springs start at the north end of woods and flow out southwest corner of property.
Here is a wider view, showing neighbors and National Forest.




Some healthy deer hang around, but only venture out at night. The food plots make it too easy for them to find food.




So, I want one of those healthy does in my freezer, and those tall brow tines on my grandson's wall. How we gonna make it happen? The only equation I know is Pi R Squared!

 

[Jack Terpack]

I cannot solve or explain the math equation (although a math major before computers and smart phones), but I wish to offer to the group a semi-blank canvas to apply it. A very small property that is home to a good many deer, but deer who know the safety of darkness. Every now and then a nice buck will make a mistake, but even the big does outsmart most hunters, especially me this year.
So here is the canvas:
View attachment 14641

We have a smallish area, about 2 acres, that sounds about the same as this. It is surrounded on three sides by mature open woods and on the fourth side by a pasture. We planted all kinds of brassicas, clovers, wheat and beans here but only get action well after dark. A couple years ago one of our younger hunters got a mixture of seed given to him and planted it. It consisted of several unknown kinds of sunflowers, millets and corn. All grow only about 4 feet tall. We spread the seed lightly in some areas but rather heavily in others. Suddenly almost every doe in the area started using the area all day long. I think they wanted the security of feeling like they were hidden. The entire area is now one of our most productive hunting sights. Seems strange that what appears to be rather light cover to me made such a huge diffence to the deer.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I have to admit, except for one, I've never had any consistant bedding within a cut. Along the edges yes, but never within. I tried doing the cut high, stack them on each other so they can walk underneath like some suggest and it made no diff. But I agree, they do like areas wind protected and sun oriented in the wintertime.

Well there you go. They say math is an absolute with no variances thus no argument of correct or wrong. And your equation is simpler. I agree with the sight distance idea regardless. Does he do so in summer or late winter, huge difference on most properties?

Winter or summer? Let me start here: an NRCS document FOREST STAND DENSITY GUIDE, by Lyn R. Townsend, State Staff Forester states; Improperly managed forests are commonly too densely or too sparsely stocked with trees. I'm a big proponent of this school of thought, as mentioned, I advocate not having touching crowns to allow sunlight to the forest floor, but close to this spacing at maturity, to maximize the value of the forest for growing trees, while also having cover below for wildlife. A formerly wooded brushy area without trees can still be a great wildlife habitat area, but is good for very little otherwise. The same brushy area could potentially be growing a nice crop of trees for fruit, nuts and/or timber value, and still be the same thick brush at the understory level as long as the sun can reach the understory. So, back to your question, winter or summer line of sight distance? To give deer enough security to hold them, the measurements should be taken in the winter, and your random clusters of brush should be thick enough and wide enough so that you cannot see through them from one side to the other during the winter months when the leaves are down. Of course there are many variables, but I'd say standing right at the edge of the thickest areas of winter cover for deer sight distances of thirty feet and less is great, sight distances of over one hundred feet means the cover is getting thin.

 

[Mennoniteman]

I cannot solve or explain the math equation (although a math major before computers and smart phones), but I wish to offer to the group a semi-blank canvas to apply it. A very small property that is home to a good many deer, but deer who know the safety of darkness. Every now and then a nice buck will make a mistake, but even the big does outsmart most hunters, especially me this year.
So here is the canvas:
View attachment 14641

What to do? Random Cluster material or too small? Below I will include a wide angle picture for perspective. South border is all Talladega National Forest. The main center portion was all pasture until about 10-12 years ago. I have various "clusters" of sawtooth and pear planted, and it is home to some natural persimmon. Soil is good and grows a mean Food Plot, was limed last February. I have tried to approach by providing sanctuary on West and East. The East is coming along but several good sawtooth there also. The West side (left above) is big woods with unbelievable year round springs. I thought leaving it would provide good better for the deer but I have never seen a deer in the woods, nor have I had one come from the wood/spring area. The springs start at the north end of woods and flow out southwest corner of property.
Here is a wider view, showing neighbors and National Forest.
View attachment 14642

Some healthy deer hang around, but only venture out at night. The food plots make it too easy for them to find food.
View attachment 14643

View attachment 14644

So, I want one of those healthy does in my freezer, and those tall brow tines on my grandson's wall. How we gonna make it happen? The only equation I know is Pi R Squared!

I have a real equation that will work for your property; COVER(X)FOOD(-)PRESSURE(=)DEAD DEER. I used to have the same problem at the one place I hunt, small acreage, lots of deer, lots of good cover, good food sources, but deer moving only after dark. Now I can put the does in my freezer and my son gets the big buck with his bow. We always shower, always freshly washed camo, only hunt the edges, only on the right wind, only once a week (oftener if rut), only at stands that we can access without spooking deer. I've got to preach this to my son every year, young boys always want to hunt, no matter what. The above conversations about food and cover are all good. But you've got to keep the pressure down to see deer. I plan these hunts into small acreage same as a trophy hunt into the wilderness, or like a doctor performs a surgery, very precisely. And every year that a hunter hunts the same area gets better than the year before, the first years it's like stabbing in the dark, after ten years you know exactly when, where and how to set up to make it happen. A good equation would be; HUNTING TODAY(X)PRIOR EXPERIENCE ON PROPERTY²(=)SUCCESS. There's a certain spot on that place that you need to set up to consistently kill deer, and is usually is the same spot from year to year. I enjoy the challenge of hunting small properties like that, there's guys that shoot archery deer all the time in 1-2 acre woods right behind buildings. Good luck with that place!

 

[dogghr]

I cannot solve or explain the math equation (although a math major before computers and smart phones), but I wish to offer to the group a semi-blank canvas to apply it. A very small property that is home to a good many deer, but deer who know the safety of darkness. Every now and then a nice buck will make a mistake, but even the big does outsmart most hunters, especially me this year.
So here is the canvas:
View attachment 14641

What to do? Random Cluster material or too small? Below I will include a wide angle picture for perspective. South border is all Talladega National Forest. The main center portion was all pasture until about 10-12 years ago. I have various "clusters" of sawtooth and pear planted, and it is home to some natural persimmon. Soil is good and grows a mean Food Plot, was limed last February. I have tried to approach by providing sanctuary on West and East. The East is coming along but several good sawtooth there also. The West side (left above) is big woods with unbelievable year round springs. I thought leaving it would provide good better for the deer but I have never seen a deer in the woods, nor have I had one come from the wood/spring area. The springs start at the north end of woods and flow out southwest corner of property.
Here is a wider view, showing neighbors and National Forest.
View attachment 14642

Some healthy deer hang around, but only venture out at night. The food plots make it too easy for them to find food.
View attachment 14643

View attachment 14644

So, I want one of those healthy does in my freezer, and those tall brow tines on my grandson's wall. How we gonna make it happen? The only equation I know is Pi R Squared!

Im always thinking how the buck is going to scent ck for sex covering as much ground as he can and not exposing himself to danger. There fore most but not all my RCs are the prominent downwind side of my plots. I seldom hunt plots but only within the wood 1-400 yds off the plot.
On your place Lakn, sight unseen take this for what its worth, I'm thinking the buck path I want is left to right assuming north is up in pic. I would log/hinge or create RCs for simplicity and create by cutting or spraying a deer sidewalk that will lead them along the property with in the wood, passing downwind and south of plots to the east side upside down T created by the wood. There in the woods, not hunting the fields, I would make my bet in the rut for passage of a buck looking for a one night stand. At that juncture, he can continue off the land or up along the east cut where I def would have RCs with a sidewalk cut into them with my next fav stand location at the top of that junction. And you may already have done this. And I think you've answered your own question, the western open wood is too open.
I think you have to do as I do, let the other hunters work the deer to your place then hunt accordingly. When my adjacent hunters. don't show, hunting is much harder for me.
But I'd draw a line thru the wood from upper left, down along bottom, to lower right, then back up and along that, cut or hinge or all the above a pathway of edge for them to follow. You know I'd be doing the clusters, no doubt.

 

[lakngolf]

You surely might be onto something there. In previous years this has been a spot where deer show up. I had let the pasture pretty much grow up around the sawtooth and pear trees. Lots of tall dog fennel, thick stickers and the like. I remember having to tell grandsons to wait until the deer cleared the dog fennel before shooting.
Well, my new neighbor bought a brand new John Deere with a ManSize bush hog. He looked for anywhere and everywhere to try it out last summer. My pastures look smooth and clear again. This year they grow back to nasty, and I will try the additional tall plants in the food plot. Thanks for the idea.

 

[lakngolf]

I have a real equation that will work for your property; COVER(X)FOOD(-)PRESSURE(=)DEAD DEER. A good equation would be; HUNTING TODAY(X)PRIOR EXPERIENCE ON PROPERTY²(=)SUCCESS. There's a certain spot on that place that you need to set up to consistently kill deer, and is usually is the same spot from year to year. I enjoy the challenge of hunting small properties like that, there's guys that shoot archery deer all the time in 1-2 acre woods right behind buildings. Good luck with that place!

Thanks for the ideas. The two stands we hunt this property are easily accessible without spooking or educating the deer. But we do have much pressure all around, and we need to pay attention to our habits as well. Eleven year old wants to bow hunt next year so I will place some ladder stands close to the National Forest, and around persimmon trees.

 

[lakngolf]

Im always thinking how the buck is going to scent ck for sex covering as much ground as he can and not exposing himself to danger. There fore most but not all my RCs are the prominent downwind side of my plots. I seldom hunt plots but only within the wood 1-400 yds off the plot.
On your place Lakn, sight unseen take this for what its worth, I'm thinking the buck path I want is left to right assuming north is up in pic. I would log/hinge or create RCs for simplicity and create by cutting or spraying a deer sidewalk that will lead them along the property with in the wood, passing downwind and south of plots to the west side upside down T created by the wood. There in the woods, not hunting the fields, I would make my bet in the rut for passage of a buck looking for a one night stand. At that juncture, he can continue off the land or up along the west cut where I def would have RCs with a sidewalk cut into them with my next fav stand location at the top of that junction. And you may already have done this. And I think you've answered your own question, the eastern open wood is too open.
I think you have to do as I do, let the other hunters work the deer to your place then hunt accordingly. When my adjacent hunters. don't show, hunting is much harder for me.
But I'd draw a line thru the wood from upper left, down along bottom, to lower right, then back up and along that, cut or hinge or all the above a pathway of edge for them to follow. You know I'd be doing the clusters, no doubt.

I'm gonna read this several times and make it happen! I am looking at ways to move the food plot farther away from the National Forest, although some of the best soil is along that border. It would be better to be nasty cover than clover. I want to do something with the wooded spring area, and may create one small bow hunting plot in it, along with some serious hinging.

BTW, I have updated one of the pictures with the actual WIDE angle view. I grabbed the wrong one on initial post.
Thanks for your help.

 

[dogghr]

I'm gonna read this several times and make it happen! I am looking at ways to move the food plot farther away from the National Forest, although some of the best soil is along that border. It would be better to be nasty cover than clover. I want to do something with the wooded spring area, and may create one small bow hunting plot in it, along with some serious hinging.

BTW, I have updated one of the pictures with the actual WIDE angle view. I grabbed the wrong one on initial post.
Thanks for your help.

If I remember your land beginning on the old thread, you have really transformed the fields from the beginning. I think maybe you took step back with your friends bushhog but I bet it bounces back quick. I corrected some east and west mistakes in my post , I was half asleep I think. The property edge on the left/west side may hunt good rather quickly after some TSI if you have hunters who tend to push deer your way and they are moving to feed or eventually sceotcheck. I think they will like cover and the seeps in that area. And maybe an addition to your fields may be in just the safe factor of allowing browse to regrow in the fields. I still love that lower right inside corner staying within the wood, especially late mornings in the rut in a NW wind. Chainsaw may be a good source for the sidewalk theory of Steve B, who by the way does post some good stuff on his FB page. Good luck, I'm excited for you, you always have some great deer.

 

[Chainsaw]

Lak, I have very little experience with property of the type that you are working with and what happens here in northern New York may not be at all relevant in your part of the country. With that said here is my best shot on the subject based on experience here. I have a finger of property that is twenty acres in size that juts out between two heavily hunted neighboring lands that could be compared to your property under discussion. A camera set within fifty yards of the wooded side of a neighboring land showed four different bucks regularly moving during daylight from Oct 8 to Oct. 17 (four days into muzzle loader season).The camera took 40 deer pictures on in the woods deer trails in those nine days , 26 daytime and 14 night time. There were three definite shooter bucks among the 26 daylight pictures. The next camera pull was 10/17 to 10/23. The picture score then was 5 daytime pics with zero bucks and 18 night time pics which included the same three shooter bucks that had been daytime active during early bow and the first three days of muzzle loader. Thus the time to hunt that property was definitely not after the fourth day of muzzle loader.

The second opportunity to score in that area came later in the season. My buddy Roger took a 203 lb dressed buck there November 6 and the cameras showed very little daytime movement until then. And then again around November 18, a doe in heat that bedded there gave about three days of steady buck movement around her bedding area which is pictured on my property thread. So based on this it appears that early hunting through the first three days of hunting is time well spent, after that one must pick their days to coincide with the onset of the rut and then the presence of an estrus doe.

We have bedding areas, deer paths and food lots in that section but if we don't it during the very few critical days that the deer are daytime active there we would not see a deer. Further if we hunt it when they are not daytime active then they smell our daytime presence that night when they come thru.

In looking at your pics it would be nice to see screening to break up the openings. On our property I have not seen any benefit to seeing past thirty or forty yards when hunting in good wind days. The screening promotes daytime activity IF there is zero hunting pressure. The best time to shoot doe in that property if I want to shoot a buck is just after the buck has been hit. If I shoot does there first, then the chances of shooting a buck are diminished.

As Dogghr suggested a trail running in the woods off the ends of the open areas would be a good setup. Also lots of food in the open areas with heavy cover (cluster type) in the woods would encourage does to bed and if they were only hunted early and then left alone until the magic days of rut they would be there to draw bucks during the magic rutting period where bucks might let their guard down a little.

It really is all about timing versus time spent at least here. So that Lak is how it works here and all that may not apply to your spot;I really have no clue how deer there might act but wanted to share what they do here in case it might reinforce something you are thinking there.

 

[dogghr]

On your sidewalks Chainsaw, do they typically follow topography deer love or do you actually force them to travel as you choose?
Technically I guess I use sidewalks in my Clusters especially the larger one as deer don't like to have a ton of debris to navigate I think for fear of predator escape. I simply cut a 2 foot wide channel for which them to follow which usually coincides with my stand placement. These channels tend to be in my older RCs that have slowly expanded in size over the years but which I would hope to have in each as time goes by.
With time, I would expect my RCs to be pretty much connected to one another making a path of edge conitoujs from first to last one. To me that accomplishes same thing as logging operation making their choice of pathway, especially if one does them in relation to diff flora edges, such as conifer/hardwood, and topography.

 

[Chainsaw]

Yes and no Dogghr. They typically follow topography that BUCKS would follow anyhow and forcing them to turn and such is not never done but rare. Many parts of the paths I put in and maintain were already there; those running from one new food plot complex to another were not. Outside corner food plots are built like a turn style to attempt to steer the buck back onto another path that will keep him on the property versus having him continue on to other properties. There is little forcing about it; rather the paths are giving the bucks an option to continue following the sidewalk from the inside bar full of girls to the porch full of girls and then further onto the beach full of girls and then into another food plot complex also full of girls. In one section of a buck "sidewalk" which is like a long narrow food plot used to turn the deer, the buck sidewalk had to be installed kind of close to the property line in order to have a necessary bedding clump bedding in it's center. There I paid the skidder operator to pull stumps out of ground as well as large pole size trees from where a nearby plot complex was to be created. He them placed them parallel to the property line so the deer would not cross and no one can see in. If a deer just had to he could get through but they don't bother except in one spot where the barrier is a little weak. So yes in that case they are lightly "forced".

The ideal setup is to have bedding in and around the food complex so you have does there practically 24/7. In the case of Lak's example possibly three separate bedding spots could be set up to "house" two or three different doe groups.

Regarding all the trails being completed on my property, it is an ongoing effort. The logging operation especially in the western end of the property helped greatly in opening up the main paths there;I designed and flagged the main skidder trails to match up with Steve's plan wherever it was "skidder friendly" to do that.

 

[dogghr]

Very good Chainsaw, we are doing the same thing with slight variation. Mine are def scent related to my string of food plots and I have to some extent except for one RC on ridge have followed path bucks would want to travel with a little tweaking. Gets back to the three S's, Sustenance , Safety, and Sex. Thanks.

 

[lakngolf]

...the inside bar full of girls to the porch full of girls and then further onto the beach full of girls ..

OK. OK. I am getting the picture now. I need a Bar, a Porch, a Beach......and a LOT of girls. I'm on it!!
I'm gonna find couple of pictures of this pasture from few years back. It was nasty, and that helped the girls arrive in day time. Right at the line between nasty pasture and Natl Forest wood line I always mowed a strip, just because. Indeed I will also find pics of two bucks that Alan got in January that basically followed that strip, walking from west to east (left to right on picture above).
We will get back to that scenario as soon as possible, along with some massive work in the West woods and thickening the East. I may cut some big logs and place along the Natl Forest line so that once bucks are inside my property (on that strip) they cannot easily jump back into forest!
Yall keep them cards and letters coming. Thanks dogghr and Chainsaw

 

[j-bird]

Now I'm traumatized. You're talking to a guy that just found out that πr² is not part of a sheetcake recipe.

I agree...pie are ROUND...not square!

 

[lakngolf]

I have not found pics I'm looking for but did find this one. Jack has listened to me discuss the difference in a clean pasture and let I grow. I showed him this picture
Poppa: Jack what is different in this picture than today?
Jack: The bushes

 

[lakngolf]

This is what it looked like before

 

[ChadS]

I do not mean to hijack this thread, but this is EXACTLY what I am going to try and create on 18 acres I just added to our Farm.

The Purple area is 18 acres of crop field that I want to create "PODS" in along with some food plots.

I would luv to get some white spruce going for screening and thermal cover, but will be a slow go, as I will need to cage everything.

I am hoping to plant the "PODS" with a variety of things (Crab Apples, Elderberry, Ninebark, Sumac, Pussy Willow) and letting the rest go with the exception of some paths and trying to get some various Nut trees going along the way ( Chestnut, Turkey Oak, Cherry) for the Long term and just for fun.

Blue area is a Low wet spot that may become a pond some day.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tap]

Could your theory be expanded to include other things besides just hinging? I'm talking about items to draw their attention - like small food plots scattered at different places, salt licks scattered around, licking branch locations, fruit tree pockets, etc....

Kind of like an amusement park... Or perhaps a better analogy - like the party guys skipping around town from bar to bar.

Very similar to the Tony Lapratt approach.

 

[Native Hunter]

Very similar to the Tony Lapratt approach.

Tap, all I know about Tony is what little I've heard him mentioned on the forums. I do believe in what I call the "Amusement Park" approach. Is there a place where you can read about his theories?